Proposal for Furness line Electrifcation

[thenorthern]

A couple of weeks ago I saw the local MP for Westmorland and Lonsdale wanted to get the Furness Line electrified.

Personally I think that its a bit of a waste of time electrifying the Furness Line as there are two very long viaducts which would add to the cost and the line usage is too low to justify of the cost of electrification and there are other lines that are more in need for electrification.

Does anyone think it should be electrified or not?

 

[NotATrainspott]

A couple of weeks ago I saw the local MP for Westmorland and Lonsdale wanted to get the Furness Line electrified.

Personally I think that its a bit of a waste of time electrifying the Furness Line as there are two very long viaducts which would add to the cost and the line usage is too low to justify of the cost of electrification and there are other lines that are more in need for electrification.

Does anyone think it should be electrified or not?

It will be electrified, that much is now certain. Once you have electrified all the most intensive routes, the CBR of electrifying further increases dramatically and they're going to have to keep the electrification teams busy in between fixing what's already up.

When it will happen? Not until CP6 at the very earliest.

 

[RichmondCommu]

A couple of weeks ago I saw the local MP for Westmorland and Lonsdale wanted to get the Furness Line electrified.

Personally I think that its a bit of a waste of time electrifying the Furness Line as there are two very long viaducts which would add to the cost and the line usage is too low to justify of the cost of electrification and there are other lines that are more in need for electrification.

Does anyone think it should be electrified or not?

No more so than the S & C and it will be many years (at least a decade) before that gets done. The class 185's will be around for some time yet.

 

[thenorthern]

If the electrification was extended to Sellafield that could make some sense but to my knowledge none of the Nuclear power station branches are electrified.

 

[northofthesand]

A couple of weeks ago I saw the local MP for Westmorland and Lonsdale wanted to get the Furness Line electrified.

Personally I think that its a bit of a waste of time electrifying the Furness Line as there are two very long viaducts which would add to the cost and the line usage is too low to justify of the cost of electrification and there are other lines that are more in need for electrification.

Does anyone think it should be electrified or not?

I agree most days there is only two frieght services too (Crewe-Sellafield) and
the return leg,I think the S&C would be a better option if you had to pick
between the two

 

[Blindtraveler]

A couple of weeks ago I saw the local MP for Westmorland and Lonsdale wanted to get the Furness Line electrified.

Personally I think that its a bit of a waste of time electrifying the Furness Line as there are two very long viaducts which would add to the cost and the line usage is too low to justify of the cost of electrification and there are other lines that are more in need for electrification.

Does anyone think it should be electrified or not?

Not a big prioritty at the mo but will be a sensible move, along with the route via Kendle when Preston - Bolton - Chorley - Manchester is done otherwise theres going to be a lot of overweight fuel hungry 185s running for miles under the wires again just to be able to complete the Cumbrian ends of journeys. Wire up Blackpool at the same time and theres another Deezol Island wipped out.↲

 

[TheWalrus]

Agree with OP.

 

[Des Iroman]

Blackpool is already confirmed for wires, Windermere pretty much green lighted but as for the Barrow line, not sure it's justified for what is basically an hourly-service branch. Currently double-tracked and absolute block throughout, line speed doesn't exceed 60mph and the cost would likely exceed benefits. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route cut back to a shuttle from Barrow to Lancaster (maybe Preston) with only a couple of through trains elsewhere in the next franchise round. Engineering wise, Lindal Tunnel would likely prove an expensive nightmare for getting OLE in too.

 

[snowball]

Personally I think that its a bit of a waste of time electrifying the Furness Line as there are two very long viaducts which would add to the cost

Are viaducts particularly expensive to electrify?

 

[Leylandlad]

A couple of weeks ago I saw the local MP for Westmorland and Lonsdale wanted to get the Furness Line electrified.

Personally I think that its a bit of a waste of time electrifying the Furness Line as there are two very long viaducts which would add to the cost and the line usage is too low to justify of the cost of electrification and there are other lines that are more in need for electrification.

Does anyone think it should be electrified or not?

It does help when the MP actually uses the line, which I know Tim Farron does from Arnside to Lancaster. He was instrumental in getting the Windermere line electrification sorted.

Should it be electrified? Yes...but it's probably more on the wishlist than the racing certainty list IMHO.

28 miles double track from Carnforth to Barrow with the 2 big viaducts to wire as the OP says. What's the clearances like through Lindal/Dalton tunnels for the wires anyone know?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Blackpool is already confirmed for wires, Windermere pretty much green lighted but as for the Barrow line, not sure it's justified for what is basically an hourly-service branch. Currently double-tracked and absolute block throughout, line speed doesn't exceed 60mph and the cost would likely exceed benefits. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route cut back to a shuttle from Barrow to Lancaster (maybe Preston) with only a couple of through trains elsewhere in the next franchise round. Engineering wise, Lindal Tunnel would likely prove an expensive nightmare for getting OLE in too.

