Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Dan G]

My bold. Sticking to procurement from solely UK factories would not fit the competition rules but we could then threaten to buy from abroad if the bids from UK factories are not competitive enough. Stadler Flirt anybody ? - hmmmm.

It's an interesting one; given Britain's unique requirements for rail vehicles it's not surprising that trains designed and built in Britain can win tenders. Of course sometimes they don't – IEP and Thameslink being the most notable occasions.

(I wonder where Bombardier designed the Voyagers?)

Edit: fix double negative (doh)

 

[Meerkat]

Did Britain ever export large amounts of railway stock outside of captive Empire/commonwealth markets?

 

[birchesgreen]

Did Britain ever export large amounts of railway stock outside of captive Empire/commonwealth markets?

English Electric produced electric locos for places like Japan, Venezuela and Argentina before the war.

 

[Meerkat]

English Electric produced electric locos for places like Japan, Venezuela and Argentina before the war.

Which would follow with my thought that the more developed the world gets in general the less chance there is that Britain can export medium tech engineering.
Even if you developed it here you would probably build it in or close to the market.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

English Electric produced electric locos for places like Japan, Venezuela and Argentina before the war.

and for Poland and Portugal post war

 

[birchesgreen]

Which would follow with my thought that the more developed the world gets in general the less chance there is that Britain can export medium tech engineering.
Even if you developed it here you would probably build it in or close to the market.

Well you have to continue developing to compete, something other countries are better at than we are sometimes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Did Britain ever export large amounts of railway stock outside of captive Empire/commonwealth markets?

British locomotives formed the initial power for many European railways, but once the locals had figured out how to build them themselves, the market soon dried up.
British companies designed and built railways all over the world pre-WW1.

 

[Meerkat]

Well you have to continue developing to compete, something other countries are better at than we are sometimes.

We have, that’s why we don’t export trains any more.

 

[Mikey C]

And a big difference between exporting locos and exporting carriages/multiple units as well. Even when we exported locos, I doubt we built the carriages to go with them, especially to Europe with its difference loading gauge.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I believe most of Clayton's shunting/industrial locos are exported.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Out of curiosity have Aventras been offered with battery or DMU?

Mentioned in dispatches, I think you can say. Even a 125mph bi-mode at one point.
But never taken up by the DfT/Roscos/TOCs who went to Hitachi or Stadler and now CAF for other than straight EMUs.

I didn't know, until reading this thread that the HS2 fleet will be produced in Derby...
That prospect doesn't fill me confidence.

That's not quite the position.
The HS2 rolling stock design and bid was a joint Hitachi-Bombardier effort, understood to be based on the Zefiro/Frecciarossa 1000 design for Trenitalia.
This was principally a Bombardier (Germany/Italy) design but built at the ex-Ansaldo Pistoia site which now belongs to Hitachi (where it built the class 802 fleet).
There isn't much Derby/Aventra content in the design.

During the Alstom-Bombardier takeover, new Alstom sold the Zefiro design to Hitachi to meet competition demands, so Hitachi own the design.
When the dust settled on the HS2 order and the Alstom-Bombardier merger, production is to be a 50-50 joint venture between Hitachi and Alstom.
Hitachi will produce the body shells at Newton Aycliffe, and Alstom at Derby will fit them out.
The components will come from all over, and the bogies will come from Alstom Crewe (ex-Bombardier).
The design is still in progress and details have not been finalised, nor delivery dates agreed.
HS2 has not even let the contracts to build the railway system yet.
There is work for 3 UK factories (Newton Aycliffe, Derby, Crewe) in the contract for 54x8-car trains, and maybe for other UK sites as subcontractors.

 

[WarrenTManager]

I recall a similar diagram for the Hitachi IEP (800/801), showing many UK parts.
Nevertheless, a large number of parts, particularly the high-value ones, were made abroad, mostly in Japan of course for the 80x.
The diagrams really amount to a procurement map, and don't necessarily mean the underlying parts came from the UK.
Many will be sourced by the suppliers from Europe and the far east, notably China, though some added value will be retained in the UK.
eg I doubt the Aventra train radio from Siemens UK was actually manufactured in the UK.

A lot of GSM-R kit came from Poole

 

[Invincible]

A lot of GSM-R kit came from Poole

Now Chippenham, and in 2026 will move to a new factory.

Siemens Mobility boost for Chippenham - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article The recent announcement by Siemens Mobility to invest £100 million in the building of new premises in Chippenham was well received and duly reported by press releases on 4 March. Some of us were lucky to be invited to the associated press conference where the guest of...

www.railengineer.co.uk

 

[Nym]

A lot of GSM-R kit came from Poole

Which specified German antennas, German handsets, German cable and used almost exclusively far eastern electronics inside.

 

[Jelliot1]

I believe most of Clayton's shunting/industrial locos are exported.

 

[Dan G]

Which specified German antennas, German handsets, German cable and used almost exclusively far eastern electronics inside.

You really need to google "comparative advantage"

 

[HSTEd]

You really need to google "comparative advantage"

Ultimately if the parts are all imported and constitute the vast majority of the value of the item, I'm not sure what the advantage of having the final assembly be in the UK rather than simply letting that happen somewhere else.

There is apparently no comparative advantage in train assembly in the UK, which is why the market keeps trying to either kill it or obtain subsidies from the government for it to continue.

 

[Wolfie]

All the main train makers in this country have plants in the EU and elsewhere. Why would they want to export from here? The only train exporters we have are very small specialists like Clayton.

Yup, those plants are in the single market, the UK isn't so a shedload of additional bureaucracy bites....

Is it possible to create a steady stream of work for four factories?
I'm guessing either a steady stream for fewer, maybe, but still very hard to organise within procurement regulations.

That was exactly my thought.

