Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[signed]

Don't the Lyrias go via Dijon

The Lausanne via Geneva don't, but the Vallorbe Lausanne go via Dijon.

The Zurich/Basel go via Dijon without stopping.

 

[Krokodil]

The Zurich/Basel go via Dijon without stopping.

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of. Marne-la-Vallée would be a suitable place to attach a Basel portion to a Geneva one.

 

[StephenHunter]

Apologies If I've missed it upthread, but do Eurostar plan to increase their fleet if they are successful with new routes and services? If so, will this be a brand new independent design, or the new TGV-M fleet???

They're planning to do that more generally, I think. In any event, the PBAs and e300s are getting rather old now.

 

[zwk500]

Dagenham is also another fair shout - is there any spare land there that isn't housing?

Not unless you want to demolish a distribution centre or two. Remember any Depot will need a connection facing St Pancras of some kind (although in theory it could be a set of reversing roads).

HS1 is in a tunnel until east of Ripple Lane yard, then you've got Ford's Dagenham works on one side and the C2C/LTS lines on the other. There's a wedge of land at Ferry Lane next to Rainham station squidged up alongside the A13 but that's all marshland so good luck getting the environmental permits for CET and so on. After that you've got Purfleet, and I suspect you'll have no easier time trying to flatten the woods by Mardyke. Then the line mounts the viaduct to split the A282 Dartford Crossing before immediately plunging into the viaduct under the Thames.
After the Thames it's immediately into Ebbsfleet, after which the first suitable site is opposite Singlewell IMD.

The use of UIC Gauge stock precludes any idea of trying to reuse space at Wembley Yard via the NLL.

 

[danchester]

They're planning to do that more generally, I think. In any event, the PBAs and e300s are getting rather old now.

Indeed this is a point that Jon Worth is currently making: if they need new stock anyway, what is holding them back from making an order (with options, to cover expansion) now and therefore adding credibility to their case re: depot space? Their potential competitors are all racing to demonstrate that they can acquire suitable stock - why not make the most of the advantage they have in this department as the incumbent? https://crossborderrail.trainsforeu...as-eurostar-still-not-ordered-any-new-trains/

 

[ShadowKnight]

Not unless you want to demolish a distribution centre or two. Remember any Depot will need a connection facing St Pancras of some kind (although in theory it could be a set of reversing roads).

HS1 is in a tunnel until east of Ripple Lane yard, then you've got Ford's Dagenham works on one side and the C2C/LTS lines on the other. There's a wedge of land at Ferry Lane next to Rainham station squidged up alongside the A13 but that's all marshland so good luck getting the environmental permits for CET and so on. After that you've got Purfleet, and I suspect you'll have no easier time trying to flatten the woods by Mardyke. Then the line mounts the viaduct to split the A282 Dartford Crossing before immediately plunging into the viaduct under the Thames.
After the Thames it's immediately into Ebbsfleet, after which the first suitable site is opposite Singlewell IMD.

The use of UIC Gauge stock precludes any idea of trying to reuse space at Wembley Yard via the NLL.

IT seems that alot of work will be needed to build a new depot on a new site. Perhaps UIC gauge clearing a route to Wembley yard might be more cost effective?

 

[zwk500]

IT seems that alot of work will be needed to build a new depot on a new site. Perhaps UIC gauge clearing a route to Wembley yard might be more cost effective?

It will not be. You'd need to demolish all platforms along the NLL, and rebuild the bridges and tunnels along the route, and then fit something to either platforms or Overground trains to allow passenger to still board.

There's a greenfield site opposite Singlewell IMD that I'm fairly sure HS1 Ltd/SPHS already owns most, if not all, of the land, that would require 1 additional turnout on the mainline (potentially even using the up loop so not even on the running lines). It would be a 15 minute journey or thereabouts for international stock transferring to/from St Pancras.

 

[signed]

How unrealistic would it be to build a full size depot around Ashford or Ebbsfleet for the entire HS1 operation?

 

[Trainbike46]

How unrealistic would it be to build a full size depot around Ashford or Ebbsfleet for the entire HS1 operation?

So replacing both TMI and the existing Southeastern depot(s)? Why would you?

 

[zwk500]

How unrealistic would it be to build a full size depot around Ashford or Ebbsfleet for the entire HS1 operation?

