Potential TOC swaps

[dorsetdesiro]

This thread could be used for speculating on any possible TOC swaps - past, current or future


I was surprised to learn the New Street-Leciester/Nottingham services are operated by Crosscountry - pretty short distance for an operator like Crosscountry!! It has been a long while since I travelled when this was I think under Central Trains at the time so how come this wasn't transferred to East Midlands Trains years ago?

Would it make more sense if EMR were to operate the New Street-Leicester/Nottingham services and for Crosscountry to take over the Liverpool-Norwich service as it does cross the country from the north-west to East Anglia rather than "regional" which is not on the same level as other ordinary EMR regional services?


Also I think there were past proposals for Wales & West/Wessex Trains to take over the West of England line from SWT - I could be wrong?

 

[dk1]

Cross Country (XC) was centred on Birmingham & it’s core services had to pass through. One of the reasons Norwich-Liverpool wasn’t included. It also made more sense for Leicester stoppers to move over to XC as on their route. The same applied to Nottingham/Birmingham as Cardiff-Nottingham went to XC thus becoming the only operator on the Birmingham-Derby corridor.

 

[JonathanH]

Would it make more sense if EMR were to operate the New Street-Leicester/Nottingham services and for Crosscountry to take over the Liverpool-Norwich service as it does cross the country from the north-west to East Anglia rather than "regional" which is not on the same level as other ordinary EMR regional services?

Not really. The split of Central Trains resulted in Nottingham and Derby based traincrew (and the depot at Nottingham) passing to East Midlands Trains, and Leicester based traincrew passing to CrossCountry.

Having both the Birmingham to Leicester / Stansted and Cardiff / Birmingham to Nottingham services gives the CrossCountry operation a sensible size. Nottingham is the central point on the Liverpool to Norwich route.

What you suggest would entirely change the location of the traincrew and operations.

pretty short distance for an operator like Crosscountry!!

I don't understand why you think the distance is relevant. Is Slough to Windsor pretty short distance for an operator like GWR that runs trains from London to Penzance?

 

[172007]

West Midlands Railway taking over Chilterns Leamington to Stratford O A and Moor Street shuttles. With the common fair pot then there no argument who pockets which fares now.

 

[The Planner]

West Midlands Railway taking over Chilterns Leamington to Stratford O A and Moor Street shuttles. With the common fair pot then there no argument who pockets which fares now.

Talk of the Nuneaton Leamingtons being extended to Stratford as suggested on here at times from what I hear.

 

[Chiltern006]

Few ideas

• Tonbridge to Redhill transferring back to Southeastern and incorporated into Medway Valley Lind services
• Crewe to Chester transfer to Northern
• Shrewsbury to Crewe shuttles to WMR
• North Downs transferred to Southern as far as Guildford and SWR beyond (this could go either way!)
• Kings Lynn transfer to GA, and Thameslink extending 1TPH to Ely to fill the gap, negating the need for Great Northern north of Stevenage
• GN metro services transferred to Overground, getting rid of the GN brand altogether

These are bound to cause division aha

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool to Nottingham to TPE. Madness that this didn't happen as it was planned.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TPE's West Coast Mainline services to Avanti*- because they don't actually cross the Pennines.
The Huddersfield stoppers back to Northern, though this is likely to happen once the route upgrade is finished.

*= or back to CrossCountry as they were previously. Yes, I know Castlefield is a problem with this approach.

 

[dk1]

Liverpool to Nottingham to TPE. Madness that this didn't happen as it was planned.

I must agree as seemed the perfect suit. Anything right now involving TPE however doesn’t sound so good.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I don't understand why you think the distance is relevant. Is Slough to Windsor pretty short distance for an operator like GWR that runs trains from London to Penzance?

Thanks for that, I suppose this would make sense operationally, however personally for me this looks peculiar from the outside, as Crosscountry traverses over many regions compared to GWR as GWR remains in its own region stretching from Paddington to Penzance which Slough & Windsor are entirely in that region.

