Poulton-Fleetwood reopening - more details announced.

[CAF397]

In a letter to Mr Maynard, Rail Minister Huw Merriman has set out for the first time how the Government intends to restore the rail link.

New details have been released about how the Poulton to Fleetwood line will be reopened, and what trains will likely operate.

In his letter to Mr Maynard the Minister said: “The early work has indicated that a tram-train is likely to be the best performing option, helping to maximise connectivity along the Wyre peninsula.

“Services would operate twice hourly from Preston station to Poulton-le-Fylde over the existing heavy rail network, before joining a new light rail link between Poulton-le-Fylde and the Denham Way roundabout on Amounderness Way, calling at up to three new intermediate stops.

This is how Fleetwood's rail link with Poulton is going to be restored, says Government

New details have emerged about how the Government plans to restore the rail link between Fleetwood and Poulton using state-of-the-art tram-train technology.

www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk

 

[Djgr]

Don't hold your breath. Has Red Wall fudge written all over it.

 

[AntoniC]

New details have been released about how the Poulton to Fleetwood line will be reopened, and what trains will likely operate.

This is how Fleetwood's rail link with Poulton is going to be restored, says Government

New details have emerged about how the Government plans to restore the rail link between Fleetwood and Poulton using state-of-the-art tram-train technology.

www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk

Is there a General Election soon ?

What happens if the Tories lose their Red Wall seats - does this mean the proposed plan will die ?

 

[Mikey C]

Connecting into the existing tram line for the run into Fleetwood makes a lot more sense than running a separate line into Fleetwood.

“Services would operate twice hourly from Preston station to Poulton-le-Fylde over the existing heavy rail network, before joining a new light rail link between Poulton-le-Fylde and the Denham Way roundabout on Amounderness Way, calling at up to three new intermediate stops.

“From there, the services would continue on the existing Blackpool tram network towards Fleetwood town centre and Fleetwood ferry terminal.”

 

[30907]

What's the current linespeed Preston-Poulton, and how would 50mph(?) tram-trains fit with that? I foresee a pure tram ending at Poulton.

(Though if it is workable, the next step would logically be to convert Blackpool S/Squires Gate-Preston.)

 

[The Planner]

What's the current linespeed Preston-Poulton, and how would 50mph(?) tram-trains fit with that? I foresee a pure tram ending at Poulton.

(Though if it is workable, the next step would logically be to convert Blackpool S/Squires Gate-Preston.)

70 and 75 max.

 

[Some guy]

The Blackpool tram or the tram/train operator they are thinking of operating all the way to Preston via fleetwood will be absolutely brilliant and provide direct services to the ferry terminal

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes all speculation as far as I am concerned.

 

[randyrippley]

The Blackpool tram or the tram/train operator they are thinking of operating all the way to Preston via fleetwood will be absolutely brilliant and provide direct services to the ferry terminal

what use is that when there's no passenger ferries from Fleetwood?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

what use is that when there's no passenger ferries from Fleetwood?

Knott End Ferry!

 

[randyrippley]

Knott End Ferry!

that's really going to justify a rail connection...........

 

[Whistler40145]

what use is that when there's no passenger ferries from Fleetwood?

The only ferry is to Knott End on Sea

 

[Class 170101]

No money allocated to the announcement as far as I can see in the article.

Secondly is there actually space at Preston for 2tph extra?
And thirdly how are tram trains distinguished such that when they leave Preston they head to Fleetwood and not Blackpool North / South and secondly in reverse from Fleetwood direction only tram train joins at Poulton and not just an ordinary tram? (Perhaps Sheefield is a better real world example but hopefully you get my drift?)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Interlocks with signalling. It works at Pelaw....

or Ealing Broadway.....

 

[The Planner]

No money allocated to the announcement as far as I can see in the article.

Secondly is there actually space at Preston for 2tph extra?
And thirdly how are tram trains distinguished such that when they leave Preston they head to Fleetwood and not Blackpool North / South and secondly in reverse from Fleetwood direction only tram train joins at Poulton and not just an ordinary tram? (Perhaps Sheefield is a better real world example but hopefully you get my drift?)

You give them specific headcode letters or numbers, run them as 9xxx like we do elsewhere to distinguish a specific routing. As for not routing a tram onto the network, the same way as a driver when they get offered a wrong route, or you put in a bay at Poulton. By the time this ever happens Preston will likely be in the middle of a remodeling anyway.

 

[SargeNpton]

Off-topic: Blackpool Gazette gets this week's award for the worst designed website to attempt to read an article on.

 

[Class 170101]

You give them specific headcode letters or numbers, run them as 9xxx like we do elsewhere to distinguish a specific routing. As for not routing a tram onto the network, the same way as a driver when they get offered a wrong route, or you put in a bay at Poulton. By the time this ever happens Preston will likely be in the middle of a remodeling anyway.

I wasn't thinking in the signalling sense of different headcodes as trains can have wrong headcodes attached and drivers can make mistakes. I was thinking of something like on the Underground where there is detection between a tube train and a sub-surface one where something is smashed (apparently) and stops District Line trains entering the Piccadilly tunnels near Barons Court (for example).

