Iskra
Established Member
That would be a sensible first step.
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Potential reopening of the Wortley Curve
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That would be a sensible first step.
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Or look at the Barnsley option as I suggested via a reinstated curve at Horbury.
Bradford for its size isn't particularly well connected rail but then it probably suffers from the fact its close to Leeds and parts of Bradford are within easy commuting distance to Leeds. I live nearer to Bradford than Leeds but there is only a couple of miles in it so I go to Leeds mainly and hardly ever go to Bradford especially to catch a train.
I can see why there does want to improvements in connectivity to Bradford but I think the only serious potential for that is NPR. Possibly in the longer term there might be some benefits to reopening Wortley Curve but I'm not sure Sheffield and the East Midlands is that high priority it needs to miss Leeds.
As operated by Grand Central, I presume?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
The point you are missing, perhaps willfully considering your final paragraph, is that the operators and (I suspect) most passengers wont want to miss out Leeds. It is where the coin is!
Isn’t there a point where the corridor is reasonably provisioned and the coin of providing additional services on the corridors do not outweigh shortening journey times on other corridors? We already have 4 tph Bradford - Leeds and 5? tph Wakefield Westgate to Leeds in normal circumstances. Looking at the current route planning available, someone in Bradford is losing a good 20 minutes if they are heading to Wakefield.
Looking at a post HS2 and potentially NPR world, it still doesn’t feel like it stacks up unless the view is that Leeds station won’t be able to accommodate more trains on these corridors.
Looking at a post HS2 and potentially NPR world, it still doesn’t feel like it stacks up unless the view is that Leeds station won’t be able to accommodate more trains on these corridors.
Yes, I take your point about the Leeds coin.
However, what about the potential coin on direct Bradford to Wakefield, Sheffield, Nottingham trains?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Limited. That's the issue.
I thought that the lines northward out of Sheffield were a bottleneck where it was hard to fit any new services in, which would cause problems for any proposal to bring in a Sheffield to Bradford service unless it was an extension of an existing Leeds service.
(Indeed, is that why the original Northern Connect idea of re-routing the Nottingham to Leeds service via Wakefield Westgate and extending it to Bradford hasn't happened yet? The idea was to maintain the current frequency on the route via Barnsley and Kirkgate, so it would have meant an extra service between Sheffield and Meadowhall.)
(Indeed, is that why the original Northern Connect idea of re-routing the Nottingham to Leeds service via Wakefield Westgate and extending it to Bradford hasn't happened yet? The idea was to maintain the current frequency on the route via Barnsley and Kirkgate, so it would have meant an extra service between Sheffield and Meadowhall.)
The only half-way significant flows this might cater for would be Bradford and Halifax to Wakefield. But the journey time and frequency would compare unfavorably with changing at Leeds.
The clue as to why this idea has resurfaced lies in the resentment felt in the other West Yorkshire centres to the prominence and comparative richness of Leeds. A century ago, Bradford was among the richest cities in the world. Today, and not least because it has a very well connected single city centre rail station, Leeds eclipses every other west Yorks city as a financial and shopping centre. There are objectively fewer reasons to travel to - and much less through - Bradford than Leeds. That problem won't be significantly influenced by reopening the Wortley curve. The line was abandoned as its only train of the day was dropped. I seem also to recall that the tracks were then significantly realigned when the curve was severed and when the viaduct line into Leeds was abandoned.
Bradford will push very hard for the new transpennine line to serve it. That is its only hope of significantly better transport links.
Wharfe106
Member
Some of the doomsters and Jeremiahs on this forum are more than depressing, why not support an innovative, quick win proposal, why waste typing fingers being negative.
Some posters have hit the nail on head. Bradford is a major city with dreadful rail links except east-west: it very much needs all the regeneration help it can get, and better rail connectivity is one way of making that happen. Who wants to travel (slowly) to Leeds only to have to change trains in order to get to, for example, Sheffield or Doncaster (or beyond), when they can get in to their car and be on the M606 southbound in no time? There is a huge market to be tapped in Bradford for new rail services, as clearly the West Yorkshire Combined Authority realises. (And a West Leeds/East Bradford parkway at New Pudsey to add to the mix.)
