Proposals for a new Cardiff Bus/Coach Station at Waungron Park

[Envoy]

I see that Cardiff Council have now given themselves planning permission for a transport interchange at Waungron Park station - on the City Line. I just cannot see any benefit in this as the buses to/from Fairwater & St.Fagans already stop underneath the railway bridge at this location and the City Circle buses are just 3 minutes walk away on Western Avenue.

By diverting the buses that go through Ely off the direct Cowbridge Road route will surely add about 10 minutes to their journeys? They will be able to interchange passengers with the Metro at the stop by the postal depot when the new Ely Mill station is built on the City Line near the footbridge over the main line. The stop by the Cowbridge Road postal depot is also served by the City Circle (1&2) buses as well as the Easyway 32 bus to/from Fairwater & St.Fagans. So, it seems to me that a load of money will be spent on something that will offer little or no gain and delay many bus journeys as well as cause traffic jams. (The latest Cardiff Council scheme in Sanatorium Road is now causing massive jams on Landsdowne Road and Broad Street with standing traffic causing pollution).

However, It looks like the Welsh Government may be having second thoughts about this scheme.

Plans for long-delayed Cardiff bus station and apartments approved

The bus interchange has been delayed for several years but forms a key part of the city's future public transport network

www.walesonline.co.uk

But despite the step forward, the council has received a “direction from Welsh Government” meaning the planning committee could not yet grant final permission for the scheme. One council officer said: “They’ve in essence frozen the decision-making process.” The Welsh Government might now call in the application, for ministers to take the final decision.

 

[carlberry]

I see that Cardiff Council have now given themselves planning permission for a transport interchange at Waungron Park station - on the City Line. I just cannot see any benefit in this as the buses to/from Fairwater & St.Fagans already stop underneath the railway bridge at this location and the City Circle buses are just 3 minutes walk away on Western Avenue.

By diverting the buses that go through Ely off the direct Cowbridge Road route will surely add about 10 minutes to their journeys? They will be able to interchange passengers with the Metro at the stop by the postal depot when the new Ely Mill station is built on the City Line near the footbridge over the main line. The stop by the Cowbridge Road postal depot is also served by the City Circle (1&2) buses as well as the Easyway 32 bus to/from Fairwater & St.Fagans. So, it seems to me that a load of money will be spent on something that will offer little or no gain and delay many bus journeys as well as cause traffic jams. (The latest Cardiff Council scheme in Sanatorium Road is now causing massive jams on Landsdowne Road and Broad Street with standing traffic causing pollution).

However, It looks like the Welsh Government may be having second thoughts about this scheme.

Plans for long-delayed Cardiff bus station and apartments approved

The bus interchange has been delayed for several years but forms a key part of the city's future public transport network

www.walesonline.co.uk

It's unbelievable that this is the same council that managed to destroy one of the best examples of transport integration in the area by selling off Cardiff's central bus station! Diverting the Ely buses is the kind of thing that most bus companies would just refuse to do however Cardiff Bus is more likely to comply because of the ownership and, with the Welsh governments wish to take control, in future they'd have no choice. The end result is 99% of passengers get a longer journey!

 

[Mwanesh]

Cardiff council needs a kick but then they know come what may they always get voted in

 

[TravelDream]

Cardiff council needs a kick but then they know come what may they always get voted in

In the last two decades, Cardiff Council has been run by Labour for 12 years and the Lib Dems for 8. Hardly a one-party state.

Over that time, there have been a lot of good ideas, but sadly they've often been poorly implemented. There've also been a lot of bad ideas too of course.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Is this an extra single central bus station or a new facility? What benefits do the proponents envisage? Is it linked to development, land sales/deals or the like?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Cardiff council needs a kick but then they know come what may they always get voted in

Yes really dumb move taking the bus and coach station away from the area by the main railway station and it was also good for the town centre. It shows to me that the people in charge have no regard for public transport whatsoever - but then again they do want to punish (SCREW) you for using your car.

 

[CN04NRJ]

When it was first proposed I couldn't think of a single reason why there needed to be, or why anyone would want or use an interchange there. I still can't think of a single reason.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is this an extra single central bus station or a new facility? What benefits do the proponents envisage? Is it linked to development, land sales/deals or the like?

It's an interchange for the western suburbs of Cardiff next to a rail station (Waungron Park). It means all the buses in the area from large parts of Western Cardiff not served by rail can access it a bit easier and the interchange will be nicer. Ely, Caerau and St Fagans are currently a bit cut off rail from by the look of it, Ely being very deprived.

