Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Peter Mugridge]

I was one of the people saying 10 units wasn't enough to keep Litchurch Lane open but the current plan to not start them until first half of next year means its enough. There will be no trains made at Litchurch Lane for roughly the first half of the gap between now and the start of production of HS2 units. I am not sure how that will work financially or practically!

I suspect it gives them the space they need to prepare for the Alessia ( or whatever it's called ) while still keeping the necessary skills* up and a bit of revenue coming in. The interview with the MD says Derby would be the worldwide centre for excellence* for that new generation of units but they did need something to ride them over in the meantime, so it'll be as much about keeping the works and staff available as anything else.

*Let's not anyone say it...!!!

 

[HSTEd]

Why not give Derby a contract to refurbish SouthEastern 376's.... these are well overdue - assuming of course SE are keeping them

The would just mean some workers at a refurbishment site lose their jobs instead.

None of this challenges the fundamental problem, which is we have massive overcapacity and a market insufficient to support four sensibly sized manufacturing complexes.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't know about Bangkok, but Alstom UK's Twitter account celebrated the Santiago de los Caballeros trains with some dubious poetry on Valentine's Day.

455s are red,
701s are blue.
From Derby it sped,
To a siding it drew.
Several years later, finally a debut...

 

[modernrail]

That's great for those boarding at OOC. Why the hell should passengers on the rest of the line be screwed because we have a PM with an IQ smaller than his shoe size?

Quite. The interchanges will be fun as well, bearing in mind the Elizabeth line does not intersect with the Victoria line or the Piccadilly Line . Some already very busy stations are going to be a mess and disbursal throughout London clumsy.

Good job it doesn’t go anywhere useful at the northern end.

 

[Trainman40083]

Is Derby building the Innovia monorail cars for Santiago de los Caballeros, Dominican Republic and/or the batch for Bangkok ?

Certainly built some for Cairo and just started delivering the order for the Dominican Republic

 

[Chester1]

The would just mean some workers at a refurbishment site lose their jobs instead.

None of this challenges the fundamental problem, which is we have massive overcapacity and a market insufficient to support four sensibly sized manufacturing complexes.

Earmarking a third of Litchurch Lane for housing would be a start to downsizing. It would facilitate a big local need and make Litchurch Lane a more appropriate size for the market. Newport is very small while Newton Aycliffe and Goole are at best medium sized. There is just about enough demand for four factories but not if one has six production lines.

 

[Nym]

Earmarking a third of Litchurch Lane for housing would be a start to downsizing. It would facilitate a big local need and make Litchurch Lane a more appropriate size for the market. Newport is very small while Newton Aycliffe and Goole are at best medium sized. There is just about enough demand for four factories but not if one has six production lines.

Except that would be a flood of housing into an area already flush with new development

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They could have given the order in January, if you like being a price taker and don’t worry about taxpayer getting good value.
It’s a game of chicken - getting a better price and getting the commitments.

five months on the price isn't going to be more competitive given all the dead cost Alstom are going to have to carry but doubt we will ever know as that will be between the rosco and Alstom with DafT/TfL just agreeing to underwrite additional leasing charges.

 

[Chester1]

Except that would be a flood of housing into an area already flush with new development

I was thinking of a public - private development company that redeveloped part of the site in a controlled manner. There are several recent examples of redevelopment of ex industrial areas of Greater Manchester through that kind of partnership. They have helped to severely limit the greenfield land zoned for building in the Greater Manchester spatial plan. There doesn't seem to be any prospect of Alstom needing six production lines in UK and the land will be wasted.

 

[Trainbike46]

They were very narrow minded refusing to build pure DMUs. GWR, Northern and Scotrail will need their sprinters replaced eventually.

If the operators and the government have any sense the sprinters won't be replaced with pure DMUs, but with BEMUs or maybe bimodes

 

[Wolfie]

They were very narrow minded refusing to build pure DMUs. GWR, Northern and Scotrail will need their sprinters replaced eventually.