This is not a speculative idea, this is a firm submission by the WYCA into the ‘Ideas Fund’ part of the government’s ‘Restoring your railway’ (reversing Beeching) policy announced in February, and the source material of the original media story says:
(The WYCA has) supported a submission for the Wortley Curve. The submission is sponsored by Rachel Reeves MP. The proposal of Wortley Curve has emerged from the Combined Authority’s Rail Connectivity Vision work.… The work identifies that there are sizeable travel markets between Bradford, Calderdale and Kirklees to places such as Wakefield, Sheffield and the East Midlands, that the railway is not currently serving well. It identifies opportunities for infrastructure enhancement which could improve the integration of NPR, HS2 with the existing rail network. These include the reinstatement of Wortley Curve and an enhanced Clayton junction as part of the HS2 development.
Quite some potential, I would suggest, and not in the slightest bit nonsense.
Some posters have hit the nail on head. Bradford is a major city with dreadful rail links except east-west: it very much needs all the regeneration help it can get, and better rail connectivity is one way of making that happen. Who wants to travel (slowly) to Leeds only to have to change trains in order to get to, for example, Sheffield or Doncaster (or beyond), when they can get in to their car and be on the M606 southbound in no time? There is a huge market to be tapped in Bradford for new rail services, as clearly the West Yorkshire Combined Authority realises. (And a West Leeds/East Bradford parkway at New Pudsey to add to the mix.)
This is not a speculative idea, this is a firm submission by the WYCA into the ‘Ideas Fund’ part of the government’s ‘Restoring your railway’ (reversing Beeching) policy announced in February, and the source material of the original media story says:
(The WYCA has) supported a submission for the Wortley Curve. The submission is sponsored by Rachel Reeves MP. The proposal of Wortley Curve has emerged from the Combined Authority’s Rail Connectivity Vision work.… The work identifies that there are sizeable travel markets between Bradford, Calderdale and Kirklees to places such as Wakefield, Sheffield and the East Midlands, that the railway is not currently serving well. It identifies opportunities for infrastructure enhancement which could improve the integration of NPR, HS2 with the existing rail network. These include the reinstatement of Wortley Curve and an enhanced Clayton junction as part of the HS2 development.
Quite some potential, I would suggest, and not in the slightest bit nonsense.
If it becomes relevant to HS2/NPR then clearly that's a different ball game which would make it far more important.
I don't doubt there is some potential for improved links to Sheffield and beyond but if you want to serve Calderdale and Kirklees then running a service via Halifax and Brighouse and then either via Barnsley as I suggested or via Wakefield would seem to be the better option in my view.
The campaign for better transport quote the Spen Valley as being a potential strategic line to Sheffield and the East Midlands from Bradford which would be an option, but as someone who lives fairly near to their I think a light rail scheme is a better option for that line which I believe is also now being looked at.
Fundamentally you cannot get away from the fact that Leeds is the dominant City in the West Yorkshire conurbation and likely to remain so into the future. My village is closer to Bradford than Leeds, but Leeds has the better Bus service, 40 years ago it was the other way around which really says it all in my book, in fact the only positive thing about Bradford in my eyes is the parking tends to be cheaper than Leeds.
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Anything submitted through that process is by its very nature a “Speculative idea”
Iskra
Established Member
There's negativity, there's realism and there's Panglossian optimism of the highest nature. If you can't convince a board of rail enthusiasts and operators, I doubt you will convince anyone to pay for it.
Even if it got built, I doubt any TOC would want to use it. Then there's the issue of paths into Sheffield. It's totally unfeasible at this point in time and Bradford's rail transport issues can't be solved cheaply.
Iskra
Established Member
I agree that the Spen Valley line would be good for a commuter route, I'm not sure how useful it would be for direct services to exotic locations to please the residents of Bradford, as realistically it would probably terminate at Dewsbury.
If you were reinstating track a Wakefield-Dewsbury-Batley-Birstall-Bradford line would make more sense to me as it serves a higher population, provides more journey opportunities and relieves more traffic from the roads. Bradford-Wakefield services would be nice, but if you're going to do it a) test it using the existing line via Brighouse before doing anything b) do it properly and reopen a direct route. But doing anything in this area will be extremely expensive because of how urban it is and the geography, plus crossing the M62.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
When I read about this the last time it was in the news the only conclusion I could come to as to why its being proposed was in order to allow freight services for Draxx to bypass Leeds (may be in conjunction with the Bowling avoiding line) and also GC to serve Bradford once the TRU begins. Lets not forget for a significant length of time the line between Westown Dewsbury and Huddersfield will be completely cut off whilst it is upgraded, four tracked and electrified!
