Proposed new Far North Line timetable?

[InOban]

A 230 doing a Thurso-Wick shuttle wouldn't be a bad idea as there is a non-trivial local flow between the two.

There is, and it is much better served by the buses which have the advantage of calling at the places people actually want to go.

Not going to argue with that. It's worth remembering, though, that the Far North Line is effectively a "social railway" (as you allude), and LEJOG cyclists are a significant contributor to the Thurso/Wick tourism economy.

Hardly significant. The main tourist economy is the NC500 road trip and traffic to Orkney which mainly now uses Gills Bay.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

NC500 trippers don't stay in B&Bs or hotels, they stay in their (motor) caravans. The stereotype, which I suspect contains a kernel of truth, is that they load up with food in an Inverness supermarket and then don't contribute much to the local economy... apart from congestion. Anyway, we're getting off topic.

 

[Greybeard33]

Fair enough. What I was hoping to find was a track diagram, not necessarily a live signalling diagram. The only places I'm aware of online which have them Traksy and Opentrain times.

You can download the Network Rail Sectional Appendix from https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...Scotland Sectional Appendix December 2020.pdf

The FNL is in Module SC15; Inverness - Wick is Line of Route SC203, pp 7-37, while Georgemas Jn - Thurso is SC207, pp 48-49. These diagrams give the track layout, distances, speeds etc.

The (numerous!) Local Instructions are listed from p55 onwards.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Anyone who ever questions the skill, knowledge or professionalism required of drivers should look at the Sectional Appendix and realise that drivers have to know all that information by heart, in order to sign a route.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

NC500 trippers don't stay in B&Bs or hotels, they stay in their (motor) caravans. The stereotype, which I suspect contains a kernel of truth, is that they load up with food in an Inverness supermarket and then don't contribute much to the local economy... apart from congestion. Anyway, we're getting off topic.

I imagine many bring food from home in England and spend next to nothing in Scotland
Their big heavy vehicles just wear out the narrow roads

 

[Bald Rick]

NC500 trippers don't stay in B&Bs or hotels...

Many do, particular those in cars or on bike s(motor or otherwise).

Had a lovely chat last year with 2 parties doing it by car, in a Hotel on the 500.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Four of the five intermediate stations between Helmsdale and Georgemas are in the bottom 35 stations nationally in terms of passenger useage in the 2019/20 stats with a combined total of just 1134 passengers - that is an average of a fraction over three passengers per day across the four stations, and 40% of those are at Kinbrace.

One might argue the present trains could predominantly run semi fast north of Helmsdale.

I wonder how many of the 1134 are 'regulars' and how many are 'one off' journeys. Maybe there is a pattern to which trains do get used occasionally and these hardly ever used could have the stops taken out. Use may vary by direction of travel, time of day and day of the week.

Two stations between Tain and Helmsdale are also in the bottom 35.

Also some very low numbers on the Kyle line where a similar limited stop argument could be presented.

For me stopping patters for any station (nationally) with less than 1000 footfall per annum - 3 per day - would be worthy of examination, acknowledging there could be some locations (probably a small number) where the infrequent and perhaps not very useful train service is what drives the low numbers and an increased frequency could generate more passengers.

For the 60 minute frequency between Inverness and Tain, with some increases to 30 minutes between Inverness and Dingwall (both short workings and also the Kyle of Lochalsh trains for this section), ideally the track needs to be reinstated at Lentran to create a dynamic loop and also ideally, a dynamic loop somewhere between Evanton and Alness or Alness and Invergorden as it is an arrow straight section of track.

Without dynamic loops, the timetable would not be robust enough leading to delays and cancellations, which in turn would not encourage people to leave cars at home and use public transport.

The journey time Inverness - Muir of Ord (passing loop) is 20 minutes, Muir of Ord - Dingwall is 10-11 minutes totalling 30-31 minutes for that section. Dingwall - Invergordon is 17 minutes, and Invergordon - Tain is 19 minutes. In total, Inverness - Tain is broadly 63 minutes, and trying to build the timetable around the existing passing points can be challenging. I did start a thread in the Speculative Ideas section a while ago regarding a Taktplan (clock face departures) with 2 different versions. The second version was based on a hypothetical rail crossing of the Dornoch Firth, diverging near the caravan site north of Tain, crossing the Firth, into Dornoch, then the former alignment via Embo to rejoin the original route with a north to east curve towards Golspie.

Both Evanton and Alness had loops, Evanton until 1962 and Alness until 1967.Fifty plus years on are the formations still there and might topography at either end lend itself to a significantly longer and potentially dynamic loop at either? Evanton is pretty close to midway between Dingwall and Invergordon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One might argue the present trains could predominantly run semi fast north of Helmsdale.

The morning southbound already does. TBH, the others probably do as well, as you're not going to get an Altnabreac request every day.

