Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[800001]

Attached are 2 pictures taken from Amanda Solloways twitters, of a letter from Mark Harper,which seems to confirm that secured approval, in principal has been obtained for a total of 10 x 345 to be built for crossrail, 5 agreed back in March and 5 just been agreed.

However Mr Harper does seem to be laying an awful lot of responsibility on Alstom to deliver these 345 with lots of commitments about the future of the Derby plant.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's Treasury approval in principle, meaning DfT has authority to place an order for TfL (via a Rosco).
There will be Treasury conditions attached (eg perhaps reducing future forcast train orders by the same amount).
No government handout comes without strings, and it looks as though Alstom will have to commit to new investment at Derby as well as a special price for the 345s.
The letter mentions "right sizing" Derby, which is surely code for a reduced capacity compared to the recent full-blown Aventra production.
Placing Adessia design work at Derby could be challenging if it diverts work from other Alstom plants.
Harper is dangling £3.6 billion of train orders over the next couple of years - with no guarantee Derby will win them.
Also as has been pointed out, TfL itself will have increased costs of deploying the extra trains, which will also have to be found from somewhere.

 

[hwl]

That's Treasury approval in principle, meaning DfT has authority to place an order for TfL (via a Rosco).
There will be Treasury conditions attached (eg perhaps reducing future forcast train orders by the same amount).
No government handout comes without strings, and it looks as though Alstom will have to commit to new investment at Derby as well as a special price for the 345s.
The letter mentions "right sizing" Derby, which is surely code for a reduced capacity compared to the recent full-blown Aventra production.
Placing Adessia design work at Derby could be challenging if it diverts work from other Alstom plants.

As part of A-B merger Alstom had to agree to divest certain plants, related IP (including product name rights) and assuming some key staff too.
This included some of a continental sister platform to Aventra but not Aventra hence the need for the new product family name and regenerating a product line from ex Bombardier technology heritage (i.e. from Aventra) as lots of countries and companies aren't particularly enamoured with Alstom designs / thinking.
Lots of ex-Alstom design and technology teams have gone in the streaming line over the last years with many ex Bombardier retained (with some deduplication)

Harper is dangling £3.6 billion of train orders over the next couple of years - with no guarantee Derby will win them.
Also as has been pointed out, TfL itself will have increased costs of deploying the extra trains, which will also have to be found from somewhere.

Elizabeth line is now more than covering OPEX (since last October onwards)

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Placing Adessia design work at Derby could be challenging if it diverts work from other Alstom plants.

That probably just means that R&D will stay in Derby instead of moving to Widnes. Whatever they come up with for the UK, whether it's an improved Aventra or a completely new design, will be branded as Adessia.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Regardless when the original order was made it was stated it included trains to run to OOC when completed, so the idea it isn’t possible to run the service is ridiculous. It’s far more likely these trains are to run extra core services to deal with more passengers.

Indeed - but now that Euston has been canned, even more trains will be needed at OOC than was envisaged when the order was made.

Where to fit them in might be the issue.

The core stations will take 11 cars, so an alternative might have been to extend 45 units from 9 to 11 cars. (SDO needed at several stations though).

 

[JonathanH]

The core stations will take 11 cars, so an alternative might have been to extend 45 units from 9 to 11 cars. (SDO needed at several stations though).

This 11 car thing really needs to be put out of mind until such time as someone has a load of money available to deal with the sidings. Clearly there is provision in central London at the cost of work to revise the platform doors, but the rest of the plan doesn't seem very affordable.

 

[Wolfie]

Could be both. Surplus of SWR sets transfer plus a top-up of a new order. SWR had an option for additional sets, if it hasn’t expired it could be activated to avoid tendering the requirement.

Taking that speculation further perhaps SWR could take on the 350/2s. Those plus the 458s entering service could release a decent additional number of 701s.

Of course ASLEF Southeastern would be bound to look sceptically at the 701s given the saga at SWR.

But when you look at the diagrams and that just isn’t possible. There are 65 diagrams that aren’t stabled for 70 trains. Almost all of those diagrams include working at the same time as each other. That’s 90%ish usage, higher than other fleets are managing.

Last time I went past there were about 5 in Old Oak Common.


The above being said, a lot of units just isn’t true. You’re adding 10 minutes to 50% of diagrams (Plus technically a few on the Western ones to stop). That’s a few units at best.

Regardless when the original order was made it was stated it included trains to run to OOC when completed, so the idea it isn’t possible to run the service is ridiculous. It’s far more likely these trains are to run extra core services to deal with more passengers.

Re your last para those statements were made before the barking decision to terminate HS2 at OOC. TfL have openly expressed concerns at the ability of the Elizabeth line as currently established to cope with that.

