Potential Grand Union stock?

[jackot]

Just as a point of order, and I can only talk for the 755s, but they are more than capable of 100mph on diesel, both the /4 which has a 4 engine power car, and the /3 which has only a 2 engine power car!

In that case that power car might just be enough, although if it were to be 5 car (+ powerpack), it may be quite a bit underpowered with the current 4 engine power car.

 

[rustbucket]

In that case that power car might just be enough, although if it were to be 5 car (+ powerpack), it may be quite a bit underpowered with the current 4 engine power car.

Unlikely I’d say - the 4 cars are ridiculously quick

 

[lincolnshire]

One of the advantages Lumo had was being able to borrow 80x units from elsewhere for driver training which meant they could start running as soon as their 803s were ready.

I can't see Grand Union getting access to a 80x unit to do this (unless some operator returns 80x units to a leasing company somehow).

Lumo was lucky and used Hull trains units to teach there staff on as at the time they was running a reduced timetable due to Covid and had spare stock. It also helped with it been another First Rail company.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, I can see that a more “off the shelf” product would be better in the sense of getting them in service quicker, I grant you. It’s a real shame that the Hitachi is the go to high speed product now, and nothing else will seemingly be looked at for a generation. I suppose it was the same with the HST back in the day.

Just as a point of order, and I can only talk for the 755s, but they are more than capable of 100mph on diesel, both the /4 which has a 4 engine power car, and the /3 which has only a 2 engine power car!

The only off the shelf product which has a modern TMS system compatible with ATP is the 80x fleets. Anything else would need development on how a modern TMS works with a late 80 / early 90s ATP system.

 

[43096]

The only off the shelf product which has a modern TMS system compatible with ATP is the 80x fleets. Anything else would need development on how a modern TMS works with a late 80 / early 90s ATP system.

You wouldn’t fit GW-ATP to another design, you’d fit ETCS and a STM to convert the GW-ATP inputs.

 

[Bob Price]

There was talk that they would start off just from Cardiff and extend elsewhere later, possibly once they have their bimode stock. They could start the service just using anything in the short term.

 

[43102EMR]

I'd go for meridians as XC already have 220 and 221 so it would make sense for them to have the AWC stock, not introduce set length confusion. If DfT doesn'y approve the AWC stock, theyre unlikely to approve 222s unless the rosco give them away.

So, to me, it sounds like 222s for GU

XC have been publicly given the option to use the 222s by the DfT, whereas nothing has been said about the Avanti 221s, so I’d say GU are more likely to take on the latter.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

And just to add a spanner into the works, how about some 180s? They already have ATP, and some might just be available in time to use until some IETs are ready. Not the greenest option mind you, but it doesn't stop Grand Central

This would be my suspicion too. EMR won’t need the 180s once the 810s start to enter service next year (?). It makes EMR’s fleet simpler and solves the ATP issue.

 

[43102EMR]

This would be my suspicion too. EMR won’t need the 180s once the 810s start to enter service next year (?). It makes EMR’s fleet simpler and solves the ATP issue.

Evidently EMR are keeping their 180s once the 810s are introduced.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Evidently EMR are keeping their 180s once the 810s are introduced.

In the brave new world of DfT-enforced cuts? I wouldn’t be so sure.

 

[sefyllian]

In the decision and related correspondence, Grand Union have ruled out using existing stock, and will be using new-build bi-mode trains from the start (so presumably 80x)

While it had always been our intention to introduce the new service in two parts, initially using cascaded rolling stock, it has become increasingly clear that suitable ‘off lease’ rolling stock would be difficult to obtain in the timescales envisaged. The loss of significant time during the pandemic has seen much of the IC225 fleet we had hoped to acquire go from storage for breaking, and while a number of vehicles are still operational there is little prospect of them becoming available within the time we had identified.

As a result, Grand Union has made some significant changes to its Form P submission to withdraw the first phase Cardiff services and instead seek access rights for the full service using new build from the beginning. Delivery times for new build will ultimately depend on the chosen manufacturer, but we are advised this could be between 24 and 36 months from order. As a result, Grand Union is now targeting service introduction within the timetable that starts in December 2024.

 

[43102EMR]

In the brave new world of DfT-enforced cuts? I wouldn’t be so sure.