 

[47827]

I'll agree with the comment a couple of pages back that suggested the infrastructure simply isn't up to service improvements being suggested. Even the Kyle line could desperately do with a few more passing loops as there is no give in the infrastructure. A common giveaway in the last few decades has been charters with portable RETB kit when the signal is sometimes lost in the station causing delayed departure and a choice then to either delay a service train or put another lengthy delay into the charter with knock on effects further south. The same happens whenever just one service train is late in the middle of the day or mid to late morning when traffic is heavy between Dingwall and Inverness.

Whilst a few extra loops or loops replaced with longer dynamic loops would be useful on the far north (especially on the bottom part), Dingwall to Inverness urgently needs to be considered for double track on any parts infrastructure would allow it as its a real struggle to squeeze anything extra in during the busiest 12 hours of the day. I imagine a similar situation as Saltney to Wrexham where a few miles of single track would have to be retained at least. For example the early 1990s rebuild of the Ness bridge only permits single track into Inverness and I think there's an odd other bridge where single track would have to be retained. Without this key part of the route upgraded any timetable rehash bar looking at lengthening trains during peak periods of the day or times of year just doesn't work. The Cambrian performance was a struggle as soon Aberystwyth trains began running most hours of the day, even with minor route improvements. The charter and freight/engineering train slots left were simply not adequate with virtually no charters just before covid for a few years and engineering moves often running hours late when they lose a path. The plan suggested on this thread looks to be a bit more complex and ambitious on the bottom half of the route without the infrastructure improvements it needs. I'm not sure how you could even do 30 minute frequency between Inverness and Muir of Ord as it would only take a 5 minute delay to a single service to cause a potentially hefty domino effect throughout the day.

 

[backontrack]

The Wick - Helmsdale services may be more about "we might as well do something with this unit in between the longer trips" or "we'll keep these in the timetable for now but potentially withdraw them after a couple of years due to poor demand", maybe it'd be a lot easier if the timetable only had one passenger unit north of Helmsdale at any stage, so you've got a fairly blank sheet of paper to run it - there are no single line constraints if there is only one train on the line. Obviously freight complicates that a little but you know what I mean - the timetable must be a really awkward one to tweak slightly, given the need to coincide at passing places and build in enough spare time as contingency in case the service in the opposite direction is a little late - splitting at Helmsdale would permit a lot more freedom to tweak the timetable.

I think it's more about using Wick Depot fully.

I think there's clearly value in the Helmsdale-Thurso-Wick part of the railway - I'm glad no-one's suggesting closure north of Helmsdale, or north of Tain - but it's interesting how that value is maximised, because it really is the early morning and evening northbound and southbound services that really matter, providing the connection with the ferry to Scrabster as well as just generally being the most useful services if you want to get to/from Caithness from/to Inverness, giving you the most time at your destination. Overall, it's really polarised. Not that people don't use the other departures - they do, although more from Thurso than from Wick - but I'd argue that a change at Helmsdale isn't going to impede these passengers excessively. The FoFNL are pursuing the right options here, coupled with their commitments to improving the infrastructure of the line at Lentran/Kinbrace/Georgemas.

Traffic to Orkney mainly now uses Gills Bay.

I think that's a sizeable generalisation.

 

[paul1609]

When I finished my July 2019 Lands End to John O Groats walk I went over the foot ferry and stayed in a pub at St Margarets Hope (orkney terminal of the Gills Bay Ferry) for 4 nights whilst I explored Orkney before flying back down to Southend. I got the impression that the Scrabster to Stromness Ferry route was by far the more important.
Hope to do the NC500 by motor bike next year and Ill be camping/ staying in hotels and mostly eating in local establishments I imagine.

 

[Unstoppable]

I can't for the life of me imagine they won't connect, but what is likely is a Wick driver (can't remember if they are Wick or Thurso) will go to Helmsdale then drive back; with an Inverness driver at Helmsdale also going back. Makes sense to connect as the arrival from Inverness and Helmsdale at a similar time will result in a similar departure time back from whence they came. It must be resource-driven.

The shifts nowadays are as follows

Wick based drivers

Wick - Lairg - Wick 06:18 - 11:31
Wick - Inverness - Wick 08:02 - 18:22
Wick - Inverness - Wick 12:34 - 22:52

Inverness based drivers

All the local services plus Inverness - Wick - inverness 10:41 - 20:10

Surely a competitor for the longest driver days out there and longest time sat in the cab driving? The above times do not include booking on/unit prep or booking off

 

[adrock1976]

The shifts nowadays are as follows

Wick based drivers

Wick - Lairg - Wick 06:18 - 11:31
Wick - Inverness - Wick 08:02 - 18:22
Wick - Inverness - Wick 12:34 - 22:52

Inverness based drivers

All the local services plus Inverness - Wick - inverness 10:41 - 20:10

Surely a competitor for the longest driver days out there and longest time sat in the cab driving? The above times do not include booking on/unit prep or booking off

Is the shift I have bolded the one where the trains are timetabled to pass each other at Lairg?

 

[Unstoppable]

Is the shift I have bolded the one where the trains are timetabled to pass each other at Lairg?