Crossed with my post

Likewise, would not be at all surprised if TPE pull out of the line and its handed over to Northern (or their equivalents) in the next franchise.

TBH doesn't make a lot of sense having 2 separate passenger operators on the line.

 

[joeykins82]

If the intent is to make TPE-NW a fully electric operation (which is my guess) then WCML to Barrow-in-Furness will need electrifying, along with the proposed Windermere branch electrification and the committed Blackpool North scheme.

 

[tbtc]

It's a long way down the list of priorities (a double tracked line that sees only one train an hour - you'd need to electrify the Carlisle - Barrow line too if you wanted to stop the "diesels under the wire" issue).

There are much busier lines in north west England that aren't going to be electrified in CP5.

I can see why the local MP wants the line to be wired, and its nice to have MPs who see electrification as a positive thing, but its really not a priority at the moment, sorry.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe not a priority, but I can see the logic.

Given that it seems to be more integrated service wise with the electrified WCML and soon to be electrified trans-pennine network. On the minus side, it's not a relatively short add-on as the Windermere branch would be, however, on the plus side, Barrow is the sort of industrial urban area that could tick the necessary regeneration boxes.

One issue that might worry me would be what would happen to the through Northern services that go around the Cumbrian Coast !

 

[David Barrett]

Maybe not a priority, but I can see the logic.

Given that it seems to be more integrated service wise with the electrified WCML and soon to be electrified trans-pennine network. On the minus side, it's not a relatively short add-on as the Windermere branch would be, however, on the plus side, Barrow is the sort of industrial urban area that could tick the necessary regeneration boxes.

One issue that might worry me would be what would happen to the through Northern services that go around the Cumbrian Coast !

Probably become an isolated diesel service. However as I have been arguing elsewhere the problem with Electrification is that unless any scheme takes into account and is based on established patterns of use and runs to what I would term presently accepted cut off points then large disbenifits and inconvenience will follow to those areas currently part of that pattern but excluded after Electrification.

 

[yorksrob]

Probably become an isolated diesel service. However as I have been arguing elsewhere the problem with Electrification is that unless any scheme takes into account and is based on established patterns of use and runs to what I would term presently accepted cut off points then large disbenifits and inconvenience will follow to those areas currently part of that pattern but excluded after Electrification.

That's a fair point. Much as a better service round the Coast would be personally useful for me, I suspect the through services to the North West urban areas are more important to Barrow.

 

[Dunc108]

The Furness line needs another train per hour (maybe a Barrow - Carnforth/Lancaster?) As much as i'd love to see it wired, its a big project to cater for whats essentially just an hourly service. Reinstating the bay platform at Carnforth could be useful, but given currrent frequency, they could do Barrow turnbacks in the main platforms...!

 

[yorksrob]

The Furness line needs another train per hour (maybe a Barrow - Carnforth/Lancaster?) As much as i'd love to see it wired, its a big project to cater for whats essentially just an hourly service. Reinstating the bay platform at Carnforth could be useful, but given currrent frequency, they could do Barrow turnbacks in the main platforms...!

Perhaps it needs one train an hour linking to the urban north west, with another as a coastal through train (although admittedly this wouldn't do much for the electrification case !).

I know from experience that it certainly needs a better Sunday service.

 

[Hardcastle]

Reopen Carnforth mainline platforms Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh would stop there maybe start/terminate Furness line trains at Preston/Lancaster/Carnforth improve the Furness line service frequency with extensions to West Cumbria as now. Introduce a evening & Sunday service between Barrow & Whitehaven all operated by Northern or who wins the franchise. Plus a direct Barrow-Skipton/Leeds service, I cant see how electrification is justified ATM plus the 2 viaducts would be very open to the elements.

 

[thenorthern]

I doubt they could get that far round the coast with electrification especially between Sellafield and Whitehaven which I think would be the biggest problem and line usage is too low to make it work at all.

The Windermere Branch seems a relatively good idea although most trains on the line only run to Oxenholme Lake District at the moment.

If I could choose any line to be electrified I would have to choose Birmingham New Street to Bristol, it should have been done a long time ago.

 

[lancastrian]

Not a big prioritty at the mo but will be a sensible move, along with the route via Kendle when Preston - Bolton - Chorley - Manchester is done otherwise theres going to be a lot of overweight fuel hungry 185s running for miles under the wires again just to be able to complete the Cumbrian ends of journeys. Wire up Blackpool at the same time and theres another Deezol Island wipped out.↲

Do you mean the Kirkham to Blackpool South Line? If so as the service along it starts at Clone, you would either have to split the service into two, or my personal choice to electrify the East lancashire Line, plus redouble from Gannow Junction to Colne, then reopen from Colne to Skipton, all electric of course and this will give another trans-pennine electrified route.

But one day with the oil and diesel costs constantly rising, then all the railway will need to be electrified, simples!