It was stated in an interview with EMR’s head of fleet in Modern Railways a couple of months ago, so I’d say I’m pretty sure…

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was stated in an interview with EMR’s head of fleet in Modern Railways a couple of months ago, so I’d say I’m pretty sure…

More recently there was a cryptic "a TOC that thought it was keeping certain units for a while won't be any more"...unless that was GWR and HSTs it could be EMR and these...

 

[Trainbike46]

I'd imagine a total destruction order could be placed on those as they leave service.

why would they do that? Does the DfT care whether the old HSTs get send for scrap, used by a non-DfT operator, or exported abroad? I doubt it.

Which isn't to say that scrap isn't by far the most likely outcome, but specific orders mandating it seem unlikely.

 

[Deepgreen]

There are a number of trains in front of them at Hitachi, then they need to be tested and after that driver training. It's about the time it takes in real life.

Well it looks as if they are the planned stock, so they must know they can acquire new units from somewhere by 2024, if not from the production line.

 

[43102EMR]

More recently there was a cryptic "a TOC that thought it was keeping certain units for a while won't be any more"...unless that was GWR and HSTs it could be EMR and these...

This isn’t necessarily a like-for-like situation as the timetable for the West Country regional services is being slashed to the bone, which is enabling the phased withdrawal of the Castle Sets - meanwhile the MML timetable is **expected** to stay the same, especially as it’s a key Intercity route…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This isn’t necessarily a like-for-like situation as the timetable for the West Country regional services is being slashed to the bone, which is enabling the phased withdrawal of the Castle Sets - meanwhile the MML timetable is **expected** to stay the same, especially as it’s a key Intercity route…

Incorrect - the West Country regional services are not being “slashed to the bone” just the motive power is changing from Castle HST to 80x, it it’s a like for like replacement with regard to the diagrams and service patterns.

 

[Snow1964]

Would it be possible to get some of the existing order of 805 or 807 if they are ordering them. Not taking over the order, but the build sequence swapped around so a few are made for Grand Union before the final ones for current order delivered.

If it is just interior spec that differs, and bodyshells, bogies and all the powered bits identical then not impractical unless the current orders all needed by certain dates.

I am thinking back to the desiro fleet, Angel ordered 25 dual voltage units speculatively, 3 were built, next 19 were converted to become part of SWT class 450 order, other 3 got moved to back of build queue and became part of subsequent order. The AC equipment already ordered ending up on 350s or 360s. So not like hasn’t been swaps between ordered batches before.

 

[43102EMR]

Incorrect - the West Country regional services are not being “slashed to the bone” just the motive power is changing from Castle HST to 80x, it it’s a like for like replacement with regard to the diagrams and service patterns.

Incorrect - over the next few years, there will be some reductions to make up for the shortfall of HSTs i.e. the cutback of Penzance to Cardiff services… it just isn’t happening straight away. Not all services will be replaced by 80X, some will be by some of the DMU fleet also, presumably 158s.

 

[david1212]

This isn’t necessarily a like-for-like situation as the timetable for the West Country regional services is being slashed to the bone, which is enabling the phased withdrawal of the Castle Sets - meanwhile the MML timetable is **expected** to stay the same, especially as it’s a key Intercity route…

Incorrect - the West Country regional services are not being “slashed to the bone” just the motive power is changing from Castle HST to 80x, it it’s a like for like replacement with regard to the diagrams and service patterns.

Regardless the Castle sets will be going spare. Could they be reformed to 5/6+2 as a stop-gap starter until new stock, which logically will be Hitachi IET based, is delivered, commissioned and staff trained ?

 

[RobShipway]

I do not see Grand Union needing the entire fleet of class 222 trains. So I can see the 4 class 222/0 which are 7 cars per set going to Grand Union, with the 23 5 car sets being used to replace class 156/158 units at EMR. Which would mean that the AWC 221's going to XC.

The 4 class 222/0 would be used until a dedicated fleet of 8XX could be brought into the GU fleet.

If GWR still require, some units I can see the class 158 units from EMR at this point possibly joining their fleet.

 

[Bob Price]

Heard through a Twitter chat that these services may be operated by TfW on behalf of GU. So staff and trains supplied via TfW. Still don't get how they will get brand new 800 series units in 24 months when they are behind EMR and Aventi in the queue.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd imagine a total destruction order could be placed on those as they leave service.

