Pregnant commuter forced to sit on the carriage floor

[Deerfold]

An obligation to give up a seat is not very onerous. It should not be necessary to codify it, but sadly it has become necessary, a sign of the times.

That rather depends on who you are. As you'd probably agree it would be onerous for a pregnant woman. There are other people who have conditions which make it similarly onerous (which you seem to be ignoring).

 

[Greenback]

Let us forget the right to privacy in order to ensure that a tiny minority of people can be charged for failing to give up a seat. I am unclear why anyone should be required to answer that question over a seat on a train.

Quite right, there would have to be further legislation to force people to answer!

Perhaps instead we could focus on major issues rather than this insignificant one?

I couldn't agree more. The well intentioned desire of Holly to force people by law to give up their seats is fraught with difficulties and will cause more problems than it solves.

 

[Wolfie]

That rather depends on who you are. As you'd probably agree it would be onerous for a pregnant woman. There are other people who have conditions which make it similarly onerous (which you seem to be ignoring).

Indeed. I suspect Holly's proposal would be contrary to the clauses of the Equality Act which reflect the former DDA. Talk about a sledge-hammer to crack a nut!

 

[meridian2]

I genuinely don't understand what your point is.

If you have a reserved seat and someone is sitting in it, you should ask them to move.

If you're a disabled passenger who knows that they need a seat, then you should ensure that you have reserved a seat. If you haven't reserved a seat then that is your problem. It is not reasonable to expect other people- people who were organised enough to reserve a seat in advance- to stand to make room for you. Had you reserved a seat you would have a seat; your failure to do so is why you don't have one.

If a train does not offer reservations then none of this applies.

It IS reasonable to expect people to move if the carriage is full and standing, how long must we go round in circles please? The point is the reason a lot of these full-and-standing carriages are so are because people do not have time to be organised. We're not all as efficient as you, but that's no excuse for you to be inflexible. You are organised to reserve a seat; you should also be reasonable when the demand for seats is plain for all to see in the form of crushed commuters.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. I suspect Holly's proposal would be contrary to the clauses of the Equality Act which reflect the former DDA. Talk about a sledge-hammer to crack a nut!

I agree. In the unlikely event that any such legislation was considered, it could not be limited to pregnancy. It would have to cover other conditions.

As I say, it would create more issues than it would solve.

 

[chris89]

(sniped various parts) If a passenger says to you "I am not going to give up my seat and it is none of your business whether or not I am disabled" then, as things stand that is an end of the matter.

If it were in the CoC then you could respond "People who are able-bodied are required by law, on request, to give up their seats to visibly pregnant women. Are you disabled?".

The passenger who replies with that, would be mostly correct in my eyes. As it isn't any of your business, if someone has a disability or not. As not all are easily visual.

An obligation to give up a seat is not very onerous. It should not be necessary to codify it, but sadly it has become necessary, a sign of the times.

Some people may very unwilling to give up there seats, due to negative experiences with other people, when they have offered.

Let us forget the right to privacy in order to ensure that a tiny minority of people can be charged for failing to give up a seat. I am unclear why anyone should be required to answer that question over a seat on a train.

Perhaps instead we could focus on major issues rather than this insignificant one?

I have to agree with that.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

For what it's worth my pig ignorance comment came from the three years I spent working in Kings Cross and living in various bits of Greater London. Couldn't quite believe what northerners said about how ignorant and miserable London commuters were until I became one.

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk 2

 

[Geezertronic]

The passenger who replies with that, would be mostly correct in my eyes. As it isn't any of your business, if someone has a disability or not. As not all are easily visual.

And the bit I have bolded is exactly the point. Not everyone has a visual disability so how would a fellow commuter, Train Manager or other rail staff determine who has the bigger need. I have heard some quite preposterous views on disability (not on this thread I hasten to add) with one distorted view being that a person is only disabled if their disability is visible. That is quite ridiculous tbh but the proposal from Holly doesn't take into consideration that someone with a less obvious disability could be discriminated against, and also that someone who is fully able-bodied could act as if they had a disability knowing full well that they are less likely to be pulled over it. Anyone could say something like:

"Are you disabled?"
"Yes"
"What is the nature of your disability?"
"Arthritis that causes me terrible pain if I stand for too long"

How could a fellow commuter or member of staff argue against that?

 

[overtonchris]

Sooooo Right Geezertronic.

You've inadvertently nailed my condition in one concise post. I don't look like I'm ill and have only grizzled about it on this forum today....but something like arthritis is utterly agonising -can come on at short notice and doesn't "show"........but won't be given the press space / forum interest that a Pregnant Lady will attract.