 

[Leylandlad]

Do you mean the Kirkham to Blackpool South Line? If so as the service along it starts at Clone, you would either have to split the service into two, or my personal choice to electrify the East lancashire Line, plus redouble from Gannow Junction to Colne, then reopen from Colne to Skipton, all electric of course and this will give another trans-pennine electrified route.

But one day with the oil and diesel costs constantly rising, then all the railway will need to be electrified, simples!

It might happen if it was in Scotland :roll:

Reopening Colne-Skipton, whilst highly desirable, is IMHO as much on the wishlist as Barrow electrification....and not the priority list.

We can but hope though!!

 

[66C]

Not much chance of stopping mainline trains at Carnforth they can't even stop them at Motherwell for supposedly 600,000 people living in Lanarkshire.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Not much chance of stopping mainline trains at Carnforth they can't even stop them at Motherwell for supposedly 600,000 people living in Lanarkshire.

I don't think you'd want to stop most of the current long-distance trains at Carnforth anyway - since most of the traffic to Carnforth is likely to be more local.

IMO Carnforth is one example of a wider problem on the West Coast Mainline - from Warrington northwards it passes through quite a few centres of population that generate substantial commuter traffic, but almost the only trains running on the line are long-distance trains that are not really there for local journeys. My own suspicion is there is a lot of suppressed demand on that corridor due to the somewhat irregular timetable, and the various communities missing stations along it.

Personally I'd 'solve' Carnforth by reopening the mainline platforms and extending the Windermere trains to run at least from Preston (maybe further south) and have them stop at Carnforth. A side-effect is it would allow you to reduce the number of long-distance trains stopping at Oxenholme (since many of the people changing there could change at Lancaster instead).

Combine that with a more frequent Barrow service that also runs further south, and you'll have vastly improved the service in the area, and also removed a lot of local traffic from the Scotland trains. And - perhaps more pertinent to this thread - provided a better case for electrifying the Barrow line, which I agree with other people is going to be low priority with current service patterns.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If I could choose any line to be electrified I would have to choose Birmingham New Street to Bristol, it should have been done a long time ago.

OT but I agree though I would argue Bristol -Derby especially now with MML approved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

-----IMO Carnforth is one example of a wider problem on the West Coast Mainline - Personally I'd 'solve' Carnforth by reopening the mainline platforms and extending the Windermere trains to run at least from Preston ---and have them stop at Carnforth. A side-effect is it would allow you to reduce the number of long-distance trains stopping at Oxenholme (since many of the people changing there could change at Lancaster instead).

Combine that with a more frequent Barrow service that also runs further south, and you'll have vastly improved the service in the area, and also removed a lot of local traffic from the Scotland trains. And - perhaps more pertinent to this thread - provided a better case for electrifying the Barrow line, which I agree with other people is going to be low priority with current service patterns.

agreed

 

[thenorthern]

I think if we had High Speed lines like in France the Windermere services would stop at Carnforth but as we are in Great Britain we have 5 trains per hour between Lancaster and Carnforth with speeds of between 75 and 125 MPH.

With Motherwell though I never get why Plymouth to Glasgow CrossCountry trains stop there but Manchester to Glasgow Transpennie don't.

 

[BantamMenace]

The ideal situation with Windermere/Furness lines in my eyes would be to electrify them both (after the Bolton corridor is complete).

TPE operate 1tph (class 350) MAI to Barrow (stopping at a couple of Manchester stations, Bolton, chorley, Preston, Lancaster, carnforth, then limited stop to barrow).

TPE operate 1tph (class 350) MAI to Windermere with same stopping patern as the above and then carnforth mainline, oxenholme and then all stations to Windermere.

Northern operate 1tph (4car emu) Lancaster to Barrow all stations from the bays at Lancaster.

No Virgin London train or TPE Scotland train stops at oxenholme (or the new carnforth mainline) but the Virgin Birmingham service stops at both all hours.

As a minor infill scheme I'd also electrify the Morecambe and Heysham branch so the shuttles on that line could use the same stock as the northern Lancaster to Barrow service mentioned above

 

[Spaceflower]

Can a DMU be coupled to an EMU?

Do we need to build some hybrids?

What about emergency planning? What happens if the electric goes down?

 

[TheWalrus]

The Furness line needs another train per hour

Do you have evidence to support an extra tph to Barrow?

 

[tbtc]

Personally I'd 'solve' Carnforth by reopening the mainline platforms and extending the Windermere trains to run at least from Preston (maybe further south) and have them stop at Carnforth. A side-effect is it would allow you to reduce the number of long-distance trains stopping at Oxenholme (since many of the people changing there could change at Lancaster instead)

I think that electrification to Windermere means resumption of direct regular daytime services to Manchester (though this may well be at the expense of most direct Barrow - Manchester services).

Not much chance of stopping mainline trains at Carnforth they can't even stop them at Motherwell for supposedly 600,000 people living in Lanarkshire

Agreed