Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Chester1]

Surely got to add to that other 15x units at other TOCs (EMR, GWR and SWR), not just the ones at Northern? Makes little sense replacing the Northern ones and none of the others - beneficial to replace them all in one go.

Northern is government owned and in absence of Great British Railways it is being used to run the tender but a large number of units would go to replace sprinters used by other ToCs. 450 units is bigger than Northern's entire fleet! The delivery time is quite long too. I think the intention is to provide a moderate amount of work each year for 5-7 years. This enables CAF and Siemens to tender with their UK factories. Social benefit clauses should make UK production a near necessity. CAF Newport is small and Siemens new factory in Google will need most of its production capacity for the underground contract.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I didn't know, until reading this thread that the HS2 fleet will be produced in Derby...
That prospect doesn't fill me confidence.

The bodyshells will be produced at Newton Aycliffe, then moved to Derby for fitting out and integration into complete trains.
Bogies will come from Crewe.
Electrics will probably be from Hitachi.

 

[Russel]

The bodyshells will be produced at Newton Aycliffe, then moved to Derby for fitting out and integration into complete trains.
Bogies will come from Crewe.
Electrics will probably be from Hitachi.

So the bodyshells will crack and the interiors will be of a quality even Poundland would be ashamed of...

 

[Snow1964]

BBC saying in talks with Government

The boss of the UK's largest train factory, where thousands of jobs may be at risk, said the firm was "discussing options" with the government.
There are concerns Alstom's Derby plant, which employs 2,000 staff, could lay off workers due to a gap in orders.
Managing director Nick Crossfield said he hoped conversations "will conclude with the clarity that we need".
Derby City Council said it was "shocked" at reports of potential job losses, and offered support.
Concerns were raised after newspaper reports said Alstom had been relying on existing orders from HS2 but that it was looking to reduce its workforce as these had been pushed back
Its Litchurch Lane site has been turning over work for South Western Railway and West Midlands Trains, which comes to an end in early 2024.

'Critical time'​

Speaking to Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Crossfield said with work on the HS2 trains not set to begin until late 2026, it was a "critical time" for the plant.
"It's one of Alstom group's largest single manufacturing facilities and it needs work and activity to remain viable," he said.
"The immediate issue is a short-term gap in production. We've been engaged with the government for months discussing options to fill that gap."
He said the conversations were "ongoing" but "constructive".
"They fundamentally understand the issue at hand," he said. "We are hopeful at this stage that those conversations will conclude with the clarity that we need."

Derby: Alstom train factory in government talks to fill order gap

Thousands of jobs may be at risk at Alstom's Derby plant due to a "short-term gap in production".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Alstom are looking for a way to move production to France. Informed sources 7th law I believe.

I apologize for being cynical.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So the bodyshells will crack and the interiors will be of a quality even Poundland would be ashamed of...

To make your day complete, the design is said to be based on the Frecciarossa 1000 currently being built by Hitachi in Italy (at the former AnsaldoBreda plant).
To be fair, I was on one last year and it seemed to work fine.

 

[Russel]

To make your day complete, the design is said to be based on the Frecciarossa 1000 currently being built by Hitachi in Italy (at the former AnsaldoBreda plant).
To be fair, I was on one last year and it seemed to work fine.

I still have fond memories of fault finding on the AnsoldoBreda trams on the Midland Metro and their spaghetti style wiring that was different on every tram!

HS2 Is going to be a great success!

 

[43096]

Good point. A major advantage of going for the AT300 - it’s a tried and tested model

Tried, tested and found utterly wanting with a series of design flaws, backed by a manufacturer who would start an argument in an empty room. Why, oh why, would you keep ordering them?

 

[43096]

Alstom are looking for a way to move production to France. Informed sources 7th law I believe.

I apologize for being cynical.

Good call.

 

[Snow1964]

To make your day complete, the design is said to be based on the Frecciarossa 1000 currently being built by Hitachi in Italy (at the former AnsaldoBreda plant).
To be fair, I was on one last year and it seemed to work fine.

The Frecciarossa 1000 is a joint effort between Hitachi Rail Italia and Alstom, having started as AnsaldoBreda and Bombardier, before both got taken over.

 

[RailWonderer]

If the DfT and the Treasury budgets are tight but wish to save jobs we might see a small part of that Northern tender fulfilled very soon. Then further down the line a large follow on order could be made to replace all Sprinters. Replacing a few of them now allowing for cascades and doubling up and scrapping some of the worse for wear ones would be the best play.

