Preferred site for Skelmersdale's first railway station revealed

[mwmbwls]

This is not part of the country I know much, and, after looking at modern maps, I had a look at an old map, from 1953: what do we have, a little town called Skelmersdale, with a railway station with links to Liverpool via Ormskirk, and to Wigan, St Helens and other towns. It becomes a new town and... the railway is closed. Now that's what I call joined-up thinking.

I annex a few slides from a lecture on building the railway back into Skelmersdale.

The old railway linked Ormskirk and Rainford Junction and was always operated as a shuttle service. There was a matching shuttle from Rainford to St Helens - with the closure of the local coal mines there was no traffic base.

The original line with spurs off to mines – shown as blue squares.

There have been a number of attempts to build a railway into Skelmersdale in the past.

It was not unusual for new towns to be built without rail connections even when the railway ran through the middle of the town. Close used to regarded as good enough - in Milton Keynes' case aspiring rail passengers were directed towards Wolverton or Bletchley - it took a major campaign by local business to get the station built - now the WCML's busiest after Euston.

The M58 was not intended as a "Vanity" Motorway but as a link to the M61 and M62. IIRC The builders utilised the existing Upholland by-pass as part of the route. Watcher can no doubt elaborate on what happened to the missing link.

There have been previous studies into building a station for Skelmersdale - one proposal was for a station at Ditton Brook which failed because the inability to terminate trains on the uphill gradient between Rainford and Upholland

There is no shortage of cycle ways in Skelmersdale. They suffer from the disadvantage of being carried under rather than over the roads with dark tunnels that sometimes fostered anti-social behaviour.

One of reasons why earlier schemes failed was that the New Town Corporation built over the best alignment from the south – the failed school that is now the proposed site of the new station.

 

[urbophile]

Kirkby and Skem are grim throughout. Not going to be a pleasant line for a Saturday afternoon ride, is that.

I lived for five years in Kirkby and eight in Skem. Both are superficially a bit grim, but the scouse spirit is still going strong in the former whereas Skelmersdale seems to have lost its oomph (not that it was given much chance of any in the first place). Part of the problem is its remoteness which this scheme might help to ameliorate.

 

[Philip]

As someone who has used the M58 for 25years, traffic has increased particularly for traffic to docks.

What I meant was that the M62 is the main route out of Liverpool for any points directly east or south-east. The M58 isn't the main route to the M6 unless you're heading north, so it'll never be choc-a like other motorways are in the area.

I know this is currently a scouse over-spill area, but why not try improving rail connections to other towns and cities in the region and see if it provides opportunities? I just think it's a bit of a waste of time if the station is going to be built just to provide rail connections to Liverpool. Skelmersdale to Liverpool in the car is an easy and quick journey as it is, so a rail service isn't going to be transform travel on this route. But it's much more awkward to get to Manchester in the car, so I think there should be a good deal of focus in creating a fast, frequent train service into Manchester, to compensate for the awkward car journey. There must be a fair percentage of the population of Skem who work in Manchester and Salford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with Camden: people overdo it when it comes to places like Kirkby & Skem. The thing with Skem is that the town centre, what little there is, is a fugly concrete affair in the form of the Concourse shopping centre. The rest of the town is pretty much entirely low density, car-dependent suburbia

Ugly houses with serious design flaws promoting crime (e.g. narrow alleyways with poor road access make it hard for Police to chase criminals)...it isn't the worst place in the world, but it is pig-ugly and not nice.

MK has bits like it too, to be fair, but the money has come in and "normal" looking houses have gone up in their masses.

 

[Gareth]

I just think it's a bit of a waste of time if the station is going to be built just to provide rail connections to Liverpool.

But it isn't going to just provide a link to Liverpool, so I don't see the issue.

 

[Philip]

But it isn't going to just provide a link to Liverpool, so I don't see the issue.

