Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[LNW-GW Joint]

I watched most of this - still need to watch the tail-end.
Three impressive captains of the rail industry, in one of the more lucid and informative TSC sessions, without much of the local lobbying they are prone to.
The HS2 debate was fascinating, with all parties expecting a reset of the rolling stock contract which now doesn't fit the HS2 network in prospect.
There were repeated questions on the lack of tilt capability in the HS2 spec, now the trains are going to spend most of their time on the classic WCML network and running slower than today's Pendolinos.
You wonder what on earth is going on at HS2 Ltd now their Phase 2 wings have been clipped.
Hitachi weren't there, and might take issue with the idea that Derby is designing/building the HS2 trains - it's a joint project (50-50), based on a non-Derby train.

The wider plea was for DfT to produce a strategic rolling stock plan for the industry.
That's not going to happen unless the job is devolved to GBR, and even then it could only be a guide for independent TOCs.
I was surprised how upbeat they all were about the longer term (2027 onwards), when a large number of older trains will need replacing.
But the deadline for end-of-Aventra is only 6 weeks away.
The DfT would also probably take issue with the idea that Chiltern's fleet is not fit for purpose.

 

[Invincible]

Alstom: We have six weeks of work left, says rail firm boss

Alstom boss Nick Crossfield tells MPs work at its Derby factory is due to dry up in the new year.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[HSTEd]

The wider plea was for DfT to produce a strategic rolling stock plan for the industry.
That's not going to happen unless the job is devolved to GBR, and even then it could only be a guide for independent TOCs.

Everyone wants such a plan until they realise what it would entail.

The dream of multiple UK rolling stock manufacturing plants would die rather rapidly if anyone attempted to seriously look at the economics.

Much better to keep throwing away public money to sustain four plants than face the reality of closing at least three of them.

 

[Energy]

Derby will probably survive but it will be an assembly plant employing hundreds, rather than a full manufacturing plant employing thousands.

Derby already is an assembly plant but with design and some component manufacture on site. The traction electronics and motors are made overseas and the bodyshell is bolted together though the parts are manufactured nearby.

If Alstom/Bombardier really wanted to keep Derby they'd have transitioned it to more component manufacturing years ago and completed bodyshell manufacturing and assembly elsewhere, either overseas or at a plant with a connection to HS1 for export orders.

The warnings of job losses at Derby have been going on for years, every so often when the orders start running short there's a piece in the news about how they might have to cut jobs, and yet Alstom/Bombardier never seemed to do anything to secure the plants future

Everyone wants such a plan until they realise what it would entail.

It wouldn't be telling manufacturers what to make and when either, everything has to be tendered and Derby has to be competitive. Franchising was a godsend to Bombardier, bidders needed to promise a large number of EMUs with cheap finance sorted elsewhere, if the delivery times weren't met it wouldn't matter as the government rarely penalised for failing to meet franchise promises.

 

[Snow1964]

Not just the Derby plant in trouble due to lack of orders

Hitachi’s UK operation has taken a multimillion pound writedown on the value of its plant in County Durham, as concerns mount over the future of the UK’s train manufacturing sector.

In its latest company accounts, Hitachi revealed a £64.8m impairment to the value of its plant in Newton Aycliffe, citing issues including a production gap and inflation.

Britain’s train manufacturers are reeling from a slowdown in rolling stock orders. Low passenger demand and increasing home working since the pandemic have decimated rail operator’s finances across the country, restricting orderbooks.

Hitachi UK rail plant takes multimillion hit as train manufacturers struggle

Hitachi's factory in the North East of England has taken a multimillion pound writedown amid growing concerns over the health of UK train manufacturing.

www.cityam.com

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not just the Derby plant in trouble due to lack of orders

Hitachi UK rail plant takes multimillion hit as train manufacturers struggle

Hitachi's factory in the North East of England has taken a multimillion pound writedown amid growing concerns over the health of UK train manufacturing.

www.cityam.com

See. A mad rush to build all those IETs etc ropeing in a factory in Italy and now, surprise surprise, we don't need so many new year on year. We lurch from one extreme to another.

 

[greyman42]

See. A mad rush to build all those IETs etc ropeing in a factory in Italy and now, surprise surprise, we don't need so many new year on year. We lurch from one extreme to another.