 

[Envoy]

It's an interchange for the western suburbs of Cardiff next to a rail station (Waungron Park). It means all the buses in the area from large parts of Western Cardiff not served by rail can access it a bit easier and the interchange will be nicer. Ely, Caerau and St Fagans are currently a bit cut off rail from by the look of it, Ely being very deprived.

True but as I said at the beginning, people on the Ely route could make the change to/from the City Line at the proposed Ely Mill station and thus stay on the direct road route. If we have integrated ticketing, I wonder how many people from Ely will actually switch to the tram-trains on the City Line to continue their journey to the city centre? To make this viable, they would obviously have to have a very frequent service rather than the one train every 30 minutes that serves Waungron Park at present - less in the evenings and non on Sundays. For journeys further afield - such as to Radyr and the valleys or Cardiff Bay, it surely would make sense for people to switch from buses to the tram-trains in west Cardiff.

Anybody who wishes to travel by bus from Ely to Fairwater or vice-versa can easily switch routes at Victoria Park by taking a pleasant 8 minute walk through the park from one end to the other. That is assuming that they don’t use the Easyway 32 St.Fagans service which does link with Cowbridge Road for the journey via Canton. The trouble is that people have to pay again as this is a different company to those that go through Ely. Wonder if private bus companies Easyway and Adventure along with Stagecoach & First will be included in the integrated ticketing plan for The Metro rail services?

I note that they plan to build a block of flats for the homeless on part of the land. The Welsh Government have now put 50mph limits on parts of the A470 and M4 with large signs saying “Speed limit to Reduce Air Pollution”. That being so, how can it be OK to build a block of flats on one of the most polluted junctions in Cardiff - even more so when the extra buses arrive unless they go electric or hydrogen. No private buyer would be stupid enough to purchase at such a location but it is deemed OK for the homeless.

 

[anthony263]

That bus stop on the main road at Waun gron Park is a nightmare if there's more than one of you on the stop.

Personally I think the interchange is a good idea however I don't think diverting the 17/18 services and C1 to serve it is really necessary.

Certainly it be handy for our 320 service and the 32a especially on Sundays.

 

[carlberry]

It's an interchange for the western suburbs of Cardiff next to a rail station (Waungron Park). It means all the buses in the area from large parts of Western Cardiff not served by rail can access it a bit easier and the interchange will be nicer. Ely, Caerau and St Fagans are currently a bit cut off rail from by the look of it, Ely being very deprived.

Ely is cut off from rail but well served by bus, diverting it's direct buses to serve a rail station just inconveniences the 99% of passengers that just want to get to where they're going. Oddly the Ely buses used to terminate at a prime example of bus/rail coordination until the local council decided it would be better used for office space and car parking, now they have to walk further! Spending a bit of the cost of the new interchange on an Ely-Waungron Park shuttle would cover any actual needs.

 

[AlastairFraser]

True but as I said at the beginning, people on the Ely route could make the change to/from the City Line at the proposed Ely Mill station and thus stay on the direct road route. If we have integrated ticketing, I wonder how many people from Ely will actually switch to the tram-trains on the City Line to continue their journey to the city centre? To make this viable, they would obviously have to have a very frequent service rather than the one train every 30 minutes that serves Waungron Park at present - less in the evenings and non on Sundays. For journeys further afield - such as to Radyr and the valleys or Cardiff Bay, it surely would make sense for people to switch from buses to the tram-trains in west Cardiff.

Anybody who wishes to travel by bus from Ely to Fairwater or vice-versa can easily switch routes at Victoria Park by taking a pleasant 8 minute walk through the park from one end to the other. That is assuming that they don’t use the Easyway 32 St.Fagans service which does link with Cowbridge Road for the journey via Canton. The trouble is that people have to pay again as this is a different company to those that go through Ely. Wonder if private bus companies Easyway and Adventure along with Stagecoach & First will be included in the integrated ticketing plan for The Metro rail services?

I note that they plan to build a block of flats for the homeless on part of the land. The Welsh Government have now put 50mph limits on parts of the A470 and M4 with large signs saying “Speed limit to Reduce Air Pollution”. That being so, how can it be OK to build a block of flats on one of the most polluted junctions in Cardiff - even more so when the extra buses arrive unless they go electric or hydrogen. No private buyer would be stupid enough to purchase at such a location but it is deemed OK for the homeless.