I'm used to Crosscountry operating from opposite ends of Britain such as Plymouth, Aberdeen, Cardiff etc then to see it going from Birmingham to Nottingham which is "Midlands regional" and was operated by Central Trains, so couldn't help but wonder why not EMR or even WMR are operating it.

Few ideas

• Kings Lynn transfer to GA, and Thameslink extending 1TPH to Ely to fill the gap, negating the need for Great Northern north of Stevenage
• GN metro services transferred to Overground, getting rid of the GN brand altogether

These are bound to cause division aha

Maybe have the GN Moorgate services as Thameslink then Thameslink would have all Desiro City fleet of 700s and 717s?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Barrow/Windermere - Manchester services back to TPE, with 802s.

 

[JonathanH]

North Downs transferred to Southern as far as Guildford and SWR beyond (this could go either way!)

Services split at Guildford then? If it was electrified then 2tph Reading to Guildford by SWR and 1tph Victoria to Guildford as extension of Reigate stoppers by Southern and no through trains might be an idea. However, there are through passengers who might be upset.

 

[Nova1]

I've heard people before saying that Leamington Spa - Coventry should be ran by Chiltern

I'd say Stratford-Upon-Avon -> Hatton, Warwick, Leamington Spa services should be ran by WMR and not Chiltern

 

[JonathanH]

Kings Lynn transfer to GA, and Thameslink extending 1TPH to Ely to fill the gap, negating the need for Great Northern north of Stevenage

The primary route to Cambridge is from Kings Cross by some margin now. Slowing down Kings Lynn services by sending them to Liverpool Street, or severing them at Cambridge wouldn't go down very well.

Why does GN need to be removed north of Stevenage?

 

[317 forever]

This thread could be used for speculating on any possible TOC swaps - past, current or future


I was surprised to learn the New Street-Leciester/Nottingham services are operated by Crosscountry - pretty short distance for an operator like Crosscountry!! It has been a long while since I travelled when this was I think under Central Trains at the time so how come this wasn't transferred to East Midlands Trains years ago?

Would it make more sense if EMR were to operate the New Street-Leicester/Nottingham services and for Crosscountry to take over the Liverpool-Norwich service as it does cross the country from the north-west to East Anglia rather than "regional" which is not on the same level as other ordinary EMR regional services?


Also I think there were past proposals for Wales & West/Wessex Trains to take over the West of England line from SWT - I could be wrong?

If anything, Cross Country is Birmingham express but not London, while TransPennine is Manchester express but not Birmingham or London.

In answer to your question, I therefore think Liverpool - Nottingham (and Norwich while there is still a through service) should be TransPennine. However, Cross Country is the right operator for Birmingham - Stansted Airport. Similarly, I feel Birmingham - Liverpool should also be Cross Country.

Then Norwich - Nottingham - Derby should join Greater Anglia. This would give Norwich a unified railway. Nottingham & Derby have enough East Midlands Railway but diluted with Cross Country for Birmingham & beyond.

As regards Wales, I feel it would be consistent if all routes with regional DMUs were part of Transport for Wales, except Cross Country to Birmingham & Nottingham. I therefore feel that Cardiff - Portsmouth should join Transport for Wales. However, I consider GWR and Avanti the correct operators linking their areas of Wales with London.

In another example, I agree with you @Chiltern006 that Crewe - Chester should be Northern. I similarly feel Liverpool - Chester via Liverpool South Parkway should be Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In another example, I agree with you @Chiltern006 that Crewe - Chester should be Northern. I similarly feel Liverpool - Chester via Liverpool South Parkway should be Northern.

That one makes more sense when you realise this is planned to become Liverpool-Llandudno.

 

[Energy]

Talk of the Nuneaton Leamingtons being extended to Stratford as suggested on here at times from what I hear.

Would be a useful service, currently Nuneaton to Leamington is split into Nuneaton to Coventry and Coventry to Leamington on Sundays, presumably due to issues timetabling crossing the WCML at Coventry.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If anything, Cross Country is Birmingham express but not London, while TransPennine is Manchester express but not Birmingham or London.