Given that they were told by their major customer (i.e. HMG) that there would be no future DMU procurement that seems eminently sensible at the time.

 

[Chester1]

Given that they were told by their major customer (i.e. HMG) that there would be no future DMU procurement that seems eminently sensible at the time.

They haven't managed to win a UK bi mode order though and that is a weakness. The Northern, WMR and TfW DMU orders couldn't have been done alongside Crossrail and they were relatively small. CAF was the right company to win the final DMU orders, they produced a decent product at a small scale. They wanted to use the 195/196/197 to get established in the UK while Bombardier and Hitachi had bigger fish to fry.

 

[TomH1994]

Think the only proven Bi Mode products that aren’t long distance trains are stadler FLIRT’s at the moment. Whether the government will sanction more of them due to price is a different matter. Alstom I doubt would win as they don’t have a bi mode product for the UK

 

[wickham]

It has been mentioned on this thread that some of Derby's suppliers have ceased to trade due to the lack of orders. If that is so, it is quite possible that some items of equipment etc. that were fitted to the original 345s may not be avaliable any more and substitute items may have to be fitted, making this new batch slightly different.
Time will tell !

 

[Meerkat]

five months on the price isn't going to be more competitive given all the dead cost Alstom are going to have to carry but doubt we will ever know as that will be between the rosco and Alstom with DafT/TfL just agreeing to underwrite additional leasing charges.

The first price quoted may well have been at ‘they wouldn’t dare let us close down’ levels.
Then after a few months Alstom might have started to think ‘you know they might, and then we might not get another UK order…..’ and have taken a more long term view of what price they were prepared to offer.
By the sound of it that process is not complete yet as the Treasury will play chicken now.

 

[NewcastleBrown]

If they are exercising an existing option on the 345s, surely the price will already be specified in the contract? You might be able to negotiate it down with brinksmanship, but would it not provide the maximum ceiling?

 

[Nym]

The options have expired

 

[RUK]

I thought the CrossRail potential order was 5 + 5, not 5 + 10.

Crossrail originally ordered 65 Class 345s in 2014, which began to be built in 2015, and the first was completed in 2016. They took up an option for 5 more trains in March 2018, which have already been built, so they already have 70 trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So just when anyone good has found alternative employment they’ll try to restart with all contractors, quality will be low and then that will be the last contract that is delivered by Derby

That is my feeling. The first to go will have been the staff who can easily find an alternative job. They will not come back unless their new employer looks to have a more insecure future than Derby Litchurch Lane has had for a while.

 

[Snow1964]

Statement from the Leader of Derby City Council, Councillor Baggy Shanker, on the Government's commitment to the future of Alstom's train manufacturing in Derby:

We received a letter on Wednesday from the Secretary of State for Transport Mark Harper MP in response to the letters I sent last week. Mr Harper has outlined in his response that a further five Elizabeth line trains have been approved in principle for manufacture at the Derby site. This is in addition to the five trains that were confirmed in March, will make a total of ten trains.

Alstom can now commit to the site in the short and long term, protecting valuable manufacturing and engineering jobs in our city. I'm especially pleased that Alstom has committed to basing the new global Adessia commuter train platform here in Derby - that's a real win.

We will continue to press the Government to complete the deal and commit to keeping this industry alive in the city, especially for the 1300 jobs that are at risk. Without these orders and the promise of future support, we will lose train-making in the UK forever and put almost two centuries of local rail heritage at risk.

As a city, we’ll continue to work closely with our partners at Alstom and with the Secretary of State to bridge this gap and keep train making in Derby. The Government needs to ensure rail procurement is better planned in the future to avoid this feast and famine approach to train building in the UK.
I’d like to thank everyone in Team Derby who has come together to give their support on such a vital issue for the prosperity of our city.