 

[60159]

BBC saying in talks with Government

Derby: Alstom train factory in government talks to fill order gap

Thousands of jobs may be at risk at Alstom's Derby plant due to a "short-term gap in production".

www.bbc.co.uk

I’ve seen late 23 and early 24 quoted for completing orders.
I don’t know what is left but I would have thought around 6 720s, 20ish 701s and 30 ish 730/2s ie circa 60 units which suggests they’ll churn them out between 10 and 20 a month. Seems a lot unless my figures are wrong.

 

[QSK19]

Tried, tested and found utterly wanting with a series of design flaws, backed by a manufacturer who would start an argument in an empty room. Why, oh why, would you keep ordering them?

Which is why I said in a previous post that an order from another manufacturer would have shaken things up.

I didn’t actually condone keeping ordering from what seems to be the default IC manufacturer - I was merely stating the logic behind it regardless of whether I agree or disagree with it.

 

[td97]

Irish Rail have firm orders for a large fleet replacement with Alstom. Is this to be manufactured in France?

Alstom to provide new state-of-the-art train-charging infrastructure for Irish Rail (IE) in Drogheda, Ireland

Alstom has been awarded a contract to provide a charging facility for new Battery Electric Multiple Unit (BEMU) trains

www.alstom.com

Alstom has won a ten-year framework agreement with Irish Rail for up to 750 new X’trapolis commuter rail cars for Ireland’s DART network, with firm orders for 37 five-car X’trapolis trains including a 15-year support services contract. 31 of the ordered trains are battery-electric multiple units (BEMUs) while six are electric multiple units.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are part of the X'Trapolis metro range from the old Alstom stable and manufactured in France.
They were proposed for the Thameslink contract won by Siemens - Desiro City.
I believe the Network Rail performance model didn't favour the articulated design.
It doesn't look a good fit for Northern's requirements.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Don't Northern require level boarding? Because I believe only Stadler offer that. Everyone else seems to be stuck with the traditional British layout, where the floor is always just a little too high.

 

[WatcherZero]

Two observations:

1. This boom and bust is only going to be solved if the government commits to a long term steady contract of X trains per year for say 15 years from each factory, it could add top up orders to deal with capacity shortfalls and vary the type of rolling stock it desires but maintaining the same minimum floor rate of production. This is how countries much smaller than the UK have managed to maintain a tank building industry by giving industry a contract for 10 new or refurbished tanks per year you keep the supply chain active and innovating rather than a 150 tanks over 3 years then nothing for 15/20 years approach meaning you lose the production facilities the moment the contract is complete.
2. Derby Council still maintaining the line that its the only rolling stock factory in the UK.

 

[Snow1964]

Irish Rail have firm orders for a large fleet replacement with Alstom. Is this to be manufactured in France?

Alstom to provide new state-of-the-art train-charging infrastructure for Irish Rail (IE) in Drogheda, Ireland

Alstom has been awarded a contract to provide a charging facility for new Battery Electric Multiple Unit (BEMU) trains

www.alstom.com

Yes, 2 batches now ordered under a framework agreement (initially 19, then extra 18 in Dec 2022), It is now 6 electric and 31 battery EMUs. I think they are 82m long, five car articulated sets with space for 550 passengers featuring low level floor and automatic retractable steps.

Just sort of train that could be used on local services in North West, Leeds area, Chiltern inner suburban, Bristol metro services, Thames Valley branches etc. But unlikely to be built at Derby

 

[HSTEd]

Once again, we face the reality that the UK has nowhere near enough demand for railway rolling stock to support multiple manufacturers.

We have enough demand to support a single production line and that is pretty much it. And the only sane way to operate in they environment is a manufacturer owned by the railway industry (and thus, essentially the state)

 

[Mordac]

Alstom are looking for a way to move production to France. Informed sources 7th law I believe.

I apologize for being cynical.

Quelle surprise. I knew this was gonna happen https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-rolling-stock-contract-award.223547/post-5355799 Same story as Washwood Heath.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Once again, we face the reality that the UK has nowhere near enough demand for railway rolling stock to support multiple manufacturers.
We have enough demand to support a single production line and that is pretty much it. And the only sane way to operate in they environment is a manufacturer owned by the railway industry (and thus, essentially the state)

We don't build whole aircraft any more, we contribute to multi-national development programmes and share some of the sub-system manufacturing.
Why should rail be any different?
We cannot possibly keep up with all the technological development for all rail applications.

 

[The exile]

Surely got to add to that other 15x units at other TOCs (EMR, GWR and SWR), not just the ones at Northern? Makes little sense replacing the Northern ones and none of the others - beneficial to replace them all in one go.