 

[Meerkat]

Alstom responded with

https://twitter.com/AlstomUK/status/1780254341162549744


They could have given them that order in January as originally promised by Harper if they wanted to save Litchurch Lane. Not entirely sure how this will help now and suspect much of the work will take place at Widnes if it does come.

They could have given the order in January, if you like being a price taker and don’t worry about taxpayer getting good value.
It’s a game of chicken - getting a better price and getting the commitments.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Re your last para those statements were made before the barking decision to terminate HS2 at OOC. TfL have openly expressed concerns at the ability of the Elizabeth line as currently established to cope with that.

Agree. There's a big difference between a proportion of passengers getting off an HS2 train and requiring onward travel to Central London and 100% of passengers on that train having to alight at OOC. The problem will be more difficult to manage eastbound, as there will be short bursts of intense passenger volumes just after an HS2 arrival, whereas passengers travelling from Central London to OOC will be more evenly spread.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Those saying that 10 units won't be enough to keep the plant open until the HS2 fleet kicks in... I would suggest watching the Green Signals interview on YouTube with the Derby boss; he makes it clear several times that Alstom are willing to invest heavily in Derby if the orders can be kept ticking over during this gap until the HS2 fleet is under construction. Link below if I've managed to copy the right one.

It's not just about this "trickle order"; they want to make Derby the place with global responsibility for their next generation design, Alessia ( or whatever it's called ) but that can only happen if there's work to bridge the current gap - which does make sense. Yes, the order should have been sorted months ago - and the interview makes that clear - and the ten units are a bit smaller in order size than he indicates would be required, but it's probably just about enough to do it...

 

[Nottingham59]

Agree. There's a big difference between a proportion of passengers getting off an HS2 train and requiring onward travel to Central London and 100% of passengers on that train having to alight at OOC. The problem will be more difficult to manage eastbound, as there will be short bursts of intense passenger volumes just after an HS2 arrival, whereas passengers travelling from Central London to OOC will be more evenly spread.

A single 345 can carry 1500 passengers, including standing. A full 400m HS2 train will only ever carry 1100 pax, and they will only arrive one at a time, with at least 3 minutes before the next one turns up. So the Elizabeth Line will be able to cope perfectly well if every other train starts empty at OOC.

 

[Wolfie]

A single 345 can carry 1500 passengers, including standing. A full 400m HS2 train will only ever carry 1100 pax, and they will only arrive one at a time, with at least 3 minutes before the next one turns up. So the Elizabeth Line will be able to cope perfectly well if every other train starts empty at OOC.

That's great for those boarding at OOC. Why the hell should passengers on the rest of the line be screwed because we have a PM with an IQ smaller than his shoe size?

 

[Kite159]

And no doubt there will be some in Alstom HQ who will be thinking about how much money they can get from the land if Derby works does close if the UK government doesn't give them a lot of money. Afterall wouldn't be the first time a French company has closed UK sites.

 

[43096]

Afterall wouldn't be the first time a French company has closed UK sites.

You mean like, er, Alstom closing Washwood Heath and shifting electrical equipment production and development to France?

 

[birchesgreen]

And no doubt there will be some in Alstom HQ who will be thinking about how much money they can get from the land if Derby works does close if the UK government doesn't give them a lot of money. Afterall wouldn't be the first time a French company has closed UK sites.

Not the first time Alstom have closed a UK site.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Why not give Derby a contract to refurbish SouthEastern 376's.... these are well overdue - assuming of course SE are keeping them

 

[RailWonderer]

They were very narrow minded refusing to build pure DMUs. GWR, Northern and Scotrail will need their sprinters replaced eventually.

 

[Kite159]

Why not give Derby a contract to refurbish SouthEastern 376's.... these are well overdue - assuming of course SE are keeping them

And have a trip to court when another company raises the valid claim that the
correct procedure wasn't followed in awarding that £X million contract.

 

[172007]

And have a trip to court when another company raises the valid claim that the
correct procedure wasn't followed in awarding that £X million contract.

Would / could a public interest argument be raised. It's such a small order it's just to keep the lights and heating on and keep a few skilled workers employed.

Plus no one else can probably build an Elizabeth line unit which is fully compatible with the existing stock.

 

[Benjwri]

Would / could a public interest argument be raised. It's such a small order it's just to keep the lights and heating on and keep a few skilled workers employed.

Plus no one else can probably build an Elizabeth line unit which is fully compatible with the existing stock.

Poster was replying to a comment about giving a totally new contract for 376 refurbishment, not the 345 situation.

 

[RUK]

And have a trip to court when another company raises the valid claim that the
correct procedure wasn't followed in awarding that £X million contract.

Would Siemens, CAF, or Hitachi be the ones refurbishing a Bombardier product, though?

