Produced an expired Railcard

[Moonchild1]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster... Actually posting this on behalf of a friend (really - it's not me).

I'm wary that we're close to the time she needs to respond - was quite a traumatising experience as she was travelling to see her terminally ill father for the last time (now passed) and hadn't realised her railcard had expired.

A few details which may or may not be relevant:

Was travelling London - St Annes (Blackpool) and had purchased a one way using a 16-25 railcard (Euston-Preston-St Annes).
The railcard had expired already (it was 4 months before).
Euston and Preston stations both saw and let her through with a promise she would purchase that day.
Was stopped by a inspector just before St Annes and told to purchase an full fare ticket (£100 - original ticket price was £15). She was upset but agreed to pay - but as per her age group only had Apple Pay which the card machine would not accept due to payment being over £100. She offered to pay in 2 x installments immediately but this was refused. She offered to transfer the money, this was also refused.
Was told 'refusal to pay was a crime' and she would be fined for not paying. She was by this point due to the circumstances so distraught that another passenger intervened due to the rudeness of the staff member. The staff member told her "no point giving false details, crying won't help" took details and letter has JUST been received.
Needless to say this is the first instance she has ever travelled on an expired railcard. Under my advice she brought a renewed railcard that same day (although I appreciate too late by then).
The letter is I think extremely threatening for what was a traumatic and unneccesary experience for someone who accepted her railcard was out of date and attempted to pay what was requested there and then.

Any advice on how to proceed?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Moonchild1. Welcome to the forum.

A question for the forum. What would the fare type have been for over £100 to have been demanded? Are we talking about an undiscounted £198.50 Anytime Single (if for a journey from London Terminals->St. Annes on Sea)? Also, not sure how the inappropriately discounted ticket, would have been priced at £15.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster... Actually posting this on behalf of a friend (really - it's not me).

I'm wary that we're close to the time she needs to respond - was quite a traumatising experience as she was travelling to see her terminally ill father for the last time (now passed) and hadn't realised her railcard had expired.

A few details which may or may not be relevant:

Was travelling London - St Annes (Blackpool) and had purchased a one way using a 16-25 railcard (Euston-Preston-St Annes).
The railcard had expired already (it was 4 months before).
Euston and Preston stations both saw and let her through with a promise she would purchase that day.
Was stopped by a inspector just before St Annes and told to purchase an full fare ticket (£100 - original ticket price was £15). She was upset but agreed to pay - but as per her age group only had Apple Pay which the card machine would not accept due to payment being over £100. She offered to pay in 2 x installments immediately but this was refused. She offered to transfer the money, this was also refused.
Was told 'refusal to pay was a crime' and she would be fined for not paying. She was by this point due to the circumstances so distraught that another passenger intervened due to the rudeness of the staff member. The staff member told her "no point giving false details, crying won't help" took details and letter has JUST been received.
Needless to say this is the first instance she has ever travelled on an expired railcard. Under my advice she brought a renewed railcard that same day (although I appreciate too late by then).
The letter is I think extremely threatening for what was a traumatic and unneccesary experience for someone who accepted her railcard was out of date and attempted to pay what was requested there and then.

Any advice on how to proceed?

View attachment 180464

This should sortable with a suitably worded reply usual formula recommended here plus obv some costs.

But what was the £100 asked for? Sound like a Penalty Fare so a Shame that option was not taken.

 

[Moonchild1]

I've got email replies set so I can ask and respond asap
She's checked thetrainline app - actually the ticket was:
Advance Single: £29.30 (£15 was my error) (was like a 5am train so very cheap)
She was asked to pay £97 (ish) as a new ticket - she was told it was the full price of the ticket (definitely not £198.50) - she was told it was the cost "of a new ticket"

 

[AlterEgo]

She was asked to pay £97 (ish) as a new ticket

Why was she unable to pay on Apple Pay then? It’s under £100, no need for authentication. There’s a bit that doesn’t add up about the story. Where on Preston station “saw the ticket”? There’s no gateline, not that one has to leave the station.

(Does Euston barrier the *0530* train? I’m never there that early!)

Also, has she checked her Trainline history? If there are other fares there since the expiry of the railcard, Northern could ask for these by way of settlement, if they audit her purchases.

 

[enyoueffsea]

It sounds like a terrible experience and set of circumstances for her, but ultimately, it is her error and she’ll need to accept that and face the consequences.

Sorry to be blunt or appear insensitive but Northern will not care about the circumstances leading to her travel, what staff had told her to do, the rudeness of the member of staff or her difficulties in making payment.

It’ll be a standard case of apology, accepting fault and requesting a settlement.

Also noting the post above, that settlement will likely include any other fares where she accidentally applied the railcard whilst expired.

 

[jamiearmley]

Also not wishing to sound insensitive, but she had over 2 hours on the train after she was instructed to renew, and agreed to renew, her Railcard, and did not do so.