Ely Mill doesn't currently exist and there may be significant capacity issues with building it, given the close proximity of Waun-gron Park, a superior location for the residents of Llandaff and Victoria Park. The residents of Ely may switch to the tram trains because they wish to avoid city centre congestion and having to change, when there may be a more direct train/tram train service for them. Certainly, while the Cardiff bus station fiasco continues, it will be easier to access Cardiff Central by local rail if wishing to make a medium or longer distance journey.

Although a 8 min walk through a park may be seen as a pleasant option in the broad daylight, it would not beat a direct, CCTV monitored interchange with a heated interchange at any other time of day and the ability or desire of passengers to make that walk is also an important factor. Journey planners may find it easier to create a journey itinerary changing at a named stop or interchange, rather than a walk through a park.

As for the bus service between Ely and Fairwater, I believe the intention is not to augment that, it's more for feeding bus passengers onto the faster rail option into Cardiff city centre. I assume the Welsh Government plan to introduce integrated ticketing for all services in South Wales/NE Wales - regardless of operator.
The junction may be completely different when the interchange is open - perhaps, as a result of the better connectivity offered, more local residents feel comfortable taking a combination of the bus and train and hence a reduction in traffic volumes.
Does anyone know if a congestion charge has been proposed for that area of Cardiff, that could mean a large projected decline in traffic volumes?

Ely is cut off from rail but well served by bus, diverting it's direct buses to serve a rail station just inconveniences the 99% of passengers that just want to get to where they're going. Oddly the Ely buses used to terminate at a prime example of bus/rail coordination until the local council decided it would be better used for office space and car parking, now they have to walk further! Spending a bit of the cost of the new interchange on an Ely-Waungron Park shuttle would cover any actual needs.

Maybe passengers would prefer using the bus and rail combo as it is faster and potentially cheaper if the WG speed up integration. How would you know if Ely passengers didn't prefer this before, given they've never really had the option? The diversion to serve the bus interchange will have a minimal impact on bus journey times anyway.

 

[carlberry]

Maybe passengers would prefer using the bus and rail combo as it is faster and potentially cheaper if the WG speed up integration. How would you know if Ely passengers didn't prefer this before, given they've never really had the option? The diversion to serve the bus interchange will have a minimal impact on bus journey times anyway.

The op stated 10 minutes delay on a journey that's only 30 minutes, even if only 5 minutes that's still significant. The current bus fare is £2 from Ely for a bus every 6 minutes as apposed to £3.30 from Waungron Park for a train every 30 minutes. So the residents of Ely get a slower journey by bus or a more expensive and slower journey by train. I'm sure they're looking forward to that!

 

[AlastairFraser]

The op stated 10 minutes delay on a journey that's only 30 minutes, even if only 5 minutes that's still significant. The current bus fare is £2 from Ely for a bus every 6 minutes as apposed to £3.30 from Waungron Park for a train every 30 minutes. So the residents of Ely get a slower journey by bus or a more expensive and slower journey by train. I'm sure they're looking forward to that!

With current frequencies and prices. The Welsh Government wouldn't invest in an interchange if they weren't intending to improve and integrate the service, there's absolutely no way the service would be provided without price equalisation with the bus, it'll likely be on a zonal system for all of Cardiff's transport.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Having lived in Ely for 13 years before moving (far) away - I can tell you I'd absolutely never consider changing off a bus to wait for a tram/train just to get to the city centre.

If I was travelling onwards by rail to somewhere then absolutely - having a 35-50 minute journey to use the 17/18/96 just to access the Central Railway station was a huge chore.

 

[anthony263]

Having lived in Ely for 13 years before moving (far) away - I can tell you I'd absolutely never consider changing off a bus to wait for a tram/train just to get to the city centre.

If I was travelling onwards by rail to somewhere then absolutely - having a 35-50 minute journey to use the 17/18/96 just to access the Central Railway station was a huge chore.

I do t think the 17/18 should even go to this interchange same with the C1 .

Other routes yes including the 15

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everyone for your further contributions.

At night, Victoria Park is locked but Victoria Park Road East provides a convenient and well lit walking route linking the bus routes on Cowbridge Road with the 61 Fairwater route at Chargot Road. Admittedly, it is travellers between Ely and Fairwater/Pentrebane who would find the new Interchange at Waungron more convenient but these would be relatively few in number. As I mentioned earlier, the Easyway 32 service to St.Fagans from the city centre does serve the same stops by the Postal Depot (Windway Road) as buses that go through Ely - though passengers switching routes must purchase separate tickets as it is a different company. (Easyway and Adventure are not included in any of the the ‘Plus Bus’ deals done by any train company as far as I am aware).