So unless we all do without a good cuppa of Yorkshire Tea then reinstating this curve may be the only way to do it, obviously the SELRAP proposal could be done but that would take much longer.
So unless we all do without a good cuppa of Yorkshire Tea then reinstating this curve may be the only way to do it, obviously the SELRAP proposal could be done but that would take much longer.
Iskra
Established Member
Freight still wouldn't be able to run that way due to the lack of an avoiding curve at Bradford?
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Bradford does have loops, although I suspect they may be a bit short from freight services from Draxx to run round so I suspect the avoiding line may be brought back into use.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I imagine they'll phase the works so one route or other is open both west and east of Mirfield except for a few short blockades for commissioning signaling etc.
Better value from reviewing signalling at Hellifield and reversing trains there.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
I very much doubt it considering this is merely more than simply four tracking and electrifying it and is quite significant.
Besides which lengthy closures have already been reported within the press.
Transpennine 2.9bn rail upgrrade will cause 'major disruption' 13/09/2018
TransPennine £2.9bn rail upgrade will cause 'major disruption'
A leaked letter reveals the £2.9bn improvement will cause five years of significant disruption.
www.bbc.co.uk
I very much doubt it considering this is merely more than simply four tracking and electrifying it and is quite significant.
Besides which lengthy closures have already been reported within the press.
Transpennine 2.9bn rail upgrrade will cause 'major disruption' 13/09/2018
TransPennine £2.9bn rail upgrade will cause 'major disruption'
A leaked letter reveals the £2.9bn improvement will cause five years of significant disruption.www.bbc.co.uk
Indeed however reinstating the Bradford avoiding line doesn't exactly look easy or cheap, looks somewhat built on at the Halifax end possibly 2 Businesses would probably have to be relocated.
GC will no doubt have a problem for quite a while if the Transpennine upgrade goes ahead but I doubt the Wortley curve is justified for them they can reverse at Leeds I guess they might choose to even terminate some of their services at Wakefield, I cannot see it being the preferred solution for freight either.
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Very well put, better than I could done. Too many posters on here appear to have an anti Bradford bias when all Bradfordians want is a fair and proper railway that connects our city with the rest.
Out of the top ten cities in the UK, none fair worse than the current situations available to Bradford and it’s time this changed.
How many times do I have to repeat myself, this isn’t about improving Bradford to Brighouse or Dewsbury but connecting Bradford directly with South Yorkshire and the East Midlands.
'Wharfe106' talks about a significant market being identified for not only Bradford but also Calderdale and Kirklees which to me would be be better served by services which run via Halifax, Brighouse and Mirfield, rather than a service which simply heads out of Bradford towards Leeds.
Anti Bradford well yes possibly I live in a Bradford postcode area but I see Leeds as the dominant city and main long distance Hub for the West York's conurbation and as long as the likes of Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax, Dewsbury etc have good local links to the Leeds hub then I see longer distance services which avoid the Leeds hub as somewhat secondary. Like it or not and yes I'm sure Bradford council wont like but Bradford is close to Leeds and in many respects in terms of distance it could be regarded as the outer suburbia of Leeds.
Unfortunately, the 10 minute maximum saving (compared with a through service via Leeds, not with existing) becomes less significant the longer the journey.
10 minutes to Wakefield (35min vice 45) is 20%, Derby (85 vice 95) is 10% and so on.
And for Halifax the route via Brighouse is probably better.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Ive got my measuring tape out:
Bradford to Wakefield Kirkgate via Halifax = 26.63 m (42.85km)
Bradford to Wakefield Westgate via Wortley = 16.85 m (27.12km)
Bradford to Wakefield Kirkgate via Halifax = 26.63 m (42.85km)
Bradford to Wakefield Westgate via Wortley = 16.85 m (27.12km)
quantinghome
Established Member
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There are a number of issues to be considered:
1. Attraction of Leeds to operators. But if Leeds is at capacity now, there may be limited scope to run more services so operators may have to look at options like this.