I'm intrigued by bit about basing the adessia platform at Derby

Council responds to Government commitment on train building - Derby City Council

The Leader of Derby City Council, Councillor Baggy Shanker, has welcomed a letter from the Secretary of State for Transport regarding the future of Alstom in Derby

www.derby.gov.uk

 

[Trainman40083]

Statement from the Leader of Derby City Council, Councillor Baggy Shanker, on the Government's commitment to the future of Alstom's train manufacturing in Derby:



I'm intrigued by bit about basing the adessia platform at Derby

Council responds to Government commitment on train building - Derby City Council

The Leader of Derby City Council, Councillor Baggy Shanker, has welcomed a letter from the Secretary of State for Transport regarding the future of Alstom in Derby

www.derby.gov.uk

Yes, I think the bit about Adessia is the more interesting part.

 

[HSTEd]

It was 2,000 job losses, now it is 1,300 at risk?

I assume the 700 are already gone?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, I think the bit about Adessia is the more interesting part.

That's detailed in the Green Signals interview I linked in post #910 ( even if I did remember the name of the new train slightly wrongly! ).

In Alstom's world, every type of train belongs to a specific factory - the intention is that this one will be Derby's global responsibility. They needed the "trickle" order to keep the plant ticking over to allow that to happen.

 

[The Ham]

Except that would be a flood of housing into an area already flush with new development

Thing is any new housing proposal put forward now would be at least 5 years to go through the planning process (longer if it's not in the local plan yet).

A site locally to us was in planning before we had children, our eldest was near the end of junior school when we moved into one of the last houses built on a site with about 600 homes.

Even if the start overlapped with other developments finishing off a local area can have a few hundred new homes a year being delivered and not noticeably impact house prices. Especially if the developers offer different things (a developer offering town houses won't be troubled by someone offering flats who or someone else offering traditional houses).

Some brands, even owned by the same company, don't even trouble each other and can easily deliver 75 houses a year each without impacting what they can sell for.

 

[Bryson]

It was 2,000 job losses, now it is 1,300 at risk?

I assume the 700 are already gone?

More likely that 1,300 had received 'At Risk' letters with the remaining 700 not yet issued because they were expected to be employed a little longer or transferred elsewhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

More likely that 1,300 had received 'At Risk' letters with the remaining 700 not yet issued because they were expected to be employed a little longer or transferred elsewhere.

There are pictures on social media of 32 staff in the bodyshop welding unit at Alstom Derby who are leaving next week, showing that workforce reduction is in progress.
The recent statements from the DfT will not reverse that process, but it will stop it reaching full closure.

The Adessia design base is very interesting, as it appears it might cover some continental applications as well as those in the UK.
We'll have to see if it generates more than the output that would have come to Derby anyway as the localisation base for Alstom products.
Having some export content with Derby IPR would make all the difference to relying on purely UK orders.
However I'm not sure Alstom has quite said that is the situation, just (so far) that Derby will have Adessia work.

 

[hwl]

The Adessia design base is very interesting, as it appears it might cover some continental applications as well as those in the UK.
We'll have to see if it generates more than the output that would have come to Derby anyway as the localisation base for Alstom products.
Having some export content with Derby IPR would make all the difference to relying on purely UK orders.
However I'm not sure Alstom has quite said that is the situation, just (so far) that Derby will have Adessia work.

As I wrote few pages ago Alstom has had to dispose of two continental MU platforms (including brands and license the IP if they they continue to use themselves or hand over the IP if they don't) for one ex Alstom France (Coradia PV, multi-mode EMU) and for one ex Bombardier Germany (Talent3, multi-mode EMU) in get commission approval for the merger (Both later bought by CAF) and some Zefiro High speed platform IP (Italy, Spain and HS2)

In the case of Bombardier the Talent3 platform share a lot of technology and IP with Aventra (effectively its continental cousin). In order to full defend the ex Bombardier IP value in the long term, Alstom has to develop new continental platforms based on the shared IP so they can continue to charge CAF license fees if they are still using the IP they developed pre merger.

For the continental regional / commuter market Alstom therefore needs:
a) a new name for a Europe wide non HS multi-mode EMU platform name
b) that platform should ideally use as much Aventra IP as possible or IP that has as much in common with other retained Alstom or Bombardier IP!
c) keep using and developing Eco-flex bogies for at least 15 years.