Look at the Freaking Interest that this post has caused!!!! If on the many train trips that I have had to stand in pain and tried to whine to the press, I would have been rightly / wrongly ignored -or advised to"just get with it". Grrrrrrr.

AND don't any of you PC merchants out there accuse me of being sexist. I AM NOT. I rather like women!

 

[asylumxl]

And the bit I have bolded is exactly the point. Not everyone has a visual disability

Ironically I have a visual disability, which isn't immediately visible. Although I cope quite well anyway.

 

[westv]

For what it's worth my pig ignorance comment came from the three years I spent working in Kings Cross and living in various bits of Greater London. Couldn't quite believe what northerners said about how ignorant and miserable London commuters were until I became one.

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk 2

How does London compare to Manchester, Leeds or Liverpool?

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps on notoriously busy routes, or during peak times, they could introduce another fare level, e.g. 50p cheaper than the standard fare, but with the proviso that you only occupy a seat if there are no standing passengers with full price tickets. Totally unworkable no doubt, but maybe something to think about.

Going back to the original matter, are TMs not allowed to upgrade a passenger to First for a fee? That would have solved the problem, as she could have paid her £10 or whatever, and sat where she wanted to sit.

Finally, those Baby on Board badges... wonder what the going rate is on eBay .

 

[RochdalePioneers]

How does London compare to Manchester, Leeds or Liverpool?

Like London is a different country with different customs and social norms. I grew up in the northwest and had a spell commuting into Manchester. I lived in Sheffield for 4 years, Sunderland, Teesside. Haven't seen anywhere else apart from London where blanking everyone else so that you could pretend you were somewhere else was normal.

I have family in Essex so it's not a north/south thing I just think that London dehumanises people to the point where they no longer care. I'm in london frequently on business and the place makes me laugh as to why anyone would work there voluntarily. It was crowded a decade ago, now it's simply stupid.

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[Deerfold]

Perhaps on notoriously busy routes, or during peak times, they could introduce another fare level, e.g. 50p cheaper than the standard fare, but with the proviso that you only occupy a seat if there are no standing passengers with full price tickets. Totally unworkable no doubt, but maybe something to think about.

I've got a discounted ticket which does not allow me to sit if there are standees.

I'm sure a few people on this forum have.

Fortunately there are rarely standees on my usual route (and whilst happy to vacate my seat if needed I'm not going to stand whilst there are other vacant seats).

Going back to the original matter, are TMs not allowed to upgrade a passenger to First for a fee? That would have solved the problem, as she could have paid her £10 or whatever, and sat where she wanted to sit.

It doesn't sound like she wants to pay a fee - or even that the TM was aware of the incident at the time.

Like London is a different country with different customs and social norms. I grew up in the northwest and had a spell commuting into Manchester. I lived in Sheffield for 4 years, Sunderland, Teesside. Haven't seen anywhere else apart from London where blanking everyone else so that you could pretend you were somewhere else was normal.

I have family in Essex so it's not a north/south thing I just think that London dehumanises people to the point where they no longer care. I'm in london frequently on business and the place makes me laugh as to why anyone would work there voluntarily. It was crowded a decade ago, now it's simply stupid.

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I've had experience several times in Leeds of passengers refusing to move down an empty corridor whilst people were still trying to board a train. I was politely asking people to move down (I was already on the train) on one occasion and was reprimanded for it "This train is busy, you know". I replied "I realise that, but I'm sure those people would prefer to be on a busy train than left on the platform". Most passengers were studiously looking anywhere but at the stream of people trying to board the train.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Last time I checked being pregnant wasn't a disability.
Last time I checked being pregnant was a decision made by the individual.
Last time I checked if I wasn't up to travelling I didn't.

I have of course in past carried bags up stairs, given up seats etc.

However the above has to be acknowledged.

 

[LBSCR Times]

If you want a seat on a train from Surbiton to Waterloo, you get on one of the services from Hampton Court........

 

[Oswyntail]

Last time I checked being pregnant wasn't a disability.

It can be, if there are complications

Last time I checked being pregnant was a decision made by the individual.

Sometimes not - but that is irrelevant anyway.

Last time I checked if I wasn't up to travelling I didn't.

And if you, say, started to feel faint while travelling?