And rightfully so. They're completely past it. Using those (I assume you'd use two lots of Castle rakes to make an eight carriage set) would be an awful first impression to any non-enthusiasts using the service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2022 ==

Well, there is one TOC who's got some on order that is looking rather likely not to be able to use them any time soon...

You've made comments like this hundreds of times and it baffles me. Grand Union is set to start in Dec 24/early 25. Are you seriously suggesting Avanti West Coast will have a severely reduced service for the next three years??

Edit: Pardon me, I misread the post and thought you suggested the Avanti fleet for Grand Union's passenger services, not one unit for training. Apologies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2022 ==

Would it be possible to get some of the existing order of 805 or 807 if they are ordering them. Not taking over the order, but the build sequence swapped around so a few are made for Grand Union before the final ones for current order delivered.

Why should Grand Union get to jump the queue? Specifically - jump the queue as an additional Open Access Operator, in front of a contracted Franchised (or whatever they are nowadays, you know what I mean) TOC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Edit: Pardon me, I misread the post and thought you suggested the Avanti fleet for Grand Union's passenger services, not one unit for training. Apologies.

Correct. I was suggesting the loan of one of the completed 805s for training purposes once it's completed testing.

I do think there's a chance the 807 services will never launch, though (these are all additional), i.e. that Avanti won't ever introduce the second Liverpool or the Birmingham semifast. If that's the case their existing fleet plus the 805s replacing the Voyagers will suffice. That's why I've suggested in the past that Lumo might be interested in taking those instead. They wouldn't suit GU as they appear to want/need bi-modes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Heard through a Twitter chat that these services may be operated by TfW on behalf of GU. So staff and trains supplied via TfW. Still don't get how they will get brand new 800 series units in 24 months when they are behind EMR and Aventi in the queue.

Presumably though to meet any financial viability they would need to be operated in a similar way to Lumo - DOO to keep the operational costs down. As TfW doesn’t do DOO that would somewhat increase costs!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Could they be reformed to 5/6+2 as a stop-gap starter until new stock, which logically will be Hitachi IET based, is delivered, commissioned and staff trained ?

Just to add that Grand Union intended to have three classes of travel - Standard Economy, Standard and First Class, so I'm not sure how feasible a train of only 5 carriages would be. 3 coaches of standard class on a GWML express service will be swamped.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

And rightfully so. They're completely past it. Using those (I assume you'd use two lots of Castle rakes to make an eight carriage set) would be an awful first impression to any non-enthusiasts using the service.

HSTs seem to have a very rose tinted view on here. Yes the mk3 coach rides very smoothly but nearly everything else about them is somewhat dated to the average passenger

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All this obsession with new AT300 stock seems to have come from the fact most operators have plumped for Hitachi lately, but has it actually been confirmed that Grand Union want those specifically? Only it's been publicised that they're collaborating with Renfe, and I somehow just can't see Renfe recommending Hitachi stock. As specified before, they seem to plump for CAF or Talgo, perhaps unsurprisingly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2022 ==

HSTs seem to have a very rose tinted view on here. Yes the mk3 coach rides very smoothly but nearly everything else about them is somewhat dated to the average passenger

I very much agree with you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All this obsession with new AT300 stock seems to have come from the fact most operators have plumped for Hitachi lately, but has it actually been confirmed that Grand Union want those specifically? Only it's been publicised that they're collaborating with Renfe, and I somehow just can't see Renfe recommending Hitachi stock. As specified before, they seem to plump for CAF or Talgo, perhaps unsurprisingly.

Neither CAF nor Talgo has a currently available UK bi-mode high speed unit, though. Open access operations don't have years to spend developing and testing something new. Thus it will be something off the shelf, i.e. either Hitachi or Stadler, most probably Hitachi.

 

[Bob Price]

All this obsession with new AT300 stock seems to have come from the fact most operators have plumped for Hitachi lately, but has it actually been confirmed that Grand Union want those specifically? Only it's been publicised that they're collaborating with Renfe, and I somehow just can't see Renfe recommending Hitachi stock. As specified before, they seem to plump for CAF or Talgo, perhaps unsurprisingly.

Good point. I am not sure how far through the 197 order the Newport factory is, but could a long distance bi mode version of the Civity be an option built in Wales and maintained at a CAF TFW depot?