There was a vague mention of an hourly Manchester service in the report, which will probably either be an Atherton or Bolton line stopping service, but the emphasis was on direct trains to Liverpool. I'm thinking along the lines of a half-hourly service to Manchester as well, with one of them being a fast service (ie. a 30 minute journey time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was a vague mention of an hourly Manchester service in the report, which will probably either be an Atherton or Bolton line stopping service, but the emphasis was on direct trains to Liverpool. I'm thinking along the lines of a half-hourly service to Manchester as well, with one of them being a fast service (ie. a 30 minute journey time).

I'm not clear why that would be justified.

If you wanted half-hourly anything, you could probably manage a shuttle to Wigan for connections with one unit?

 

[Gareth]

Ugly houses with serious design flaws promoting crime (e.g. narrow alleyways with poor road access make it hard for Police to chase criminals)...it isn't the worst place in the world, but it is pig-ugly and not nice.

MK has bits like it too, to be fair, but the money has come in and "normal" looking houses have gone up in their masses.

The town as a whole has serious design flaws but short of levelling the whole thing and starting again (or not) we have to make the best of a bad situation. Skem needs both a more dense inner core and more modern suburban housing that can attract people of a salary level that's at least a bit higher than the current median. Skem has space for both these things. A lot of the oldest housing stock is both ugly and pokey and could probably do with being renewed in the medium term.

 

[mr_jrt]

What will continue to be a problem is Skem's spread out nature. No one lives in the town centre and many will still need to drive or get the bus to the station. Parking facilities are definitely going to be an important aspect of the project.

The location of the proposed station will be a big plus in that it should be easier to serve with multiple bus services in the town centre, rather than on the periphery, which would require deviations. What may help is having additional stations on the outskirts, where parking could be more easily provided. What is therefore essential is protecting a corridor north for a future extension, if not all the way to Omskirk, then at least to the northern part of town, probably near the schools north of the A577.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The town as a whole has series design flaws but short of levelling the whole thing and starting again (or not) we have to make the best of a bad situation. Skem needs both a more dense inner core and more modern suburban housing that can attract people of a salary level that's at least a bit higher than the current median. Skem has space for both these things. A lot of the oldest housing stock is both ugly and pokey and could probably do with being renewed in the medium term.

Yes, agreed. It's the higher quality housing and good facilities that attract people with money to spend to live in MK, and attracting those people will improve things for everyone by making more facilities affordable.

 

[frodshamfella]

What I meant was that the M62 is the main route out of Liverpool for any points directly east or south-east. The M58 isn't the main route to the M6 unless you're heading north, so it'll never be choc-a like other motorways are in the area.

I know this is currently a scouse over-spill area, but why not try improving rail connections to other towns and cities in the region and see if it provides opportunities? I just think it's a bit of a waste of time if the station is going to be built just to provide rail connections to Liverpool. Skelmersdale to Liverpool in the car is an easy and quick journey as it is, so a rail service isn't going to be transform travel on this route. But it's much more awkward to get to Manchester in the car, so I think there should be a good deal of focus in creating a fast, frequent train service into Manchester, to compensate for the awkward car journey. There must be a fair percentage of the population of Skem who work in Manchester and Salford.

I'm sure the good people of skelmersdale would welcome any rail links, because it's just road at present. Actually the drive from there to Liverpool is not easy and quick at all. The M58 is far from the city centre and the onward roads are a nightmare. Most traffic from M57/ M58 Heads towards the docks and that road is clogged all the time.Therefore a decent rail service into Liverpool city must be a priority.

 

[WatcherZero]

The business case for Maghull North is actually based on attracting hundreds of Skelmerdale residents to park and ride from it.

 

[Camden]

What I meant was that the M62 is the main route out of Liverpool for any points directly east or south-east. The M58 isn't the main route to the M6 unless you're heading north, so it'll never be choc-a like other motorways are in the area.