It always seems to have been the case with the UK market since the mid 1980s.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a Question to be answered in Parliament Thursday 14th Dec about Alstom Derby (Questions for Secretary of State for Transport)

https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/Document/83587/Pdf?subType=Standard

Tomorrow 14th is also when ORR is due to publish station usage data, so Press will be looking at Railway stuff.

Yesterday the House of Lords got involved with debate about HS2 trains and potential refurbishment contracts

Debate: Refurbishing Trains: Contracts - 12th Dec 2023 - Baroness McIntosh of Pickering extracts

Tue 12th Dec 2023 - Lords - Refurbishing Trains: Contracts debate Baroness McIntosh of Pickering contributions to the 12th December 2023 Refurbishing Trains: Contracts debate

www.parallelparliament.co.uk

not going to quote as quite long

Would guess tomorrow is realistically last chance for any serious announcement this side of Christmas and New Year break

 

[Dan G]

If Alstom put a generator unit under an Aventra there are tenders they could bid for. A DEMU has an obvious advantage over a DMU of the potential to be converted to full electric or battery-electric in a country commited to decarbonisation.

Why Alstom hasn't done this is known only by them.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If Alstom put a generator unit under an Aventra there are tenders they could bid for. A DEMU has an obvious advantage over a DMU of the potential to be converted to full electric or battery-electric in a country commited to decarbonisation.

Why Alstom hasn't done this is known only by them.

Perhaps Alstom thought that buying Bombardier would give them access to some excellent proven DMU products !.

 

[RUK]

I suppose East-West Rail may need some units to replace the Class 196s once they’re short (three-year?) lease is up, but that order might be a while away yet, and for not that many units.

 

[MML]

A follow on order to increase the length of Class 345 Aventra units from 9-car to 11-car would provide some immediate support for Derby. The additional 140 coaches would help to reduce overcrowding on the Elizabeth line.

Similarly increasing the length of Azumas from 9-car to 10-car would result in the production of 34 additional carriages for Hitachi. This could partially compensate for the reduction in the HS2 fleet order.

 

[dgl]

The question is that did Alstom buy Bombardier for it's train building division or dis it buy it for it's signalling division.
As for Alstom and Hitachi complaining then maybe build a better product and you'll get more orders, you only got the latest orders because they didn't know how crap they were going to be!

 

[JonathanH]

A follow on order to increase the length of Class 345 Aventra units from 9-car to 11-car would provide some immediate support for Derby. The additional 140 coaches would help to reduce overcrowding on the Elizabeth line.

It may well provide support to Derby, but I'm fairly sure the Elizabeth Line is in no position to operate 11-car trains at the current time, or in the near future.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A follow on order to increase the length of Class 345 Aventra units from 9-car to 11-car would provide some immediate support for Derby. The additional 140 coaches would help to reduce overcrowding on the Elizabeth line.
Similarly increasing the length of Azumas from 9-car to 10-car would result in the production of 34 additional carriages for Hitachi. This could partially compensate for the reduction in the HS2 fleet order.

Are the 345 and IEP fleets delivering their contracted availability?
Until they do there is no business case for more.

The HS2 fleet has not been reduced (yet), though probably delayed, and perhaps reconfigured.
A few more 345s to serve Old Oak Common is a future need for when HS2 opens, but no need to build them yet.

If they had regional bi-mode/battery trains on the stocks it would be attractive to several TOCs, but there are other suppliers too for that sort of design.

 

[Bald Rick]

A follow on order to increase the length of Class 345 Aventra units from 9-car to 11-car would provide some immediate support for Derby. The additional 140 coaches would help to reduce overcrowding on the Elizabeth line.

Nowhere to park them!

 

[JonathanH]

Nowhere to park them!

9-car sidings rather put pay to any idea of 11-car operation, even if the (central) stations were designed to one day be extended. If only the planners had realised they would need to run longer trains to keep a rolling stock manufacturing site open.

 

[MCR247]

9-car sidings rather put pay to any idea of 11-car operation, even if the (central) stations were designed to one day be extended. If only the planners had realised they would need to run longer trains to keep a rolling stock manufacturing site open.

To be fair, a 345 order would also come in useful for HS2 terminating at OOC. Not that the planners would’ve foreseen that of course.

Perhaps building more sidings for extra units would be more cost effective than lengthening the existing fleet

 

[Trainbike46]

Ordering sufficient extra 345s for the extension to OOC could be a good idea, even if only because getting more if Derby closes may de challenging!