 

[The Planner]

I wasn't thinking in the signalling sense of different headcodes as trains can have wrong headcodes attached and drivers can make mistakes. I was thinking of something like on the Underground where there is detection between a tube train and a sub-surface one where something is smashed (apparently) and stops District Line trains entering the Piccadilly tunnels near Barons Court (for example).

It clearly cannot be an issue as it works ok on the DC lines with the Bakerloo, at Harrow and Queens Park where tube and heavy rail interact.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So are we looking at 600V DC/25kV AC dual voltage tram-trains, capable of running on the Blackpool tram network and NR to Preston?
That sounds awkwardly unique.
The mix between Poulton and Preston doesn't look efficient on an upgraded route (50mph tram-trains interworking with faster 331/390 services).
I suppose it could be a useful solution at Salwick, removing Northern calls.
You could also see the tram-trains runnng Blackpool North-Poulton-Fleetwood and picking up local stops.
Amusing that Huw Merriman is briefing Paul Maynard, a previous (and very capable) rail minister, MP for Blackpool North and Clevelys.

 

[Halish Railway]

I think it’s likely that 100kph/62mph tram trains would be ordered in the style of the TfW Class 398s.

Regarding the comments of this being a niche microfleet, if they’re implementing a tram-train solution for Fleetwood, they might as well do the same thing with the Blackpool South branch, with the route being linked with the existing Promenade tramway. Should the scheme succeed I can see a number of tram-train routes opening across the north of England.

I’d imagine that more terminating platforms would be required at Preston, although I’m not sure how that could be done.

 

[The Planner]

I’d imagine that more terminating platforms would be required at Preston, although I’m not sure how that could be done.

Parcels platform becomes platform 0

 

[kevjs]

I think it’s likely that 100kph/62mph tram trains would be ordered in the style of the TfW Class 398s.

Regarding the comments of this being a niche microfleet, if they’re implementing a tram-train solution for Fleetwood, they might as well do the same thing with the Blackpool South branch, with the route being linked with the existing Promenade tramway. Should the scheme succeed I can see a number of tram-train routes opening across the north of England.

I’d imagine that more terminating platforms would be required at Preston, although I’m not sure how that could be done.

Aren't there three unused platforms (one through, one north facing bay, one south facing bay) at the western side of the station that could be brought into use with some modernisation? Or do the Royal Mail make extensive use of them again?

 

[NotATrainspott]

So are we looking at 600V DC/25kV AC dual voltage tram-trains, capable of running on the Blackpool tram network and NR to Preston?
That sounds awkwardly unique.
The mix between Poulton and Preston doesn't look efficient on an upgraded route (50mph tram-trains interworking with faster 331/390 services).
I suppose it could be a useful solution at Salwick, removing Northern calls.
You could also see the tram-trains runnng Blackpool North-Poulton-Fleetwood and picking up local stops.
Amusing that Huw Merriman is briefing Paul Maynard, a previous (and very capable) rail minister, MP for Blackpool North and Clevelys.

For comparison, the London Underground network is 630V four-rail, but is generally cross-compatible with 750V third rail. Some lines were boosted to 750V when the S-Stock came in. These are nominal voltages anyway, and trains need to be able to handle voltage drops when they are far from feeder sites. So, I don't think it's really that difficult to build a dual-voltage tram that can handle 600V. That's a standard voltage for upgraded Gen 1 tramways around the world and there will almost certainly be some tram-train projects on these, so the addressable market for a 600V-25kV certified system almost certainly isn't just limited to Blackpool.

The idea of taking over the Blackpool South line isn't new and I think it's worthwhile. If nothing else, handing passenger lines over from Network Rail to a local transport operator who can better integrate them with other local transport and developments is a good idea. Post-conversion a line like this would likely cost far less in operational subsidy than either today, or a future with more modern electrified heavy rail services. Spending money on stringing up 25kV to Blackpool South seems unlikely if a comparable investment could do so much more for the local area.

 

[childwallblues]

The Blackpool tram or the tram/train operator they are thinking of operating all the way to Preston via fleetwood will be absolutely brilliant and provide direct services to the ferry terminal

Is there still a ferry?

 

[snowball]

Is there still a ferry?

See #9-#12.

 

[D6975]

Yet more political posturing.
The realistic possibility is just to extend the trams down to a seperate platform at Poulton, but even that is a bit optimistic.

 

[Whistler40145]

I'm not sure if Poulton-le-Fylde could fit another platform

 

[furnessvale]

I'm not sure if Poulton-le-Fylde could fit another platform

There used to be a loading dock on the east side which, if it is still there, could be adapted.

 

[GardenRail]

Interlocks with signalling. It works at Pelaw....

or Ealing Broadway.....

Yep. On the Sheffield System, we have what are known as VIS Loops. They stop mainline signals clearing on to tram infrastructure for anything other than a tramtrain. They are located at Tinsley East and Parkgste.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Will Preston, Poulton, Thornton, and the Fleetwood stops all have high platforms, like Metrolink?