Not insanely unrealistic but they won't be getting rid of TMI. And any international operator will likely find much more cost-efficient space for bigger depots on the Continent, so any depot space in the UK will always be about supporting just the units required to start from London in the Morning.

The Javelins already have their depot at Ashford.

 

[Trainbike46]

Not insanely unrealistic but they won't be getting rid of TMI. And any international operator will likely find much more cost-efficient space for bigger depots on the Continent, so any depot space in the UK will always be about supporting just the units required to start from London in the Morning.

This kind of leads to the question - would it be feasible to design an operation with just a depot on the continent, and a small number* of trains staying overnight in the platforms at St Pancras?

*think something like 2 or 3

 

[TheWierdOne]

This kind of leads to the question - would it be feasible to design an operation with just a depot on the continent, and a small number* of trains staying overnight in the platforms at St Pancras?

*think something like 2 or 3

If you could find the depot space or land to build something in France or Belgium then I doubt HS1 would mind stabling trains over night in St Pancras. The question is where do you put the depot

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not unless you want to demolish a distribution centre or two. Remember any Depot will need a connection facing St Pancras of some kind (although in theory it could be a set of reversing roads).

HS1 is in a tunnel until east of Ripple Lane yard, then you've got Ford's Dagenham works on one side and the C2C/LTS lines on the other. There's a wedge of land at Ferry Lane next to Rainham station squidged up alongside the A13 but that's all marshland so good luck getting the environmental permits for CET and so on. After that you've got Purfleet, and I suspect you'll have no easier time trying to flatten the woods by Mardyke. Then the line mounts the viaduct to split the A282 Dartford Crossing before immediately plunging into the viaduct under the Thames.
After the Thames it's immediately into Ebbsfleet, after which the first suitable site is opposite Singlewell IMD.

The use of UIC Gauge stock precludes any idea of trying to reuse space at Wembley Yard via the NLL.

Tbh, Dagenham could then be a secondary site for any long term Channel Tunnel expansion, given how high value the market is (and the potential for growth as flying gets more expensive, in conjunction with future improvements to border technology ).

My preferred site was between the Dartford Crossing and the Thames, there is around 600 metres of track before the tunnel where a connection could be provided, and the surrounding land is mostly occupied by life expired industrial units.
(And, as I previously mentioned, Thurrock is hardly short of derelict industrial land with good road connections that a business could use).

 

[Bald Rick]

My preferred site was between the Dartford Crossing and the Thames, there is around 600 metres of track before the tunnel where a connection could be provided, and the surrounding land is mostly occupied by life expired industrial units.

How do you know they are life expired?
And how are you getting trains into it? HS1 is at maximum gradient there.

 

[AlastairFraser]

How do you know they are life expired?
And how are you getting trains into it? HS1 is at maximum gradient there.

Some of the properties on the site have significant areas demolished without any active plans for redevelopment.

I acknowledge the gradient is steep into the tunnel, but there is a section to the north where a spur could be constructed into the depot.

 

[Class15]

It will not be. You'd need to demolish all platforms along the NLL, and rebuild the bridges and tunnels along the route, and then fit something to either platforms or Overground trains to allow passenger to still board.

It would only be Camden Road if going from HS1 to Wembley.

 

[Bald Rick]

Some of the properties on the site have significant areas demolished without any active plans for redevelopment.

I acknowledge the gradient is steep into the tunnel, but there is a section to the north where a spur could be constructed into the depot.

How? The depot must be level. The line is not, and also the line is on viaduct (over the M25 at one point, at minimum clearances). IIRC the viaduct there is not built in a way that you can stick another one on to it. So you have to rebuild the viaduct (on a railway that closes for one day a year), have a spur off it, level off the spur at a vertical curve suitable for the trains concerned, and then get into the depot. The line crosses ground level only about 200m from the portal.

Its just not practical.

 

[popeter45]

How unrealistic would it be to build a full size depot around Ashford or Ebbsfleet for the entire HS1 operation?

Fawkham Junction already has a HS1 connection and is totally unused but the wrong direction so would need units to reverse at ashford or Singlewell sidings but apart from that would prob be the quickest option for a decent sized depo

 

[SynthD]

It would only be Camden Road if going from HS1 to Wembley.

How do you get from Camden Road to a line heading to Wembley that has no platforms, and then to the depot?