But this only goes to confirm what this thread has already said a thousand times - each passenger is an individual, we cannot tell how or whatthey are feelineg, and if we were more considerate the world would be a happier place

 

[dannypye9999]

Sometimes they should thoroughly check the train for a seat and they may very well find one. Very often everybody crams the first two carriages leaving the other carriages half filled so why should anybody give up their seat (reserved not reserved) when there are less busier carriages that might have seats available, that's if they could be bothered to use their eyes and look.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It can be, if there are complications

And if you, say, started to feel faint while travelling?

it's no different than people with other medical issues yet you don't hear all these people going around complaining or telling the world they should cater to them.

 

[RichmondCommu]

For what it's worth my pig ignorance comment came from the three years I spent working in Kings Cross and living in various bits of Greater London. Couldn't quite believe what northerners said about how ignorant and miserable London commuters were until I became one.

Why in your own words did you think that the Londoners that you met were ignorant and miserable? Are you suggesting that everyone living in Rochdale is permanently cheerful? That’s not my experience of that area of the North West.

 

[hassaanhc]

Sometimes they should thoroughly check the train for a seat and they may very well find one. Very often everybody crams the first two carriages leaving the other carriages half filled so why should anybody give up their seat (reserved not reserved) when there are less busier carriages that might have seats available, that's if they could be bothered to use their eyes and look.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see that a fair amount on evening peak departures from Waterloo, the rear coaches are closest to the barriers and they end up with all seats taken and vestibules full, while the coaches further away the vestibules are empty and probably the odd seat here and there.. Even if some of the people standing in the vestibules towards the rear of the unit moved forwards then you could get more people on. Although at Clapham Junction the front coaches end up being nearest to the overbridge so it becomes their turn to be full :/ (but the trains empty out significantly at Putney, well the Hounslow Loop and Weybridge via Hounslow ones anyway). Likewise on the eastbound Piccadilly Line at Hounslow Central for most of the day, the rear cars end up being closest to the stairs at almost all of the stations passed (especially Heathrow) so they end up with all seats taken and people standing, while the front 2 cars only have a few seats taken in them.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've had experience several times in Leeds of passengers refusing to move down an empty corridor whilst people were still trying to board a train. I was politely asking people to move down (I was already on the train) on one occasion and was reprimanded for it "This train is busy, you know". I replied "I realise that, but I'm sure those people would prefer to be on a busy train than left on the platform". Most passengers were studiously looking anywhere but at the stream of people trying to board the train.

And to be fair, as someone who commuted through Leeds for many years it's true that it can be quite a rude place. This is especially true of the evening rush hour when it's quite amazing how ignorant & even nasty people can get. I used to dread making for the 17:19 Leeds-Doncaster service, and these days if I'm coming from Leeds in the evening rush I will tend to time my journey back home via either on the Airedale or Wharfedale so that I use a service that arrives on platform with at least close to ten minutes or more of standing time. This means you can usually position yourself on a fairly empty carriage before it fills, and also be able to get a spot that requires the least amount of effort to disembark at your destination station. It's almost like a military strategy, with minute detail to planning required. I can often be observed enjoying a nice pint at Leeds whilst staring at RTT on my mobile, calculating the exact moment to make my move! But saying all this, when I have to commute through central London it feels like a relief getting back into somewhere like Leeds....

As for the original story, it's shocking but not unsurprising that this sort of thing happened. Surely someone could have given up their seat for what 20, 30 minutes, especially when it was clear she wasn't 100% well? Of course, on the flip side there's really no need to run to the press on this matter. Perhaps she could ask her employer to tweak her hours to avoid the worst of the rush hour, or maybe they might fund an upgrade to her ticket to allow her to take advantage of the potential use of 1st class? But it's certainly not the fault of the ToC, beyond the usual arguments about service capacities, and that applies to everyone.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It can be, if there are complications
Sometimes not - but that is irrelevant anyway.
And if you, say, started to feel faint while travelling?

But this only goes to confirm what this thread has already said a thousand times - each passenger is an individual, we cannot tell how or whatthey are feelineg, and if we were more considerate the world would be a happier place

Clutching at straws, what percentage of pregnancies are classed as a disability then? How many of those then travel peak on very busy services and how many Dr's in the light of the disability would recommend such action?

 

[Tibbs]

And to be fair, as someone who commuted through Leeds for many years it's true that it can be quite a rude place. This is especially true of the evening rush hour when it's quite amazing how ignorant & even nasty people can get.

In the north, no-one's rude, they're all 'bluff'...

 

[richw]

It is really shameful that it has come to this, it certainly did not need to be necessary, but -
please would some knowledgeable male start a petition that it be added to the terms of carriage (or whatever it is called nowadays) that able-bodied passengers must, on request, give up their seats to women four or more months pregnant?

And have the guards instructed to remove from the train any passenger who refuses to comply upon a first request to do so.

