Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[JonathanH]

London NorthWestern Railway have issued press release about 14 of their stations getting it, I assume Milton Keynes Central is not one of theirs.

Fourteen London Northwestern Railway stations to receive Pay As You Go upgrade

Fourteen stations operated by London Northwestern Railway (LNR) are to receive upgraded Pay As You Go technology as part of a major £20 million government...

www.mynewsdesk.com

This press release states that "Passengers using the technology will be able to use their bank card or smart device to tap-in on station readers in the knowledge they will automatically be guaranteed the best price available on the day of travelling".

We know that is absolutely not true if two fares structures are applying concurrently, particularly with railcards, time restrictions etc.

This quotation from Huw Merriman is somewhat ambitious. "By removing the stress of finding the best deal in advance or having the right ticket ready to go at the barriers, the extension of tap-in tap-out ticketing is the next step of our plan for rail reform and we’re working towards Pay As You Go being rolled out beyond the South East through the Midlands and up to the North."

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That has to be a contender for most incompetent ever rail map!

To add to all the other issues that people have pointed out, it gives the impression that you can get a train from London to Otford via Sevenoaks, but Sevenoaks to Swanley requires a change of train and doubling back at Otford.

EDIT: And where do the Shepperton trains carry on to once they arrive at Shepperton? Ditto Shoeburyness

 

[davews]

No mention of railcards and contactless. And how are 'best fares' worked out. OK, not yet available from Martins Heron, but if I catch my normal off peak train at 0905 and tap in at 0850 will it charge me peak or work it out from when I arrive at Waterloo after 10am? And if I turn up at Virginia Water, tap in on platform 2 (or platform 4) and head west out of the contactless area what happens then?

 

[island]

No mention of railcards and contactless. And how are 'best fares' worked out. OK, not yet available from Martins Heron, but if I catch my normal off peak train at 0905 and tap in at 0850 will it charge me peak or work it out from when I arrive at Waterloo after 10am?

Unclear so far, though I wouldn't be surprised if they made it a blanket "0930 for off-peak" rule.

And if I turn up at Virginia Water, tap in on platform 2 (or platform 4) and head west out of the contactless area what happens then?

You would be travelling ticketless, same as the current situation with people who travel outside the contactless area.

 

[swt_passenger]

[…]
And how are 'best fares' worked out. OK, not yet available from Martins Heron, but if I catch my normal off peak train at 0905 and tap in at 0850 will it charge me peak or work it out from when I arrive at Waterloo after 10am? And if I turn up at Virginia Water, tap in on platform 2 (or platform 4) and head west out of the contactless area what happens then?

Discussed from post #520 onwards last week?

 

[Edvid]

No mention of railcards and contactless. [...]

Contactless Railcard discounts - for individuals with national cards, at least - are planned to be introduced in the ~180-station Phase Two, which is still two years away by my reckoning. Today's announcement is about Phase One.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Contactless Railcard discounts - for individuals with national cards, at least - are planned to be introduced in the ~180-station Phase Two, which is still two years away by my reckoning. Today's announcement is about Phase One.

Have they released what stations they plan to expand to? I assume the picture in post #1 is tentative

 

[Haywain]

Phase Two, which is still two years away

With phase one running behind schedule, it's difficult to tell.

 

[Edvid]

Yeah, would be quite optimistic to see the delay (currently 12 months) as fixed for the rest of the project.

Have they released what stations they plan to expand to? I assume the picture in post #1 is tentative

The Phase Two limits are indeed still subject to change. (Post #532 has a Phase One map, if you're wondering.)

 

[Fazaar1889]

The Phase Two limits are indeed still subject to change.

Fair enough thanks. I just hope Guildford and Woking are included as I travel between those two towns more often than others.

 

[Sunil_P]

Touchy-outies in place at Otford when I visited today. "Not in use" stickers however (as expected).

 

[MikeWh]

Does anyone know what has happened to Reigate?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know what has happened to Reigate?

No sign of any Oyster readers, although Cubic were fiddling with the gates a few months ago.

Presumably if has been pulled for implementation in Phase 2. 'Minstral25' did say as much in message 514 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-18#post-6278363

Notably GTR don't have any further stations in Phase 1, which I guess means they feel they have done enough already with the existing Gatwick Airport / Luton Airport / Hertford North / Welwyn Garden City / Epsom coverage.