Presumably, the intention is to also get the Barry buses that use the A4050 via Wenvoe (Cardiff Bus route 96) to also use the new Interchange at Waungron? I wonder if the First Cymru buses on the Cardiff > Cowbridge > Bridgend > Porthcawl route are also expected to use the new Interchange? Then we have the private company Adventure who have cross city routes going from Culverhouse Cross to Pontprennau via Ely & Canton. I bet that they will refuse to use the new Interchange which will surely result in the citizens of Ely deserting Cardiff Bus for this private operator in order to avoid the delay of going into Waungron? If people on the 96 Barry route as well as the First Cymru Cowbridge/Bridgend/ Porthcawl route start kicking off about the delays caused at Waungron, they could well desert (if they ever use it in the first place) the Waungron Interchange. All of these buses could stick with the present Cowbridge Road route and any passengers for the Metro line could make the change at the proposed Ely Mill station. By the postal depot, the westbound routes could have a lay-bye - that’s assuming that the terrible plan to build another block of flats opposite the Spar is abandoned. (Main line railway at the back, City Line above and Cowbridge Road on the north side - what a terrible place for humans to live - but that is what Cardiff Council’s Planners think is a good idea).

If the Waungron Interchange is not built, they could still make a lay-bye for buses on the Fairwater route to pull into when going west. This would be a far better solution than the block of flats for the homeless being placed on this land.

So, we need clarity on what bus routes would be sent into this new Interchange and would it be just Cardiff Bus or would the other operators also use it? If all those buses on the Ely route do in fact use the interchange along with those already serving Fairwater, I predict massive traffic jams as presumably bus lanes will be placed on Western Avenue with normal traffic confined to one lane. That being so, westbound traffic would surely divert via Ely Road?

 

[anthony263]

Easyway and adventure travel are both part of the Cardiff plus bus scheme. The X2 goes down via the A4232 to Cardiff Bay Instead of Ely and lansdowne Road. The C1 might serve the interchange but that's uo to our management to decide

 

[Envoy]

Easyway and adventure travel are both part of the Cardiff plus bus scheme. The X2 goes down via the A4232 to Cardiff Bay Instead of Ely and lansdowne Road. The C1 might serve the interchange but that's uo to our management to decide

Many thanks for that. I did not realise that the First service X2 (Cardiff > Cowbridge > Bridgend > Porthcawl) now went via the A4232 expressway and then up to the city form the bay. That being so, I would imagine that the Adventure C1 service would now carry passengers from Canton & Ely to Culverhouse Cross in order to switch to the X2 and vice versa. (I can’t imagine that they would be too happy at having to pay twice over due to it being different companies).

I am pleased to see that Easyway & Adventure are in the Cardiff Plus Bus scheme.

In the event that any bus company management are reading this and they would wish to co-ordinate with train times, the easiest way of doing this is to go to the following site and fill in the location box. This is particularly important at places with poor frequency. eg. At Llantwit Major, I saw last summer an Adventure bus leave the station just as the train from Bridgend arrived!

Realtime Trains | Search

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Dai Corner]

Many thanks for that. I did not realise that the First service X2 (Cardiff > Cowbridge > Bridgend > Porthcawl) now went via the A4232 expressway and then up to the city form the bay. That being so, I would imagine that the Adventure C1 service would now carry passengers from Canton & Ely to Culverhouse Cross in order to switch to the X2 and vice versa. (I can’t imagine that they would be too happy at having to pay twice over due to it being different companies).

They could buy a Network Rider, valid on pretty much all buses in the south east including the X2 and C1.

In the event that any bus company management are reading this and they would wish to co-ordinate with train times, the easiest way of doing this is to go to the following site and fill in the location box. This is particularly important at places with poor frequency. eg. At Llantwit Major, I saw last summer an Adventure bus leave the station just as the train from Bridgend arrived!

I was going to suggest downloading the pdf timetable but TfW haven't published the current ones yet.

 

[Envoy]

They could buy a Network Rider, valid on pretty much all buses in the south east including the X2 and C1.

I was going to suggest downloading the pdf timetable but TfW haven't published the current ones yet.