Yes, cross over at Lairg and straight back up the road to finish

 

[Watershed]

Yes, cross over at Lairg and straight back up the road to finish

They must have an agreement in place to swap drivers and conductors across the platform. Not something allowed at all TOCs unfortunately!

 

[Unstoppable]

They must have an agreement in place to swap drivers and conductors across the platform. Not something allowed at all TOCs unfortunately!

West Highlands do it at Ardlui too. Straight across to the other train and back down

 

[whoosh]

I expect the short early morning shift preps both morning trains before departing with the 06:18.

 

[InOban]

But at Lairg it requires crossing the tracks. Ardlui like most WHL stations is an island.

 

[Kite159]

But at Lairg it requires crossing the tracks. Ardlui like most WHL stations is an island.

Or they can simply use the footbridge

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or they can simply use the footbridge

I don't think that was meant literally, probably more that the issue would be that the trains would be fully without traincrew for the period of the swap. Whereas on an island platform they aren't really.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I don't think that was meant literally, probably more that the issue would be that the trains would be fully without traincrew for the period of the swap. Whereas on an island platform they aren't really.

That has always been the way in the Highlands in my lifetime. Do modern regs. forbid this - perhaps in certain TOCs but obviously not all? The traincrew are all on the station even if not on the train for the couple of minutes it takes to swap over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That has always been the way in the Highlands in my lifetime. Do modern regs. forbid this - perhaps in certain TOCs but obviously not all? The traincrew are all on the station even if not on the train for the couple of minutes it takes to swap over.

Sounds very much like other similar things, like the fact that LNR allow a 12-car non-gangwayed 319 to be operated by one driver and one guard, and Thameslink allowed an 8-car 319 to be DOO with no crew in the back half at all, whereas a number of other TOCs e.g. GWR require crew other than the driver in both portions, and if I recall rightly there is a TOC that won't even let staff "unit hop" if the pair is gangwayed. Often down to local agreements, for some reason I've never entirely understood because the safety and customer service implication doesn't differ that much from TOC to TOC.

 

[ainsworth74]

Can we please try and remain on topic and discuss this proposed Far North timetable and ancillary considerations? Thank you

 

[davyp]

trains stop, then
guards swap trains, then
drivers swap trains
trains continue their journey.
both trains have a crew presence at all times...

 

[Watershed]

trains stop, then
guards swap trains, then
drivers swap trains
trains continue their journey.
both trains have a crew presence at all times...

Yes, but both trains are in passenger service (albeit briefly) without both a driver and a guard. Which theoretically shouldn't happen on a guarded service.

Of course local agreements like this are entirely sensible given that you have two pairs of traincrew for two trains, neither of which are going anywhere until everyone is on board.

 

[berneyarms]

That has always been the way in the Highlands in my lifetime. Do modern regs. forbid this - perhaps in certain TOCs but obviously not all? The traincrew are all on the station even if not on the train for the couple of minutes it takes to swap over.

Train crew swapping trains at crossing points has been perfectly normal practice on Iarnród Éireann over my lifetime too on single line routes.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Yes, but both trains are in passenger service (albeit briefly) without both a driver and a guard. Which theoretically shouldn't happen on a guarded service.

Of course local agreements like this are entirely sensible given that you have two pairs of traincrew for two trains, neither of which are going anywhere until everyone is on board.

Presumably both trains started there journey in a platform at Wick or Inverness, doors unlocked, passengers getting on as they arrived, without crew on board? At Redhill (for example) the GWR trains reverse with crew swapping ends, so routinely have a train with no crew on board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably both trains started there journey in a platform at Wick or Inverness, doors unlocked, passengers getting on as they arrived, without crew on board? At Redhill (for example) the GWR trains reverse with crew swapping ends, so routinely have a train with no crew on board.

Varies by TOC. At some it's practice to leave trains unlocked with no crew at all, at some it tends to only require one of the two, at others both need to be there to unlock. At others again (e.g. LNR) it depends on how strict the member of staff is following procedure - for Bletchley starters, for example, some drivers will release the doors once they have taken the unit into the station from the sidings but before the guard arrives, and others won't. Won't seems more common than will now (used to be the opposite way round) so I suspect there has been a crackdown.

I doubt any lock up for simply changing ends, as the crew are still with the train.

 

[philthetube]

That has always been the way in the Highlands in my lifetime. Do modern regs. forbid this - perhaps in certain TOCs but obviously not all? The traincrew are all on the station even if not on the train for the couple of minutes it takes to swap over.

Train crew swapping trains at crossing points has been perfectly normal practice on Iarnród Éireann over my lifetime too on single line routes.

Happens on the underground occasionally for operational reasons, occasionally at locations such as Camden where the trains are not in sight of each other.

 

[D9006]

For rail track layouts I use raildat.co.uk. Came across but just tapping rail track layo in the uk. Gives train movements too. Shows all sidings disused and current too

Dar not dat , predtive text