I know this is currently a scouse over-spill area, but why not try improving rail connections to other towns and cities in the region and see if it provides opportunities? I just think it's a bit of a waste of time if the station is going to be built just to provide rail connections to Liverpool. Skelmersdale to Liverpool in the car is an easy and quick journey as it is, so a rail service isn't going to be transform travel on this route. But it's much more awkward to get to Manchester in the car, so I think there should be a good deal of focus in creating a fast, frequent train service into Manchester, to compensate for the awkward car journey. There must be a fair percentage of the population of Skem who work in Manchester and Salford.

See my post on the previous page about the different views between connecting a town to a system like Metrolink, versus a town on the outskirts of Liverpool to Merseyrail. I'd be interested to hear why the downbeat view.

The logic you use seems flawed. If you have a car then getting to Manchester isn't any more difficult than getting to Liverpool, it's just quite a bit further away. I would expect the number of people who work in Manchester to be fairly low, based on the data I have seen.

I disagree that it won't change travel habits. Culturally the town is that of the Liverpool inner city, which also included a much lower inclination to use cars. This has knock on effects. In 2003, 53% of all households in the town did not have a car. All six wards were in the 25% of English wards with the lowest level of car ownership.

I think if you want to express a view on this you really need to get to grips with the facts and reality on the ground. It comes across that you just don't think it should be connected to Liverpool, but instead to Manchester. That just doesn't make any sense.

 

[urbophile]

Culturally the town is that of the Liverpool inner city, which also included a much lower inclination to use cars.

Lower 'inclination' to use cars? Unable to afford them, more likely.

Kirkby was designed in the 1950s for a working-class population that was never expected to own cars. The result is that the narrow streets are crowded and there is nowhere to park, even though car ownership is not high.

Skelmersdale was designed in the 1960s for a similar demographic, but by then they were expected to be affluent car-owners. Hence miles of empty dual-carriageways and a sprawling town with no urban centre.

 

[Philip]

See my post on the previous page about the different views between connecting a town to a system like Metrolink, versus a town on the outskirts of Liverpool to Merseyrail. I'd be interested to hear why the downbeat view.

The logic you use seems flawed. If you have a car then getting to Manchester isn't any more difficult than getting to Liverpool, it's just quite a bit further away. I would expect the number of people who work in Manchester to be fairly low, based on the data I have seen.

I disagree that it won't change travel habits. Culturally the town is that of the Liverpool inner city, which also included a much lower inclination to use cars. This has knock on effects. In 2003, 53% of all households in the town did not have a car. All six wards were in the 25% of English wards with the lowest level of car ownership.

I think if you want to express a view on this you really need to get to grips with the facts and reality on the ground. It comes across that you just don't think it should be connected to Liverpool, but instead to Manchester. That just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not dismissing having a connection to Liverpool, you seem to be saying that's what I'm implying, I'm not. I just think they shouldn't simply focus on the Liverpool connection but also look at considerably improving rail connections to other towns and cities in the region and stop being so Liverpool-focused and that this would benefit the area and create more business and industry opportunities.

Take the nearby St Helens, Runcorn and Warrington as examples..these are both a similar distance out of Liverpool and yet the rail connections are so much broader. St Helens already has a fast service to Manchester and this will soon become a fast service to West Yorkshire. Same goes for Runcorn. These areas are thriving in comparison. I just feel that the railway has more to do with an area's development than you seem to think, it's not just down to town planning.

As for the point about it not being any harder driving into Manchester than Liverpool...it's hard enough driving into Manchester from Salford, let alone from points further west. Rail connections into Manchester from normal commuting distance (within 40 miles) are crucial because of how congested the roads are in Manchester.

 

[Dr_Paul]

It was not unusual for new towns to be built without rail connections even when the railway ran through the middle of the town. Close used to regarded as good enough...

A branch of my family moved to Basildon in the early 1960s when it was a sparkling new New Town, and their house backed on to the railway. When I asked my uncle why there was no station in the town, he told me that the local authorities didn't want a station there as they didn't want Basildon to become a dormitory town for London. There was a station in Laindon a mile to the west, and one in Pitsea a couple of miles to the east.