Many thanks for the info on the Network Rider. I wonder how many of the general public are aware of this - should they have to change bus company to complete a trip? I also see that they still call Adventure NAT. With the NAT name now dropped from their buses, this could cause confusion.

 

[carlberry]

I was going to suggest downloading the pdf timetable but TfW haven't published the current ones yet.

It'll all work perfectly when the people who cant arrange a PDF version of a train timetable are in charge of all transport in Wales!

 

[anthony263]

Many thanks for that. I did not realise that the First service X2 (Cardiff > Cowbridge > Bridgend > Porthcawl) now went via the A4232 expressway and then up to the city form the bay. That being so, I would imagine that the Adventure C1 service would now carry passengers from Canton & Ely to Culverhouse Cross in order to switch to the X2 and vice versa. (I can’t imagine that they would be too happy at having to pay twice over due to it being different companies).

I am pleased to see that Easyway & Adventure are in the Cardiff Plus Bus scheme.

In the event that any bus company management are reading this and they would wish to co-ordinate with train times, the easiest way of doing this is to go to the following site and fill in the location box. This is particularly important at places with poor frequency. eg. At Llantwit Major, I saw last summer an Adventure bus leave the station just as the train from Bridgend arrived!

Realtime Trains | Search

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Please don't say about connection at llantwit major. The 321 timetable needs adjusting at it arrives st 55 minutes past each hour and departs at 25 minutes past.

 

[Envoy]

Please don't say about connection at llantwit major. The 321 timetable needs adjusting at it arrives st 55 minutes past each hour and departs at 25 minutes past.

The Adventure bus 321 operates Llantwit Major > Cowbridge > Ystradowen > Pontyclun > Talbot Green. It arrives at Llantwit Major x55 whilst the eastbound train (bound for Rhoose (Airport), Barry, Dinas Powis and Cardiff leaves at x56 thus making a connection unviable. At Pontyclun, eastbound trains normally call at x56. The northbound 321 bus calls x58. You could not make it up! The Welsh Government talks about an integrated transport service to try and reduce the use of cars yet they can’t seem able to get a member of staff to try and get bus companies to co-ordinate with trains on routes with low frequencies.

I note that Adventure (NAT) 320 which goes from Cardiff via Cathedral Road > Waungron > St.Fagans (via level crossing) > St.Georges > Peterston-super-Ely > Talbot Green. does not even mention the important Waungron stop for interchange with the trains - and neither does the Easyway 32A timetable which goes from Cardiff to St.Fagans museum (hourly at present but normally every 30 minutes). It should be noted that the half hourly trains on the City Line normally conveniently (nearly) pass at Waungron at x12/13 and x40/43 so it should be relatively easy to get the buses on low frequency routes such as 32A and 320 to try and drop off when eastbound just before the trains and pick up westbound just after the trains? (It does not matter so much on the 'Cardiff side' as the city is well served by frequent buses such as the 61).

 

[Dai Corner]

I note that Adventure (NAT) 320 which goes from Cardiff via Cathedral Road > Waungron > St.Fagans (via level crossing) > St.Georges > Peterston-super-Ely > Talbot Green. does not even mention the important Waungron stop for interchange with the trains - and neither does the Easyway 32A timetable which goes from Cardiff to St.Fagans museum (hourly at present but normally every 30 minutes). It should be noted that the half hourly trains on the City Line normally conveniently (nearly) pass at Waungron at x12/13 and x40/43 so it should be relatively easy to get the buses on low frequency routes such as 32A and 320 to try and drop off when eastbound just before the trains and pick up westbound just after the trains? (It does not matter so much on the 'Cardiff side' as the city is well served by frequent buses such as the 61).

it's only about 10 mins by bus into the city centre from Waungron Park. Why would I get off the bus, walk to the station, buy another ticket and wait for a train when I could stay on and arrive earlier?

 

[Envoy]

it's only about 10 mins by bus into the city centre from Waungron Park. Why would I get off the bus, walk to the station, buy another ticket and wait for a train when I could stay on and arrive earlier?

I agree with you that it highly unlikely that people coming from the west will get off buses, wait for a train at Waungron in order to complete their journey into the city centre - even though it is likely to take longer than 10 minutes by bus. They might do it in order to reach the Central station for a train or in order to use the train to reach Radyr and the central valleys or to take the train to/from Cardiff Bay (assuming a direct link is made from Central) or to take the train around to Heath, Llanishen, Lisvane and up the Caerphilly/Rhymney line. The plan is to have an integrated fare system rather than pay again when changing mode of transport.