What would be truly beneficial (and go some way to eliminating the feast/ famine effect is not to replace them “at one go” if that means quickly- but to drip feed the replacements at the level required to keep a plant ticking over and not much more.

 

[Thirteen]

TfL need new Trams so Alstom could perhaps try and get that contract and build them at Derby.

 

[Snow1964]

To some extent Derby is just an assembly location. The days when they would fabricate the bodies, bogie bolsters, cast the wheels, physically build and install seating, wind the electric motor coils etc are long gone.

It has long ago lost bulk of its skilled workforce, who had the experience to do things accurately so there was negligible snagging, and it would pass all tests without rework don't seem to have been there for years.

 

[Energy]

Had this just after the 2008 financial crash, Government ended up ordering a few electrostars (379s).

 

[HSTEd]

We don't build whole aircraft any more, we contribute to multi-national development programmes and share some of the sub-system manufacturing.
Why should rail be any different?
We cannot possibly keep up with all the technological development for all rail applications.

I'm not sure rail can really be directly compared to aerospace.

The latter requires an awful lot more R&D spend than the former, and the international collaborations the UK has been involved in have hardly been stunning successes (Eurofighter, Concorde et al).

The reality is that international collaborations are normally implemented on political grounds rather than economic or technical ones.
A mediocre train is good enough, especially as "mediocre" will still advance with time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I really meant the comparison with Airbus, which has turned into a stunning success story despite its mongrel origins.
The UK shareholding was sold off to the other shareholders as BAe thought there was better money to be made in defence.
Luckily Airbus still uses UK capability to build its products.
To link it to Derby, RR has not managed to benefit from the explosion of A320/B737 orders, and it's tough for them in the wide-body space.
I just think the era of national train-building plants is over, even in France and Germany.

 

[QSK19]

What would be truly beneficial (and go some way to eliminating the feast/ famine effect is not to replace them “at one go” if that means quickly- but to drip feed the replacements at the level required to keep a plant ticking over and not much more.

When I wrote “in one go”, I didn’t mean in terms of timing - I meant it in terms of replacing the whole 15x contingent under the same contract as opposed to replacing some of them and leaving the others for another order. You’re absolutely right in saying it needs to be at a drip feed speed - replace the entire fleet “in one go”, but over a decent period of time.

I worked at Alstom (in the Bombardier days) and I know all too well the uncertainty associated with the feast/famine pattern. It was always a worry whether my department would be for the chop each time we hit a period of famine.

 

[Chester1]

I really meant the comparison with Airbus, which has turned into a stunning success story despite its mongrel origins.
The UK shareholding was sold off to the other shareholders as BAe thought there was better money to be made in defence.
Luckily Airbus still uses UK capability to build its products.
To link it to Derby, RR has not managed to benefit from the explosion of A320/B737 orders, and it's tough for them in the wide-body space.
I just think the era of national train-building plants is over, even in France and Germany.

I agree, especially with Chinese manufacturers entering the market. There will always be people who want a simple old fashioned approach i.e. one UK state owned train builder with a monopoly. The US approach of specifying in legislation that 60% of value of government ordered rolling stock must be domestic seems like a good approach.

When I wrote “in one go”, I didn’t mean in terms of timing - I meant it in terms of replacing the whole 15x contingent under the same contract as opposed to replacing some of them and leaving the others for another order. You’re absolutely right in saying it needs to be at a drip feed speed - replace the entire fleet “in one go”, but over a decent period of time.

I worked at Alstom (in the Bombardier days) and I know all too well the uncertainty associated with the feast/famine pattern. It was always a worry whether my department would be for the chop each time we hit a period of famine.

I think the Northern tender aims to replace the sprinters over an 8 year period. I think it will be a struggle to keep a large number running much longer than that!

 

[43096]

Once again, we face the reality that the UK has nowhere near enough demand for railway rolling stock to support multiple manufacturers.

We have enough demand to support a single production line and that is pretty much it. And the only sane way to operate in they environment is a manufacturer owned by the railway industry (and thus, essentially the state)

Ah, a state monopoly. That will only result in more dross being built.

I’ve no idea why there is such a hang-up about there being UK assembly of trains: most of the high value stuff (traction equipment) comes from abroad anyway; I assume it’s the same superiority complex that gave us Brexit.

If we were to back one domestic manufacturer then it should have been years ago and not the one that did survive (Derby). It would have been better to support Washwood Heath (MetCamm) as at least the traction equipment was UK sourced (Preston), but it suffered from the curse of Alstom.