PPM Abuse (Euston - Virgin Trains - "overtaken" by London Midland)

Status
Not open for further replies.

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,053
From 16 May 2016, the 08:15 Manchester to London Euston VT service is timed to "arrive" in Euston, according to the public timetable, at 10:30*. It will depart Milton Keynes at 09:49 and use the fast line between Milton Keynes and Euston.

From 16 May 2016, the 07:55 Crewe to Euston LM service is timed to "arrive" in Euston, according to the public (and working) timetable, at 10:29. It will depart Milton Keynes at 09:54 and use the fast line between Milton Keynes and Euston.

I believe there is only one southbound fast line between Milton Keynes and Euston. Is anyone therefore able to explain how a 110mph Class 350 train is going to be able to overtake a 125mph Class 390 train on the same line?

Journey planners are suggesting that passengers alight the Virgin Trains service from Manchester at Milton Keynes to connect with the "express" London Midland service to Euston!

*Intriguingly, the printed Virgin Trains timetable gives the arrival time as 10:26 (which is the arrival time specified in the working timetable), despite the printed timetable using public timetable arrival times for almost all other trains.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
8,742
Location
Yorkshire
Presumably in the same way as the Chiltern service leaving Birmingham Moor St at 09:55 and arriving at Snow Hill at 10:02 this morning is "overtaken" by the London Midland service leaving Moor St at 09:59 and arriving at Snow Hill at 10:01....

It's hardly a new concept and I can only hope your question is rhetoric.....

However, I will give you that having it such that journey planners suggest a change is a bit silly!
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,053
Presumably in the same way as the Chiltern service leaving Birmingham Moor St at 09:55 and arriving at Snow Hill at 10:02 this morning is "overtaken" by the London Midland service leaving Moor St at 09:59 and arriving at Snow Hill at 10:01....

That is opportunistic on Chiltern's part.

It surprises me that London Midland almost always has identical PTT and WTT arrival times despite being subject to more stringent PPM measures than Virgin Trains. All the more credit to London Midland.

I can only hope your question is rhetoric.

It may be just a little cynical...
 

greatkingrat

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2011
Messages
2,270
LM should request a larger share of the ORCATS pie to reflect their faster journey opportunities :D
 

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
1,963
Location
Dubai
From 16 May 2016, the 08:15 Manchester to London Euston VT service is timed to "arrive" in Euston, according to the public timetable, at 10:30*. It will depart Milton Keynes at 09:49 and use the fast line between Milton Keynes and Euston.

From 16 May 2016, the 07:55 Crewe to Euston LM service is timed to "arrive" in Euston, according to the public (and working) timetable, at 10:29. It will depart Milton Keynes at 09:54 and use the fast line between Milton Keynes and Euston.

I believe there is only one southbound fast line between Milton Keynes and Euston. Is anyone therefore able to explain how a 110mph Class 350 train is going to be able to overtake a 125mph Class 390 train on the same line?

Journey planners are suggesting that passengers alight the Virgin Trains service from Manchester at Milton Keynes to connect with the "express" London Midland service to Euston!

*Intriguingly, the printed Virgin Trains timetable gives the arrival time as 10:26 (which is the arrival time specified in the working timetable), despite the printed timetable using public timetable arrival times for almost all other trains.

MAN - Manchester Picadilly
CRE - Crewe
EUS - London Euston

1A12 08:15 MAN - EUS

1U22 07:55 CRE - EUS

RTT has 1U22 arriving at 10:32 in the public timetable, and 1A12 arriving at 10:30 in the public timetable. So what's the problem exactly.

Also it's perfectly possible for one to overtake the other after Camden Junction.

Journey planners aren't advising me to change off of 1A12 at Milton Keynes. I've even checked the dreaded trainline.
 
Last edited:

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
8,742
Location
Yorkshire
MAN - Manchester Picadilly
CRE - Crewe
EUS - London Euston

1A12 08:15 MAN - EUS

1U22 07:55 CRE - EUS

RTT has 1U22 arriving at 10:32 in the public timetable, and 1A12 arriving at 10:30 in the public timetable. So what's the problem exactly.

Also it's perfectly possible for one to overtake the other after Camden Junction.

Journey planners aren't advising me to change off of 1A12 at Milton Keynes. I've even checked the dreaded trainline.

Looking at 1A12, is currently appears to take Line D after Camden Junction and from 16th May is booked to take Line A (with the LM taking Line D), so it could well be correct (the VT will be running a little later than it does currently)
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
15,470
Location
Mold, Clwyd
RTT shows that the VT has 6 minutes of allowances south of Milton Keynes (net time 31 minutes), whereas the LM has 3 minutes (net time 33 minutes).
That will play a part in the arrival timings at Euston.
 
Last edited:

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
11,192
Ignore the engineering allowance, that would be there regardless. The rest is to allow 1W70 to swap to the fasts in front of 1A12.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top