 

[MikeWh]

Notably GTR don't have any further stations in Phase 1, which I guess means they feel they have done enough already with the existing Gatwick Airport / Luton Airport / Hertford North / Welwyn Garden City / Epsom coverage.

Apart from Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball and Sevenoaks.

Presumably if has been pulled for implementation in Phase 2. 'Minstral25' did say as much in message 514 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-18#post-6278363

thanks for that - I'd missed the last sentence when skim reading earlier.

 

[JonathanH]

Apart from Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball and Sevenoaks.

OK, yes, although those are all technically Southeastern stations, even if only GTR serve Bat & Ball, Eynsford and Shoreham.

 

[miklcct]

You are not alone.

Locally we have asked, asked and asked again but they won't put Reigate in the Oyster zone. Really annoying as every other station with Reigate and Banstead is within the zone.

Also, we have heard there are unexplained infrastructure problems that mean Reigate may not be in first rollout now. (I can only guess this is Internet/WiFi/Power issues for the gates, although there are KeyGo & Contactless gates already in place).

Is it confirmed that the Oyster system is now definitely closed for any further expansions?

 

[MikeWh]

Is it confirmed that the Oyster system is now definitely closed for any further expansions?

Almost certainly. The only reason that Reigate might have been considered is because it is in the middle (by distance) of other stations using Oyster.

 

[Edvid]

Is it confirmed that the Oyster system is now definitely closed for any further expansions?

In addition, whoever wins the Proteus Contract (to be awarded in August 2024, in theory) will replace it with a namesake account-based system. Only then would expansion beyond the current limits be more likely, though it's anyone's guess whether it would match the full Project Oval region. More details on Proteus below:

Project Proteus: New features in TfL revenue collection tender

I found some of the new features mentioned in the latest TfL revenue collection tender interesting: During the life of the Proteus Contract, we anticipate that there will be a number of changes, the key planned changes expected to be delivered during the Proteus Contract term include: • Hina...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Minstral25]

Almost certainly. The only reason that Reigate might have been considered is because it is in the middle (by distance) of other stations using Oyster.

Started asking in 2013 (or at least I joined the campaign then), it was promised as part of the Gatwick extension (we had stakeholder briefing) then it disappeared from plan on announcement. We've been promised again since and now they won't expand Oyster.

Now Contactless promised in first wave, now Contactless to Reigate is withdrawn

Frustrating - don't think they like us!

 

[Sunil_P]

That has to be a contender for most incompetent ever rail map!

EDIT: And where do the Shepperton trains carry on to once they arrive at Shepperton?

Well, way back in the 1860s, the plan had been to build all the way to Chertsey Bridge, on the north bank of the Thames!

 

[JonathanH]

There is another story about Contactless automatically giving 'the best price' under Project Oval. Is there going to be a change to the overall fare structure to allow this to happen? I don't see how this can happen if the London-style single leg structure applies alongside the existing paper structure, particularly with the Evening Out / Sunday Out structure on SWR.

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/8-surrey-stations-go-contactless-27251356

8 Surrey stations to go contactless and automatically give cheapest price

It is part of £20 million in funding from the government which will see 53 stations benefit from the technology

By Christy O'Brien
10:42, 4 JUL 2023

Eight stations in Surrey are set to benefit from a fresh rollout of pay-as-you-go ticketing. A total of 53 train stations in the UK will get tap-in tap-out technology implemented by the end of the year as part of a £20 million scheme from the government.

Rather than buying tickets ahead of their trip to the station, passengers will instead be able to use their bank card or phone to tap on a reader to get through the barriers. This will automatically get you the best available price on your day of travel.

Already in place at more than 350 stations across London and the south-east and widely used on London’s underground, eight Surrey stations will benefit from the plan.

“One of the best ways to get more people using our railways is to make journeys as simple, flexible and convenient as possible and the Government’s programme for rail reform prioritises exactly that,” said Huw Merriman, the government’s rail minister.

“By removing the stress of finding the best deal in advance or having the right ticket ready to go at the barriers, the extension of tap-in tap-out ticketing is the next step of our plan for rail reform.”

The 8 Surrey stations that will go contactless

Ashford
Egham
Kempton Park
Shepperton
Staines
Sunbury
Upper Halliford
Virginia Water

 

[SWT_USER]

Will this mean the peak hours align with the current Oyster structure? So (for example) touch in at Ashford before 06:30 and pay an off peak fare?