I assume you are being facetious, or perhaps have never seen a woman in the later stages?

It is a simple matter of fact whether a woman is or is not four months pregnant and whether a seated passenger is or is not able-bodied.

There are no judgments or opinions involved. If a woman falsely claims to be pregnant or a passenger declines to yield claiming not to be able-bodied but actually is able-bodied then they should face a fine.
The point of CoC (or whatever) is to spell out to people what is expected of them. It is really unfortunate that it has come to this but it has and changing the CoC is the right thing to do. Since moral behaviour towards pregnant women seems to be history in this modern uncaring society.

And of course 99% of the time people will behave decently and it won't be a problem. The person most able to manage without a seat will be the one to volunteer give it up if they are half decent. And you, northern156 or whoever you are, can be small and not volunteer. And have a nice day as the Americans would say.

Please someone do it, it is the right and decent thing to do. Pregnant women are special people with special needs (and I'm far too old ever to be pregnant again).

The only connection with the published case (we don't know the facts) is that apparently some people need to be told how to behave with common courtesy towards pregnant women. Or pregnant people if you want to be anorak about it.

I feel the need to comment on these posts, my wife did not show a bump on either of our daughters until around 36 weeks pregnant. This caused great concern to the midwife and she was sent to numerous growth scans. You would not have known she was in the later stages of pregnancy by looking at her. I'm 99% certain this was not a one (two) off case for my wife not showing a bump and other woman experience the same

 

[Tetchytyke]

Last time I checked being pregnant wasn't a disability.
Last time I checked being pregnant was a decision made by the individual.
Last time I checked if I wasn't up to travelling I didn't.

1. Depends. My ex partner had SPD, which is a condition caused by pregnancy where your hip joint pulls apart. She simply couldn't stand for long periods.

2. Is it? Not always. Not everyone who is pregnant a) chose to become pregnant or b) chose to have sex.

3. I'm sure your boss agreed.

And to be fair, as someone who commuted through Leeds for many years it's true that it can be quite a rude place. This is especially true of the evening rush hour when it's quite amazing how ignorant & even nasty people can get.

Leeds is the only place I've ever been called a c*** for asking someone to stand on the right hand side of the escalator so I could get past.

The point is the reason a lot of these full-and-standing carriages are so are because people do not have time to be organised. We're not all as efficient as you, but that's no excuse for you to be inflexible.

Inflexible? Not really. I'm just not going to all the trouble of booking a seat to stand for hours.

The only long-distance trains I've seen "crush loaded" recently are the 1819 and 1830 EastCoast trains out of Kings Cross on the Friday before a bank holiday. Get on those without a reservation and you'll be standing. That's your choice, not mine.

 

[ECML180]

Leeds is the only place I've ever been called a c*** for asking someone to stand on the right hand side of the escalator so I could get past.

In my experience of most places, Leeds included it's normal to stand on an escalator. It's only London I've seen with the bizarre system of people standing on one side and people rushing past on the other.

If there's no sign or obvious reason for people to stand on the right hand side it wouldn't surprise me if you got that response. If there was a sign I would say it's the exception and many people wouldn't be aware of it.

 

[reb0118]

Remember its YOUR choice to become pregnant not the passengers.

Unless you conceived in a train toilet with a random passenger after the Christmas night out?

I'll get my coat.................

 

[Deerfold]

In my experience of most places, Leeds included it's normal to stand on an escalator. It's only London I've seen with the bizarre system of people standing on one side and people rushing past on the other.

If there's no sign or obvious reason for people to stand on the right hand side it wouldn't surprise me if you got that response. If there was a sign I would say it's the exception and many people wouldn't be aware of it.

There are signs on every escalator in Leeds station asking people to stand on the right. They're generally ignored.

Not sure why you think the system is bizarre - it increase the throughput of people significantly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If there was a sign I would say it's the exception and many people wouldn't be aware of it.

There are plenty of signs on all the escalators asking people to stand on the right.

Obviously literacy in Leeds is a problem.

 

[ECML180]

There are signs on every escalator in Leeds station asking people to stand on the right. They're generally ignored.

Not sure why you think the system is bizarre - it increase the throughput of people significantly.

The few times I've seen that sort of system in use it causes either a pinchpoint at the entry point of the escalator with people waiting for a space to stand-or joining the left hand side and walking meaning they get some short tempered person sprinting up behind them.

The other thing that I don't like about this system is that in a number of cases it seems that the escalators aren't quite wide enough for people to pass comfortably, with arms/shoulders brushing, which makes it easy for pickpockets 'work' the escalator.