She could have easily purchased a digital Railcard online during that time.

 

[WesternLancer]

Also not wishing to sound insensitive, but she had over 2 hours on the train after she was instructed to renew, and agreed to renew, her Railcard, and did not do so.

She could have easily purchased a digital Railcard online during that time.

Or even ticket office at Preston maybe before encountering that member of staff.

 

[Moonchild1]

Hi all (and thank you for taking the time)

Going to get answers to all of the above (and anymore below) and revert

Hi all (and thank you for taking the time)

Going to get answers to all of the above (and anymore below) and revert
She definitely was prepared and attempted to pay the amount requested.

 

[SuspectUsual]

There’s a bit that doesn’t add up about the story. Where on Preston station “saw the ticket”? There’s no gateline, not that one has to leave the station.

Northern quite often have a blockade / check on the bridge across to “their” platforms

 

[AlterEgo]

Northern quite often have a blockade / check on the bridge across to “their” platforms

Very unlikely they just let people with 4 month expired railcards through!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Northern quite often have a blockade / check on the bridge across to “their” platforms

Indeed. Most journeys from London Euston to St. Annes-on-Sea (on the Blackpool South line), would require a change from platform 3, over to the separate platform 1, at Preston station.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Very unlikely they just let people with 4 month expired railcards through!

It can get pretty busy as it’s a narrow bridge, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if a cursory glance at a ticket was deemed sufficient, let alone asking for the railcard

 

[Egg Centric]

Euston and Preston stations both saw and let her through with a promise she would purchase that day.

Can I make sure I'm understanding this correctly. Both Euston and Preston gatelines saw a 4 month old railcard, noticed it was 4 months old, and specifically said to your friend "that's ok. just promise us you'll buy a railcard at some point today"?

That is quite extraordinary.

 

[AlterEgo]

It can get pretty busy as it’s a narrow bridge, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if a cursory glance at a ticket was deemed sufficient, let alone asking for the railcard

They were specifically told by “Preston station” that it was fine, just buy one today. The same also apparently happened at Euston, on a service that departs so incredibly early I’m unsure it is even barriered.

 

[Egg Centric]

Sorry to be blunt or appear insensitive but Northern will not care about the circumstances leading to her travel

I'm actually not so sure about this if handled correctly. Seeing ones parent for the last time is something where ones head is going to be all over the place and reasonable people will understand that railcards are not going to be part of the agenda.

On the other hand credibility (both factual and emotional) is absolutely crucial for something like that. There are plenty of people who would either claim this when it wasn't the case or even worse see it as an opportunity to get away with a completely unrelated ticketing issue. So far this thread isn't really screaming credibility.

 

[SuspectUsual]

They were specifically told by “Preston station” that it was fine, just buy one today. The same also apparently happened at Euston, on a service that departs so incredibly early I’m unsure it is even barriered.

My point was that a check at Preston sounds perfectly plausible. But yes, the outcomes of two checks being what we’re told does seem highly improbable

 

[enyoueffsea]

I'm actually not so sure about this if handled correctly. Seeing ones parent for the last time is something where ones head is going to be all over the place and reasonable people will understand that railcards are not going to be part of the agenda.

On the other hand credibility (both factual and emotional) is absolutely crucial for something like that. There are plenty of people who would either claim this when it wasn't the case or even worse see it as an opportunity to get away with a completely unrelated ticketing issue. So far this thread isn't really screaming credibility.

I was referring to the outcome of the case. Northern will go with an out of court settlement (subject to an appropriate response being sent) if the reason for travel was these circumstances as well as if the reason was “just because”.

I’d be very surprised if Northern came back with NFA simply as a result of the OP explaining why they were travelling.

The people working these cases have heard every story possible, regardless of the truth in them. Their sole aim is to recoup lost revenue.

 

[Egg Centric]

I was referring to the outcome of the case. Northern will go with an out of court settlement (subject to an appropriate response being sent) if the reason for travel was these circumstances as well as if the reason was “just because”.

I’d be very surprised if Northern came back with NFA simply as a result of the OP explaining why they were travelling.

The people working these cases have heard every story possible, regardless of the truth in them. Their sole aim is to recoup lost revenue.

My view is a correctly handled case would probably go Pay Up - Customer Services - Escalation ( x ?) - Refund. They're human too at the end of the day.

But that would as I said rely on this genuinely being a last minute trip to a dying father and the person's mind being all over the place. The details of why gateline let them through seem crucial - if it was in reaction to self evident genuine distress it's one thing. If it's due to... well bluntly not being true... then quite another.

 

[enyoueffsea]

My view is a correctly handled case would probably go Pay Up - Customer Services - Escalation ( x ?) - Refund. They're human too at the end of the day.

But that would as I said rely on this genuinely being a last minute trip to a dying father and the person's mind being all over the place. The details of why gateline let them through seem crucial - if it was in reaction to self evident genuine distress it's one thing. If it's due to... well bluntly not being true... then quite another

Possibly. That would also rely on this being a one off and no other tickets purchased during the 4 month period of the card expiring.