 

[JonathanH]

Will this mean the peak hours align with the current Oyster structure? So (for example) touch in at Ashford before 06:30 and pay an off peak fare?

That is what has happened with previous extensions. The exact detail for these extensions hasn't been announced though.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Will this mean the peak hours align with the current Oyster structure? So (for example) touch in at Ashford before 06:30 and pay an off peak fare?

Ashford (Surrey)?
If the peak contactless fare is, say, 30% more, it would be cheaper to get to the station early to catch the 06:28, change at Feltham for an 07:09 arrival into Waterloo, than wait for the dearer 06:41 train which arrives at 07:22.
Although I suspect anyone travelling that early would likely be a commuter buying a season ticket?

 

[JonathanH]

If the peak contactless fare is, say, 30% more, it would be cheaper to get to the station early to catch the 06:28, change at Feltham for an 07:09 arrival into Waterloo, than wait for the dearer 06:41 train which arrives at 07:22.

...or just arrive at 06:29 for the 06:41. It is the time that a passenger touches the reader that is relevant, rather than when they board their train, and even then there is leeway for a few minutes after 06:30.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The interim fare from Reading to Virginia Water will be interesting, as one will be defined, even if only valid via Ealing Broadway (or Paddington).

Not a new situation, as contactless is already accepted at Feltham and Redhill, both of which have direct services to Reading that run outside the contactless zone. What route the system would assume you use is interesting to contemplate - probably not via Waterloo/Victoria as the system should notice you didn't use the necessary OSI - Feltham/Richmond/Turnham Green/Ealing Broadway/Reading can be done without using a reader, as can Redhill/Farringdon/Redhill

...or just arrive at 06:29 for the 06:41. It is the time that a passenger touches the reader that is relevant, rather than when they board their train, and even then there is leeway for a few minutes after 06:30.

Depends - at my local station, down trains leave at xx29 and up trains at xx34. The readers won't let my Over 60 pass through until exactly 0930 (regardless of whether the 0929 is on time)

 

[SWT_USER]

Ashford (Surrey)?
If the peak contactless fare is, say, 30% more, it would be cheaper to get to the station early to catch the 06:28, change at Feltham for an 07:09 arrival into Waterloo, than wait for the dearer 06:41 train which arrives at 07:22.
Although I suspect anyone travelling that early would likely be a commuter buying a season ticket?

Yes Ashford Surrey. This will be useful for the odd time I need to be in early - touching in before 06.30 (or 06.35?) for the 06.41 to get a cheaper fare.

There are no suitable season tickets for my commute - for some reason SWR don't make any available, I travel a maximum of two days a week, and to Wimbledon rather than Waterloo so probably wouldn't be worth it anyway.

I usually cycle to Hatton X where a return to Wimbledon on oyster is £5 (£3 peak, £2 off peak) rather than the extortionate £16.40 SWR charge from Ashford.

 

[MikeWh]

The readers won't let my Over 60 pass through until exactly 0930 (regardless of whether the 0929 is on time)

The 60+ Oyster is a different animal to PAYG on contactless though.

 

[Starmill]

There are no suitable season tickets for my commute - for some reason SWR don't make any available, I travel a maximum of two days a week, and to Wimbledon rather than Waterloo so probably wouldn't be worth it anyway.

Actually there is a season ticket, Ashford (Surrey) to London Zones 3-6 if you travel via Southfields or via Teddington, at £57.30 per week, or if you also wish to have a ticket for use on the route via Clapham Junction, £64.40 per week adding zone 2. Sadly it's so expensive it's absolutely not worth it if you just make two round trips per week at times when peak pay as you go touches would be recorded.

 

[SWT_USER]

Actually there is a season ticket, Ashford (Surrey) to London Zones 3-6 if you travel via Southfields or via Teddington, at £57.30 per week, or if you also wish to have a ticket for use on the route via Clapham Junction, £64.40 per week adding zone 2. Sadly it's so expensive it's absolutely not worth it if you just make two round trips per week at times when peak pay as you go touches would be recorded.

Thanks, yes I am aware of the travelcard. I just want a point to point Ashford to Wimbledon which doesn't exist for some reason.