 

[Mikey C]

Yup, those plants are in the single market, the UK isn't so a shedload of additional bureaucracy bites....

But an insignificant issue when compared to the different loading gauge. After all it's not as if we exported trains to the EU before Brexit anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I didn't realise before seeing the Alstom news item for their X'Trapolis build for Irish Rail (DART+), that in organisational terms UK and Ireland have the same senior Alstom management.

https://www.alstom.com/sites/alstom.com/files/2023/03/16/Alstom_in_UK_Ireland_Country_Sheet_September_2023_EN.pdf

So there is at least some incentive to spread work within the UK & Ireland division.
However, the DART+ build is taking place in Poland (Katowice), so neither Ireland nor the UK appear to be benefitting from the construction contract.
Poland is also the source of vehicle bodies for Stadler (class 777).
Hungary is another source for Stadler rail vehicle construction, even if the contract is with a Swiss company.
Train manufacture has become a very complex business, with little vertical integration at a single site like Derby, or even within one country.

 

[Wolfie]

I didn't realise before seeing the Alstom news item for their X'Trapolis build for Irish Rail (DART+), that in organisational terms UK and Ireland have the same senior Alstom management.

https://www.alstom.com/sites/alstom.com/files/2023/03/16/Alstom_in_UK_Ireland_Country_Sheet_September_2023_EN.pdf

So there is at least some incentive to spread work within the UK & Ireland division.
However, the DART+ build is taking place in Poland (Katowice), so neither Ireland nor the UK appear to be benefitting from the construction contract.
Poland is also the source of vehicle bodies for Stadler (class 777).
Hungary is another source for Stadler rail vehicle construction, even if the contract is with a Swiss company.
Train manufacture has become a very complex business, with little vertical integration at a single site like Derby, or even within one country.

Specialised centres of excellence.... in the same way that certain key suppliers meet the requirements of both Boeing and Airbus.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Specialised centres of excellence.... in the same way that certain key suppliers meet the requirements of both Boeing and Airbus.

Yes I realise that - I see the Belugas ferrying Airbus wings from Broughton to Toulouse/Bremen/Hamburg for final assembly most days.
But it rather diminishes the Derby argument that it uniquely can do all these tasks on one site, and that no UK orders = closure.

 

[Invincible]

Yes I realise that - I see the Belugas ferrying Airbus wings from Broughton to Toulouse/Bremen/Hamburg for final assembly most days.
But it rather diminishes the Derby argument that it uniquely can do all these tasks on one site, and that no UK orders = closure.

For the HS2 order the bodies will be built in Newton Aycliffe, bogies in Crewe, radios most likely in Chippenham and build in Derby.
Once the 345 orders are complete does still put a question mark over the Derby body building section?
Export orders from the UK are unlikely.
Will Alstom bid for new UK orders with Aventra (as BEMUs) or X'Trapolis platforms?
And assuming they win one or more of the bids with the X'Trapolis platform, then there is possibility that Poland can build the bodies cheaper, even with shipping and any import duties from the EU?
Still lots of uncertainty?.

 

[DanNCL]

For the HS2 order the bodies will be built in Newton Aycliffe, bogies in Crewe, radios most likely in Chippenham and build in Derby.
Once the 345 orders are complete does still put a question mark over the Derby body building section?
Export orders from the UK are unlikely.
Will Alstom bid for new UK orders with Aventra (as BEMUs) or X'Trapolis platforms?
And assuming they win one or more of the bids with the X'Trapolis platform, then there is possibility that Poland can build the bodies cheaper, even with shipping and any import duties from the EU?
Still lots of uncertainty?.

They’ll bid with Adessia which takes from both Aventra and X’Trapolis platforms as well as the Coradia platform.

 

[YorkRailFan]

For the HS2 order the bodies will be built in Newton Aycliffe, bogies in Crewe, radios most likely in Chippenham and build in Derby.
Once the 345 orders are complete does still put a question mark over the Derby body building section?
Export orders from the UK are unlikely.
Will Alstom bid for new UK orders with Aventra (as BEMUs) or X'Trapolis platforms?
And assuming they win one or more of the bids with the X'Trapolis platform, then there is possibility that Poland can build the bodies cheaper, even with shipping and any import duties from the EU?
Still lots of uncertainty?.

By the time that happens, the SE tender, TPE tender, Northern tender and Chiltern tender will be nearing conformation of the manufacturer.

 

[Thirteen]

The X'Trapolis would suit the Chiltern lines but I assume the Adessia can be BEMUs?

 

[Trainman40083]

For the HS2 order the bodies will be built in Newton Aycliffe, bogies in Crewe, radios most likely in Chippenham and build in Derby.
Once the 345 orders are complete does still put a question mark over the Derby body building section?
Export orders from the UK are unlikely.
Will Alstom bid for new UK orders with Aventra (as BEMUs) or X'Trapolis platforms?
And assuming they win one or more of the bids with the X'Trapolis platform, then there is possibility that Poland can build the bodies cheaper, even with shipping and any import duties from the EU?
Still lots of uncertainty?.

Maybe Derby hopes to benefit from the probable South Eastern order.

 

[Invincible]

Maybe Derby hopes to benefit from the probable South Eastern order.

Of course Derby would hope to get the SE order in December or later?.
But so would all the other manufacturers who will also put in good bids, and ideally provide sample trains to test on the SE lines to ensure they are suitable. (If that's how it works with the DfT?.

By December it might be a Labour Government who could help keep the production in the UK and help the Derby factory assembly lines and perhaps delay other tenders to reduce a boom and bust production.

 

[43066]

Maybe Derby hopes to benefit from the probable South Eastern order.

Is there a probable Southeastern order?

 

[Trainman40083]

Is there a probable Southeastern order?

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