 

[ScotGG]

Networkers arent 35 - 40 yet, neither are the turbos.

Its the 15x which needs priority rather than handing out contracts for sake of keeping factories open

Networkers begun testing in 91 didn't they? 33 years now. By the time an order is placed and work begins the oldest will be 35 years old. Given timescales seen elsewhere and the sheer number of them most will end up between 35-40 years old?

Personally I like them and would give them a spruce up inside and keep going assuming sufficient spare parts.

 

[JonathanH]

Would Siemens, CAF, or Hitachi be the ones refurbishing a Bombardier product, though?

Plenty of other businesses happy to repair or refurbish any sort of train, not just the manufacturers.

 

[Trainman40083]

Might the extra slack in the Class 345 fleet once the new trains are introduced mean that units could then be taken out of service to retro-fit them with plug sockets and USB charging, as the newer Aventras have? That could provide a bit of continuing work in the future for Alstom.

The original contract had an option for 18 more trains. 5 have already been taken up, and now it seems that 10 more will be. So Crossrail must still have originally envisiaged that there would be capacity to store another 3 trains on the network.

I thought the CrossRail potential order was 5 + 5, not 5 + 10.

 

[Chester1]

And given how well Derby was doing with Aventra production who would have wanted to order more?

I don't know how this fact keeps getting ignored. The follow on order of 10 units makes sense because any additional Crossrail services require Aventras to avoid the problems of a micro fleet. Why an earth does anyone think Bombardier or Alstom should have been given a major contract at Litchurch lane during the debacle with SWR and WMR units? I can't think of a more botched manufacture of new fleets. Can more mature members of this site remember worse? Alstom inherited a mess and it hasn't finished fixing it yet.

Those saying that 10 units won't be enough to keep the plant open until the HS2 fleet kicks in... I would suggest watching the Green Signals interview on YouTube with the Derby boss; he makes it clear several times that Alstom are willing to invest heavily in Derby if the orders can be kept ticking over during this gap until the HS2 fleet is under construction. Link below if I've managed to copy the right one.

It's not just about this "trickle order"; they want to make Derby the place with global responsibility for their next generation design, Alessia ( or whatever it's called ) but that can only happen if there's work to bridge the current gap - which does make sense. Yes, the order should have been sorted months ago - and the interview makes that clear - and the ten units are a bit smaller in order size than he indicates would be required, but it's probably just about enough to do it...

I was one of the people saying 10 units wasn't enough to keep Litchurch Lane open but the current plan to not start them until first half of next year means its enough. There will be no trains made at Litchurch Lane for roughly the first half of the gap between now and the start of production of HS2 units. I am not sure how that will work financially or practically!

 

[fgwrich]

Networkers begun testing in 91 didn't they? 33 years now. By the time an order is placed and work begins the oldest will be 35 years old. Given timescales seen elsewhere and the sheer number of them most will end up between 35-40 years old?

Personally I like them and would give them a spruce up inside and keep going assuming sufficient spare parts.

And you’ve hit the nail on the head in the last paragraph. Spare parts. 90s electronics are not exactly widely known for their longevity and some Turbos have since become Christmas Trees to keep other units going (both in GW and Chiltern). Likely to be the same for their Networker cousins too, which is why the more unreliable Networkers have been sent to store and why some 80s Mk3 based units will likely outlive their 90s cousins.

Of course the throwaway society that we now live in won’t have helped the search for spare components either - eg SIMS Newports almost total destruction of fleets before component recovery won’t have helped.

 

[Russel]

This is obviously very good news for the employees at Derby.

Let's hope we're not just kicking the can down the road by a few years...

But, one question that stands out to me, these 1000+ employees that were on the verge of redundancy due to no work, what exactly will they be doing between now and the start of the additional 345 order?

 

[Snow1964]

But, one question that stands out to me, these 1000+ employees that were on the verge of redundancy due to no work, what exactly will they be doing between now and the start of the additional 345 order?

Is Derby building the Innovia monorail cars for Santiago de los Caballeros, Dominican Republic and/or the batch for Bangkok ?

 

[Tezza1978]

Is Derby building the Innovia monorail cars for Santiago de los Caballeros, Dominican Republic and/or the batch for Bangkok ?

Not heard of this project or that city?

Is it related to the monorail projects at Brockway, Ogdenville, North Haverbrook and Springfield?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Is Derby building the Innovia monorail cars for Santiago de los Caballeros, Dominican Republic and/or the batch for Bangkok ?

I don't know about Bangkok, but Alstom UK's Twitter account celebrated the Santiago de los Caballeros trains with some dubious poetry on Valentine's Day.

Monorails are red,
Violets are blue.
From Derby it sped,
To Santiago it drew.
A sleek Alstom ride, a Dominican debut!