2. Lack of demand. Would need to be investigated in more detail. Bradford is a large city but with historically low rail use - but GC have made a go of it.
3. Capacity constraints at Sheffield, Moorthorpe-Wortley and Wortley-Bradford. Trains may have to be flighted which makes for an unattractive timetable.
1. Attraction of Leeds to operators. But if Leeds is at capacity now, there may be limited scope to run more services so operators may have to look at options like this.
2. Lack of demand. Would need to be investigated in more detail. Bradford is a large city but with historically low rail use - but GC have made a go of it.
3. Capacity constraints at Sheffield, Moorthorpe-Wortley and Wortley-Bradford. Trains may have to be flighted which makes for an unattractive timetable.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
I think even Bradford maybe at capacity which is we why I don't understand this proposal.
Aictos
Established Member
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Point 1. I don't think train services between Bradford and Leeds can be classed as "Slow" as both are only 20 to 25 minutes by rail which isn't slow at all, if you said they were slow as in the rail journey takes nearly 45 minutes then maybe you have a point.
Point 2. The train service is frequent and off peak at the same time every hour which is not a hardship.
Point 3. Why reinstate Wortley Curve when 1. It makes no sense to bypass Leeds and 2. It's already possible to bypass Leeds without spending millions on infrastructure that's not really needed.
Point 4. Despite the fact it's been brought up by a official body, at this stage it is still just speculation on how to best move forward with the idea.
Point 5. As Leeds is the 3rd busiest station outside London, any improvements ought to be done there first before Bradford and that's just common sense.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
and I wonder why Leeds is the 3rd busiest train station and has capacity issues when were insisting on everything going through it!
I also wonder (Im a wonderer btw) whenever the same arguments would be made if we were discussing reinstating the Spen Valley Line ? i.e just go via Leeds.
Im not sure of the exact figures but I do suspect not forcing everyone to change at Leeds, could free up space on existing services going to and from Leeds that could be used by those wishing to travel to Leeds.
Don't forget Leeds is pretty much full, just like Bradford I believe which is why I don't understand this proposal unless other improvements are made.
Perhaps services could terminate in a new platform at Halifax ?
As for Bradford to Wakefield services even if you reopened the alternative line between Anchor Pit junction and Pickle Bridge Junction to bypass Halifax going by Wortley may still be much slightly quicker.
Bradford to Wakefield Kirkgate via Pickle Bridge = 20.28 m (32.64km)
Bradford to Wakefield Westgate via Wortley = 16.85 m (27.12km)
As for Sheffield services even if you also reinstated the Horbury West Curve...
Bradford to Sheffield via Pickle Bridge 41.41 m (66.64 km)
Bradford to Sheffield via Wortley 45.56 m (73.33km)
Going by Wortley may also be slightly quicker although Sheffield services won't be able to head via Barnsley unless you sent them via Woodlesford but that would mean crossing the busy throat at Leeds that the Wortley Curve doesn't require.
I also wonder (Im a wonderer btw) whenever the same arguments would be made if we were discussing reinstating the Spen Valley Line ? i.e just go via Leeds.
Im not sure of the exact figures but I do suspect not forcing everyone to change at Leeds, could free up space on existing services going to and from Leeds that could be used by those wishing to travel to Leeds.
Don't forget Leeds is pretty much full, just like Bradford I believe which is why I don't understand this proposal unless other improvements are made.
Perhaps services could terminate in a new platform at Halifax ?
As for Bradford to Wakefield services even if you reopened the alternative line between Anchor Pit junction and Pickle Bridge Junction to bypass Halifax going by Wortley may still be much slightly quicker.
Bradford to Wakefield Kirkgate via Pickle Bridge = 20.28 m (32.64km)
Bradford to Wakefield Westgate via Wortley = 16.85 m (27.12km)
As for Sheffield services even if you also reinstated the Horbury West Curve...
Bradford to Sheffield via Pickle Bridge 41.41 m (66.64 km)
Bradford to Sheffield via Wortley 45.56 m (73.33km)
Going by Wortley may also be slightly quicker although Sheffield services won't be able to head via Barnsley unless you sent them via Woodlesford but that would mean crossing the busy throat at Leeds that the Wortley Curve doesn't require.
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