Could the north-south private sidings in Dagenham be turned into a station or depot?

 

[Class15]

How do you get from Camden Road to a line heading to Wembley that has no platforms, and then to the depot?

Could the north-south private sidings in Dagenham be turned into a station or depot?

If you go via Primrose Hill the only platforms encountered would be Primrose Hill (disused), South Hampstead (disused) and Queen’s Park (disused).

 

[zwk500]

If you go via Primrose Hill the only platforms encountered would be Primrose Hill (disused), South Hampstead (disused) and Queen’s Park (disused).

Reboring Primorose Hill tunnel and rebuilding the bridge for Willesden Jn High level would be somewhat of a pain though.
And what happens if Primrose hill is unavailable for engineering or an emergency? Do you just tell E* to suck it up?

 

[Class15]

Reboring Primorose Hill tunnel and rebuilding the bridge for Willesden Jn High level would be somewhat of a pain though.
And what happens if Primrose hill is unavailable for engineering or an emergency? Do you just tell E* to suck it up?

Could you use the Wembley facility for 373s, which don’t have the same clearance issues, and continue to service other stock at Temple Mills? (Probably impossible I know)

 

[zwk500]

Could you use the Wembley facility for 373s, which don’t have the same clearance issues, and continue to service other stock at Temple Mills? (Probably impossible I know)

In theory yes, but at the cost of massively constraining the maintenance planning and kicking the can down the road for when the 373s reach the end of their life.
If trains got rediagrammed in-flight due to disruption then missing the slot through Camden Road would be fairly destructive to timetable performance.

 

[Trainbike46]

Could you use the Wembley facility for 373s, which don’t have the same clearance issues, and continue to service other stock at Temple Mills? (Probably impossible I know)

Even if you could, Eurostar wouldn't be willing to do that*, and whatever stock replaces the 373s will not be able to access it regardless.

*remember, the ORR is only looking at providing any capacity that is spare at TMI to potential competition, not at forcing Eurostar to relocate its maintenance. Eurostar's position is essentially that, by the time a competitor could use it, there won't be any spare capacity at the depot.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Reboring Primorose Hill tunnel and rebuilding the bridge for Willesden Jn High level would be somewhat of a pain though.
And what happens if Primrose hill is unavailable for engineering or an emergency? Do you just tell E* to suck it up?

What would have happened if the West London Line was closed when they went to Waterloo?

 

[MarkyT]

What would have happened if the West London Line was closed when they went to Waterloo?

If the blockage was south of North Pole Junction, there is a route to go round via Kew Spur, Acton Wells and Willesden, reversing into the depot using the scissors at the junction, but the electrification isn't continuous and I don't know if Eurostars would have been gauge cleared that way when hauled. European Passenger services retained a handful of 37/6 locomotives for thunderbird duties after Nightstar was abandoned in 1997. The last two left North Pole in 2007. Depot hauls via unusual routes are certainly possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

Reboring Primorose Hill tunnel and rebuilding the bridge for Willesden Jn High level would be somewhat of a pain though.
And what happens if Primrose hill is unavailable for engineering or an emergency? Do you just tell E* to suck it up?

And increasing track separation, and relaying all the pointwork for end throw, and moving everything in the way such as signals, OLE masts etc etc.

Could you use the Wembley facility for 373s, which don’t have the same clearance issues, and continue to service other stock at Temple Mills? (Probably impossible I know)

The 373s are being retired.

 

[zwk500]

What would have happened if the West London Line was closed when they went to Waterloo?

I expect E* were just told to suck it up (as they would be if TMI was unavailable). It's a valid answer but obviously a trade off, and if you are already tying yourself down by restricting Wembley to 373s only losing any more flexibility is unwelcome.

 

[Cach17]

If a new HS1 depot does get built, the field west of the Fawkham connection line around Southfleet/Betsham would be a good place to put it, although as @zwk500 pointed out it'd be awkward having to reverse at Singlewell, let alone Ashford.

Tangentially related, but the 2021 Kent Rail Strategy mentions (on page 24) the proposed Ebbsfleet Southern Link, which would allow trains to run between Ebbsfleet Int'l and London Victoria via Bromley. If such a connection ever got built (which is slightly pie in the sky, honestly) then it would make accessing a potential Southfleet depot from STP far easier.