 

[Egg Centric]

Possibly. That would also rely on this being a one off and no other tickets purchased during the 4 month period of the card expiring.

Agreed

 

[Snow1964]

They were specifically told by “Preston station” that it was fine, just buy one today. The same also apparently happened at Euston, on a service that departs so incredibly early I’m unsure it is even barriered.

Can you actually buy a railcard at ticket office for an 05:30 train. Possibly barrier staff knew couldn't buy it from TVM and their ticket office wasn't open that early, so waived it through because ticket office wasn't open (or perhaps should have been open, but was late opening that day).

I have never encountered ticket barrier staff that have said can't buy your ticket or railcard here currently, so please buy it online, otherwise not going through barriers. My hunch is the very early hour was reason for ok to buy it later today.

 

[John R]

Re the price asked, it was a Friday, so maybe the Off Peak ticket price was used, as Off Peak is valid all day. But that would have been 85.30, so not close to the price quoted either.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you actually buy a railcard at ticket office for an 05:30 train. Possibly barrier staff knew couldn't buy it from TVM and their ticket office wasn't open that early, so waived it through because ticket office wasn't open (or perhaps should have been open, but was late opening that day).

I have never encountered ticket barrier staff that have said can't buy your ticket or railcard here currently, so please buy it online, otherwise not going through barriers. My hunch is the very early hour was reason for ok to buy it later today.

You can buy online. I’m not saying it can’t happen but getting past any barrier with a long expired railcard *that the staff have noticed* is something which very rarely happens. They’d most likely sell a new ticket, excess, or otherwise deny travel.

It’s really important becuase the OP’s friend says this and it will be a defence to the offence, as permission - they say - was given to travel. It must be true and must be verifiable and the onus is on them to prove it if they want to introduce it as their defence.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

As noted above we really need some more information to be able to advise properly, including redacted copies of all the paperwork, emails etc.

My initial observations:

• I'd be surprised if both Euston and Preston staff said just renew the railcard. Personally I think it's more likely that the railcard wasn't checked
• If the opportunity was given to purchase a railcard then there really can't be a complaint if, on the final leg of the journey the lack of a railcard was questioned
• There isn't a £100 limit on Apple Pay. The £100 limit only applies to physical bankcards. Apple pay is different because biometrics are used to authenticateThere is a limit but it's something like £10,000.
• I'm wondering if the guard tried to sell an Off Peak Single (given it was a Friday when Off Peak tickets are valid all day on Avanti set fares) which costs £85.30 or £121.90 for a return
• Northern will probably settle if you co-operate, given the circumstances once settled it might be worth contacting customer services and ask if they will consider a one-off gesture

 

[John R]

I think a key point to make here is that several of the experts on this forum have now expressed surprise and doubt at several aspects of the story, both railway practice, and other aspects. There's even doubt as to what fare they were asked to pay.

If the same story is put as a response to the letter received, I would expect the investigator handling the case to be equally sceptical - and if so unfortunately that would not make them believe any of the comments and mitigation put in response. Which is unlikely to result in a positive result as far as the OP's friend is concerned.

 

[furlong]

Going to get answers to all of the above (and anymore below)

Please do. One key thing for us is precisely what happened in respect of the railcard at both Euston and Preston. Treating each separately, who said what and in what sequence.

Also was it an e-ticket with a scannable bar code or not?
Was the expired railcard digital or not?

 

[melevittfl]

There isn't a £100 limit on Apple Pay. The £100 limit only applies to physical bankcards.

That’s how it’s supposed to work. However, if the card machine is incorrectly configured it might not distinguish between physical cards and Apple Pay. Instead, treating them as the same as physical contactless transactions and limiting to £100.

 

[AlterEgo]

That’s how it’s supposed to work. However, if the card machine is incorrectly configured it might not distinguish between physical cards and Apple Pay. Instead, treating them as the same as physical contactless transactions and limiting to £100.

Regardless, if the amount asked for was less than this (£97 as said), it should have gone through.

 

[Snow1964]

You can buy online. I’m not saying it can’t happen but getting past any barrier with a long expired railcard *that the staff have noticed* is something which very rarely happens. They’d most likely sell a new ticket, excess, or otherwise deny travel.

The problem I see, is even if the entry barrier staff realised the railcard had expired, because it was before 05:30 in the morning they might not have been able to do a ticket sale.

Customer hasn't yet entered so can't be penaltied for travelling, they might be able to sell an excess, (would you like to buy a new ticket at about £97, or a £35 railcard to go with your already bought ticket). Dumb choice offered.

If gate staff can't sell railcard and ticket office is closed until 6am, not likely to be much denying of travel, especially if there was negligible staff on duty at that hour. I think a non-confrontational approach of please buy new railcard as soon as you can, is possibility that cannot be discounted.