Another classic case of a New Town losing its railway was Haverhill.

 

[Gareth]

Take the nearby St Helens, Runcorn and Warrington as examples..these are both a similar distance out of Liverpool and yet the rail connections are so much broader. St Helens already has a fast service to Manchester and this will soon become a fast service to West Yorkshire. Same goes for Runcorn. These areas are thriving in comparison. I just feel that the railway has more to do with an area's development than you seem to think, it's not just down to town planning.

But town planning has a lot to do with it, especially where Skelmersdale is concerned. Rail services can help and they'll benefit Skem a lot but it's no silver bullet. If it was then Crewe would be one of the most vibrant places in the North.

Skem is getting 2tph to Liverpool via Merseyrail and 1tph to Wigan, which will probably be extended to Manchester. That's not half bad for a town the size of Skem which is used to having no rail services at all. At Wigan, there'll be interchange options for WCML services and at Manchester for changes eastwards. Merseyrail will give convenient access to Liverpool and much of its metropolitan area, of which Skelmersdale is very much a part. Sure, it'd be nice if it was 2tph and that is a long term aspiration; but then again, 4tph to Liverpool is also a long term aspiration. And as much as I don't want to be cynical, it does seem you have a bee in your bonnet about the higher frequency to Liverpool than Manchester from a small town which is much closer to the former than the latter. Perhaps the likes of Bolton, Buy and Rochdale, all much larger towns than Skelmersdale, need direct links to Liverpool on a frequency that is at least on parity with Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A branch of my family moved to Basildon in the early 1960s when it was a sparkling new New Town, and their house backed on to the railway. When I asked my uncle why there was no station in the town, he told me that the local authorities didn't want a station there as they didn't want Basildon to become a dormitory town for London. There was a station in Laindon a mile to the west, and one in Pitsea a couple of miles to the east.

British Rail did open Basildon station in 1974.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps the likes of Bolton, Bury and Rochdale, all much larger towns than Skelmersdale, need direct links to Liverpool on a frequency that is at least on parity with Manchester.

I have travelled in my far more youthful days on such a rail service from Liverpool to Rochdale, via Bolton and Bury Knowsley Street stations.

 

[Gareth]

Nice one, Paul.

Let's make it happen again!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nice one, Paul.

Let's make it happen again!

What's the obsession with direct everything? Quality connections on pure-clockface regular interval services are in my view preferable - more consistency, more understandability and more options of where to travel.

That's the whole basis of the Germanic concept of a Taktfahrplan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

4tph to Liverpool is also a long term aspiration

I'd suggest it needs to be done now or not at all - 2tph will be able to be done using a single-line spur[1], while 4tph would require double track. It'll be way cheaper to build that now than add it later.

[1] Well, two single lines, but unconnected. So actually the addition required is mainly signalling and a crossover.

 

[Camden]

It's actually the Liverpool and Bury Railway being spoken about here and above. These days it's cut up into chunks and only as far as Kirkby still has access to Liverpool.

In many ways, this and any subsequent extension to Wigan is just putting right some of what shouldn't have been done in the first place.

Looking to the northern Lancashire towns like Rochdale, etc, severing their direct links to Liverpool doesn't appear to have worked out that well for them.

 

[Gareth]

What's the obsession with direct everything? Quality connections on pure-clockface regular interval services are in my view preferable - more consistency, more understandability and more options of where to travel.

That's the whole basis of the Germanic concept of a Taktfahrplan.

It was tongue-in-cheek, Neil. I agree. I've made similar arguments many a time, mainly with regards to the 'every town in the land needs a direct service to London' argument and its little brother: 'every small halt in the north of England needs a direct service to Manchester Airport'.

I find I tend to be in the minority in these arguments though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was tongue-in-cheek, Neil. I agree. I've made similar arguments many a time, mainly with regards to the 'every town in the land needs a direct service to London' argument and its little brother: 'every small halt in the north of England needs a direct service to Manchester Airport'.

