Prosecution for not tapping in

[SparkA]

I bought £15:00 on to my Oyster card.

I forgot to tap in at the station as I was on the phone and with no barrier to make me tap in I forgot.

The man on the train inspected my card and said I did not tap in. Wanted my details. I explained to him that I forgot to tap in. He said that I would have to go to court as this was the third time. The two previous times were when I did not buy a ticket I accept I done wrong.

This time I set out and paid for my journey to Wimbledon which was a tap in all the way there and back to chelsfield. He would not accept this that I had forgotten and basically said I would be fare avaiding that day. Which was u true. I thought hat if I had forgotten it would charge me a full fare that day for my mistake.

I offered to go all the way back to chelsfield to tap my card in and also that I would pay the necsary fare for my current journey . He was adamant that I purposely did this and was not prepared to take payments or for me to go back and issues me with a court proceedings.

I am
Worried hatbthsi will now give me criminal record.

A man heard my story on the train and came up to me to give me some money as he thoughts the man was totally unreasonable.

I have children that I have to go back to from chelsfield to chelsfield and therefore I am
Not in a position to be paying out extra money way for a genuine mistake. I had enough money on my card to allow me to travel that day.

I hope that I can make a string case that this was a mistake

 

[district]

Did he interview you under caution?

By this I mean did he tell you that you didn't have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you did not mention when questioned something in which you may later rely on in court and that anything you did say could be used in evidence?

 

[cuccir]

TfL will contact you soon asking for your side of the story. You should share your apologies for making a mistake with them, point out that you had the money on you to pay for the fare and were willing to pay for it, and ask if they are willing to settle out of court for the fare missed plus costs for them in following this case up.

Unfortunately for you, TfL are less likely than others to accept out of court settlements. It is worth asking, but I would not like to promise you that there's a good chance of them accepting.

If they proceed to prosecute, they will do so either under the Transport for London Byelaws (lower fine, no criminal record) or Regulations of the Railways Act (higher fine, criminal record). For the latter, they will have to provide evidence that you intended to avoid paying the fare; unfortunately for you, intention is based on actions, and if they tried to prosecute you under the latter then your previous failure to buy a ticket would contribute to their evidence for this.

For now, it is likely that you will have to wait for them to contact you. If they reject an out of court settlement and push towards a Byelaw prosecution then you have very little chance of defence and you should probably plead guilty and accept the fine. If they push towards a more serious Regulations of the Railways Act, you should probably speak to a solicitor.

 

[Deerfold]

TfL will contact you soon asking for your side of the story. You should share your apologies for making a mistake with them, point out that you had the money on you to pay for the fare and were willing to pay for it, and ask if they are willing to settle out of court for the fare missed plus costs for them in following this case up.

Unfortunately for you, TfL are less likely than others to accept out of court settlements. It is worth asking, but I would not like to promise you that there's a good chance of them accepting.

If they proceed to prosecute, they will do so either under the Transport for London Byelaws (lower fine, no criminal record) or Regulations of the Railways Act (higher fine, criminal record). For the latter, they will have to provide evidence that you intended to avoid paying the fare; unfortunately for you, intention is based on actions, and if they tried to prosecute you under the latter then your previous failure to buy a ticket would contribute to their evidence for this.

For now, it is likely that you will have to wait for them to contact you. If they reject an out of court settlement and push towards a Byelaw prosecution then you have very little chance of defence and you should probably plead guilty and accept the fine. If they push towards a more serious Regulations of the Railways Act, you should probably speak to a solicitor.

It's not clear it was a TfL RPI.

Question to the OP: where where you when questioned? Do you know what company the official was from?

 

[Clip]

It's not clear it was a TfL RPI.

Question to the OP: where where you when questioned? Do you know what company the official was from?

You're right it isnt clear but I would put a good guess that it was a Tramlink member of staff as I cant remember the last time I saw an RPI working the SE routes when Ive been on them around that area

 

[Haywain]

I think we would also wonder how he knew this was your third time? Has the same person caught you twice before?

 

[cuccir]

It's not clear it was a TfL RPI.

Question to the OP: where where you when questioned? Do you know what company the official was from?

Ah well spotted - yes, this is a key point. If it was not someone from Transport for London (TfL) then you may have a higher chance of having an out of court offer accepted.

 

[najaB]

I think we would also wonder how he knew this was your third time? Has the same person caught you twice before?

I presume it was a check against the ID details provided and/or the Oyster card if it was registered.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I think we would also wonder how he knew this was your third time? Has the same person caught you twice before?

Details taken and checked, database says person has been caught twice before. I've witnessed this happen.

 

[SparkA]

Thank you for your message

He did not caution me.