Now I understand some might view Crosscountry as "Birmingham express" as it is focused there instead of London. I admit I didn't see it this way instead seeing it in the UK-wide approach instead so hence the name "Crosscountry" as it spans nationwide, instead of sprinting to some London terminal.

 

[dk1]

Now I understand some might view Crosscountry as "Birmingham express" as it is focused there instead of London. I admit I didn't see it this way instead seeing it in the UK-wide approach instead so hence the name "Crosscountry" as it spans nationwide, instead of sprinting to London terminals

Mate I can’t believe you’ve become so distant from what’s been going on with franchises since all this happened in 2007. Where have you been all this time?

 

[Chiltern006]

Another one being the West London Line services by Southern. should be transferred to Overground IMO

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Mate I can’t believe you’ve become so distant from what’s been going on with franchises since all this happened in 2007. Where have you been all this time?

Ha ha, don't know, I probably have a different mindset to others! Personally if I had Crosscountry focused more on Birmingham, also highlighting faster Birmingham connections - then I probably would brand it as "Midlands Connect" or "Central Connect", something like that. That's for another time lol

I guess I did view Crosscountry as the rail equivalent to National Express coaches, I don't use it much to understand it properly.

 

[6Gman]

Few ideas

• Tonbridge to Redhill transferring back to Southeastern and incorporated into Medway Valley Lind services
• Crewe to Chester transfer to Northern
• Shrewsbury to Crewe shuttles to WMR
• North Downs transferred to Southern as far as Guildford and SWR beyond (this could go either way!)
• Kings Lynn transfer to GA, and Thameslink extending 1TPH to Ely to fill the gap, negating the need for Great Northern north of Stevenage
• GN metro services transferred to Overground, getting rid of the GN brand altogether

These are bound to cause division aha

This one keeps being mentioned.

Since TfW has a depot at Chester and Northern ... er, doesn't ... who would work it?

 

[Spaceship323]

Would be a useful service, currently Nuneaton to Leamington is split into Nuneaton to Coventry and Coventry to Leamington on Sundays, presumably due to issues timetabling crossing the WCML at Coventry.

But there's less passenger and no freight trains on sunday so crossing at COV is easier surely

 

[JonathanH]

This one keeps being mentioned.

Since TfW has a depot at Chester and Northern ... er, doesn't ... who would work it?

It might give enough critical mass for Northern to establish a small traincrew depot at Chester which would make operation of their existing services easier.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

With industrial relations as they are DfT might be more wary about transferring routes, staff or classes of stock between TOCs, in case there's a risk it precipitates disputes.

 

[SuperNova]

Barrow/Windermere - Manchester services back to TPE, with 802s.

What a waste of 802s

 

[Agent_Squash]

What a waste of 802s

How so?

It’s a route that’s crying for bi-modes, provides another tph up to Lancaster, and was previously operated by TPE.

802s wouldn’t be perfect for it, but it would stop Northern having to introduce a new fleet.

 

[507020]

How so?

It’s a route that’s crying for bi-modes, provides another tph up to Lancaster, and was previously operated by TPE.

802s wouldn’t be perfect for it, but it would stop Northern having to introduce a new fleet.

It’s a route crying for bi-modes, but not InterCity bi-modes. Instead of 195s and 331s, Northern should have ordered a single compatible fleet of regional bi-modes, all of 3 and 4 cars. Now, I would redeploy 175s to Barrow/Windermere as the most suitable things already in existence to run there, given that it’s the route they were designed for, despite emissions likely being worse. It may have a positive effect though if displaced 195s can replace Sprinters.

 

[A S Leib]

West Ealing - Greenford to London Overground and Wrexham - Bidston to Merseyrail if both were electrified.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

f anything, Cross Country is Birmingham express but not London, while TransPennine is Manchester express but not Birmingham or London

To me, this rather raises the question of whether the aim should be ‘one city, one operator’.

Of course this can’t be perfectly obtained (if nothing else how would trains between cities work if the cities at each end of a service were with different operators?) but now that operators aren’t taking the fare box risk, do the network benefits of co-operation between services on a route outweigh the gains from competition between operators?