Fair enough Merseyrail itself demonstrates the benefits of consistent timetabling[1] and good connections, FWIW.

[1] Not as consistent as it was; the Southport line does have some off-pattern services that have crept in over the years, which is disappointing. Ormskirk and Kirkby seem to remain 100% pure clockface throughout - if you show up at the "Sunday" times you'll have a train at any time during the service period. That has massive value. As soon as you have one single service that's off pattern unless it's a peak extra in addition to the pattern, you lose the value totally. "Starts 6am finishes 11pm at time X and time Y" is easy for any casual user to remember.

 

[HowardGWR]

It was tongue-in-cheek, Neil. I agree. I've made similar arguments many a time, mainly with regards to the 'every town in the land needs a direct service to London' argument and its little brother: 'every small halt in the north of England needs a direct service to Manchester Airport'.

I find I tend to be in the minority in these arguments though.

That's the problem though with access to air travel. Rochdale to Liverpool is localised inter-urban transport. Rochdale to Manchester Airport is still localised, but this time, you've got cases to lug, so a through service competes well with ride and park for a fortnight (less expensive too). The same thus will go for 'Skem' originating journeys. Those northern towns for which no through service to the airport exists, or at least a same-platform change, are possibly going to struggle to attract airport-destined pax., who are car owners.

Still, at the mo, there's nothing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the problem though with access to air travel. Rochdale to Liverpool is localised inter-urban transport. Rochdale to Manchester Airport is still localised, but this time, you've got cases to lug, so a through service competes well with ride and park for a fortnight (less expensive too). The same thus will go for 'Skem' originating journeys. Those northern towns for which no through service to the airport exists, or at least a same-platform change, are possibly going to struggle to attract airport-destined pax., who are car owners.

The fact that low-cost airlines tend to fly at times when the rail network (and buses typically) don't provide service is the real killer on that one. A relatively low-cost taxi to Liverpool Airport will be most use for the holiday flights most likely to be taken by those who live in Skem (local employment is not by and large the kind of employment that will need an awful lot of long-haul business travel, for instance).

 

[PR1Berske]

What's the obsession with direct everything? Quality connections on pure-clockface regular interval services are in my view preferable - more consistency, more understandability and more options of where to travel.

That's the whole basis of the Germanic concept of a Taktfahrplan.

I know from working for many, many years in offices that when ordinary everyday folk hear "you need to change at..." or "no direct trains to..." talk of future travel plans invariably move to booking minibuses or taxis. Direct services are much more of a convenience, more generally. Never underestimate how the occasional traveller sees the railway from "outside", where often "direct equals good, changing equals hassle"

 

[Gareth]

It doesn't make it correct though or justify a less efficient use of the railway. It's simply not practical to give everywhere a direct connection to everywhere else.

I also think the aversion to changing is overplayed and is probably a generational thing so far as it's a thing at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know from working for many, many years in offices that when ordinary everyday folk hear "you need to change at..." or "no direct trains to..." talk of future travel plans invariably move to booking minibuses or taxis. Direct services are much more of a convenience, more generally. Never underestimate how the occasional traveller sees the railway from "outside", where often "direct equals good, changing equals hassle"

Part of that is because connections in the UK are by and large terribly managed, with people running across New St, or connections not being held and no information on alternatives etc.

As an example, well over 50 commuters a day (possibly more, I've never actually counted) take the 1816 LM from Euston and change at Leighton Buzzard to reach Bletchley. This is quicker than the direct service (indeed it catches a service that left Euston 10 minutes earlier, or the Southern if that is running). It is same-platform and very reliable - to let the slow out in front of the 1816 at Ledburn would cause serious delay, so it is held there even if the 1816 is delayed a few minutes.

If we would just consider the rail service as a system and properly manage connections, people would be less disinclined to use them. Indeed, with reducing on-board catering and seat comfort, I actually like breaking up a long journey a bit for a walk around.