Derby is rather useful in ticking those boxes...

 

[Snow1964]

As I wrote few pages ago Alstom has had to dispose of two continental MU platforms (including brands and license the IP if they they continue to use themselves or hand over the IP if they don't) for one ex Alstom France (Coradia PV, multi-mode EMU) and for one ex Bombardier Germany (Talent3, multi-mode EMU) in get commission approval for the merger (Both later bought by CAF) and some Zefiro High speed platform IP (Italy, Spain and HS2)

In the case of Bombardier the Talent3 platform share a lot of technology and IP with Aventra (effectively its continental cousin). In order to full defend the ex Bombardier IP value in the long term, Alstom has to develop new continental platforms based on the shared IP so they can continue to charge CAF license fees if they are still using the IP they developed pre merger.

For the continental regional / commuter market Alstom therefore needs:
a) a new name for a Europe wide non HS multi-mode EMU platform name
b) that platform should ideally use as much Aventra IP as possible or IP that has as much in common with other retained Alstom or Bombardier IP!
c) keep using and developing Eco-flex bogies for at least 15 years.

Derby is rather useful in ticking those boxes...

I had read elsewhere (sorry can't find link now) that the Adessia is basically a new family name. The article suggested that Alstom want a standard modular software because unique software is delaying things and high risk, So seems it could easily be an Aventra bodyshells with different wiring loom and control process.

Sounds to me like intention is to go back to basics, design a go anywhere control system, have standard electronics, fit it in appropriate body for the market, move away from reinventing the wheel with variations to the software. Almost a tickbox of what options are fitted and physically connected. What I once heard described as Lego brick approach, if you add some, rest of it shouldn't need altering.

After all in theory, regardless of it is 8car double deck TGV or a commuter train the principle requirements should be the same : power system; motors; braking; saloon climate control; doors; monitoring etc. Just the parameters change not the basic system.

 

[hwl]

That's detailed in the Green Signals interview I linked in post #910 ( even if I did remember the name of the new train slightly wrongly! ).

In Alstom's world, every type of train belongs to a specific factory - the intention is that this one will be Derby's global responsibility. They needed the "trickle" order to keep the plant ticking over to allow that to happen.

It is a bit more complicated than that especially as philosophy has changed/adapted post Bombardier.
Most trains belong to a belong to a final assembly facility linked to platform design.

There are technology centres of excellence for components /shared architecture design which often feed multiple platforms most of the retained ones are ex Bombardier, lots of Alstom has gone especially in the historic home turf of Alsace-Lorraine (Alsace Thomson ...)
Lower Saxony - Hydrogen ex Alstom Germany
Siegen - Bogie manufacture (ex Bombardier)
Mannheim - TCMS architecture and electronics manufacture (ex Bombardier)
Vasteras - Traction system for EMUs (ex Bombardier) and power electronics manufacture
Zurich - traction systems for locomotive and high speed (ex Bombardier) - Alstom just used to buy their in freight loco stuff from ABB so this was a very easy choice; rolling stock energy efficiency; traction system testing

 

[Wolfie]

I had read elsewhere (sorry can't find link now) that the Adessia is basically a new family name. The article suggested that Alstom want a standard modular software because unique software is delaying things and high risk, So seems it could easily be an Aventra bodyshells with different wiring loom and control process.

Sounds to me like intention is to go back to basics, design a go anywhere control system, have standard electronics, fit it in appropriate body for the market, move away from reinventing the wheel with variations to the software. Almost a tickbox of what options are fitted and physically connected. What I once heard described as Lego brick approach, if you add some, rest of it shouldn't need altering.

After all in theory, regardless of it is 8car double deck TGV or a commuter train the principle requirements should be the same : power system; motors; braking; saloon climate control; doors; monitoring etc. Just the parameters change not the basic system.

In IT the terminology is "plug and play". Build to specification using standard modules....