Other than that, it very much is up to Alstom to put in a good quality offer for the various tenders that are currently running; if they do they may well win it, and if they don't Alstom only has itself to blame for closing.

 

[Invincible]

I see TFL are proposing to replace the London Bombardier Trams (built in Austria) as they approach 25 years old, if Alstrom get the contract perhaps some assembly could be in the UK?
Any idea what happend to

Alstom and Eversholt Rail sign an agreement for the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet

New co-operation agreement aims to provide an initial fleet of 10 new hydrogen trains for UK

www.alstom.com

 

[Thirteen]

I suspect the CR4000 replacement will be built overseas only because it will be a small order.

 

[Energy]

I suspect the CR4000 replacement will be built overseas only because it will be a small order.

Bombardier has never really shown any intent of building trams in the UK. The Nottingham trams built in Derby were under Adtranz.

 

[Invincible]

Serious discussions continue over future of Derby's Alstom factory

The city-based firm says it remains locked in conversations with the Government

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Still ongoing discussions, no new definite rolling stock tenders or orders as current DMUs get older.
But the DfT says
“While this is a commercial matter for the company, we have already set up a dedicated cross-government taskforce to properly support workers at Alstom during what will be a concerning time.”
Probably more redundancies (along with Tata steel) and industry losing out to foreign competition, sounds like the Conservatives have given up in a possible election year.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In Modern Railways (Feb, p9) there is a piece reporting a recent DfT commercial pipeline document, saying that no further rolling orders will be placed until the end of 2024, which will be against the Northern tender for mostly bi-mode stock.
That's not to say some juggling of orders might not happen, or some refurbishment work, but there is no obvious production solution on the horizon.
Rumoured cascades of existing stock (eg 379s to GN, Mk5s to Chiltern) don't help the manufacturers.

 

[Trainbike46]

In Modern Railways (Feb, p9) there is a piece reporting a recent DfT commercial pipeline document, saying that no further rolling orders will be placed until the end of 2024, which will be against the Northern tender for mostly bi-mode stock.
That's not to say some juggling of orders might not happen, or some refurbishment work, but there is no obvious production solution on the horizon.
Rumoured cascades (379s to GN, Mk5s to Chiltern) don't help the manufacturers.

Is this the government leaving any investment decisions until after the next election? If not, what is the rationale for delaying the various new rolling stock procurement plans (Chiltern, Northern, Southeastern, GWR churchward, Transpennine)?

Also, does the DfT consider the potential Scotrail order (and has anyone heard anything about that recently?), or any order for extra 345s for the Elizabeth Line?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Placing an order requires a business case approved by the DfT, and with specification, financing, production and deployment contracts/plans ready to go.
There's no sign of any of that detail being in place on any of the putative orders.
The 345s are not needed for years and there is no clear deployment plan.

 

[Snow1964]

Serious discussions continue over future of Derby's Alstom factory

The city-based firm says it remains locked in conversations with the Government

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Still ongoing discussions, no new definite rolling stock tenders or orders as current DMUs get older.

What is the chance of an International order ?

Alstom has just won order for 81 carriages from Israel (Siemens also seem to have won 81). Even if they were assembled in UK, probably only 2-3 months work.

JERUSALEM, Jan 23 (Reuters) -Israel has signed a 1.7 billion euro ($1.85 billion) deal with France's Alstom ALSO.PA to purchase electric train carriages, the transport ministry said on Tuesday.

The ministry said that under the deal Israel would receive 81 carriages made by Alstom and the same amount of carriages made by Siemens SIEGn.DE.

 

[Invincible]

The 345s are not needed for years and there is no clear deployment plan.

The Aventra units could be fitted for diesel and battery packs for the Northern or GWR (Churchward) tenders if issued?

 

[Russel]

If Derby closes, where would TfL stand with future orders for the 345 fleet?

Would Alstom be able to produce them at another site or would TfL have to look to order from elsewhere for something that can be made to work on Crossrail?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Derby closes, where would TfL stand with future orders for the 345 fleet?
Would Alstom be able to produce them at another site or would TfL have to look to order from elsewhere for something that can be made to work on Crossrail?

Not the same thing, but (old) Alstom produced 106 Pendolino vehicles in France, a decade after the closure of Washwood Heath.
Hitachi has also produced class 80x vehicles and complete trains in Japan and Italy as well as at Newton Aycliffe.
LNER has ordered CAF bi-modes instead of placing a repeat order for 80x.