It's a shame really as there were witnesses around me , I should have got the guy on the train to be a witness

I paid for the ticket but forgot to touch in

I gave him my details as he said he was taking me to court for fare avaiding . He did not have any of his colleagues around him as witnesses for him. There will be evidence that in the CCTV that I was on the phone

 

[SparkA]

He was very u reasonable he was SOUTH EASTERN GUY

I accept the lady two times were some time ago and I didn't buy a ticket

However their processes they pick and choose how they deal with it as sometimes I see people on trains buying tickets from the ticket man and him not even charging fines , my ticket for the day would charge me the full rate for not touching in so I am
Penalised by that and penalised by Theo's pending court attendance

Also if there was a barrier there this would stop the innocent people who forget as I see this and licences to make money from an innocent mistake

Can I get legal aid to defend my case

 

[mikeg]

The problem is (assuming this was a pay as you go oyster) you loaded it with sufficient funds but without tapping in you didn't pay the correct fare. The money on the card isn't a ticket but a method of funding your travel - a virtual wallet if you will. So without tapping your oyster you could have used those funds to gain travel later on. You have therefore neither paid nor have a valid ticket. You haven't answered who the inspector worked for. This is important as it will be the company you are dealing with and can also affect which byelaws apply if they choose a byelaw prosecution. As mentioned before if its tfl there is a lower chance of settling out of court than if it is a private operator, but it is still worth a try.

You say you don't want to pay anything extra, unfortunately either way you will likely have to as it was your error that has incurred the expense. I appreciate this may seem unjust but as someone who admits to deliberately evading the fare on previous occasions you must be able to see why they a are going down this route.

Edit. Ah south eastern, sorry didn't see that. Chances are you can settle out of court with an apology, an offer to pay the fare plus any costs incurred. Don't think you can get legal aid for this situation.

In the meantime I suggest climbing down from your high horse and accepting the situation.

 

[SparkA]

I accept the situation but it was not intential to not tap in. I also accept extra costs and was prepared to pay the fare from where I set off.

I don't even know how much I would have saved by not tapping in. I was going to Wimbledon and travelling back and have the pay as you go on there to do that. If I bought a ticket I would have been okay . Maybe I have to do that in the future so I never make the mistake

 

[AlterEgo]

However their processes they pick and choose how they deal with it as sometimes I see people on trains buying tickets from the ticket man and him not even charging fines

Not relevant, I'm afraid.

my ticket for the day would charge me the full rate for not touching in so I am Penalised by that and penalised by Theo's pending court attendance

It would only charge you the full rate if you touched out... In any case, in theory, you could just purchase a Raynes Park-Wimbledon single for diddly squat to get through the barrier, thus avoiding the fare.

Also if there was a barrier there this would stop the innocent people who forget as I see this and licences to make money from an innocent mistake

Maybe that is so.

But nonetheless, touching in is your responsibility and yours alone. As you have two previous incidents before this one, I am not surprised the officer referred your case for prosecution.

Once is unfortunate, two is careless, three is suspicious.

 

[najaB]

He did not caution me.

That doesn't really matter that much, all it means is that his anything he's written about what was said can't be entered as evidence. They have enough evidence to achieve a successful prosecution without it.

I paid for the ticket but forgot to touch in

With respect, you didn't. You put money onto your PAYG Oyster card, but until the tap in/out is processed you haven't paid your fare.

He was very u reasonable he was SOUTH EASTERN GUY

London & South Eastern Railway are more likely to accept an out of court settlement than TfL would be.

Also if there was a barrier there this would stop the innocent people who forget as I see this and licences to make money from an innocent mistake

The presence or absence of a barrier makes little or no difference. The Railway Byelaws and Regulation of Railways Act refer to boarding and/or travelling by train, not entering platform (unless it's a compulsory ticket area). Even if there is no barrier, it should be fairly obvious that you are boarding/travelling on a train.

Can I get legal aid to defend my case

I dare say that given the evidence that Southeastern have it's in your best interest that this gets nowhere near a court.

 

[DaleCooper]

It's a shame really as there were witnesses around me , I should have got the guy on the train to be a witness

I paid for the ticket but forgot to touch in

Witnesses to what, the fact that you hadn't paid your fare?

There will be evidence that in the CCTV that I was on the phone

Perhaps you should pay less attention to your phone as being on your phone is no excuse.

Also if there was a barrier there this would stop the innocent people who forget as I see this and licences to make money from an innocent mistake

Can I get legal aid to defend my case

As you admit to the offence why do you think you should get legal aid, particularly as you also admit to being a repeat offender?

 

[SparkA]

Thank you , it's helpful to know. Just wish I paid for an actual ticket I had the money to do that

I can see and understand but I did not go out I itly to not pay for my journey to and from Wimbeldon. You say about Rayners park I don't know and not interested to know how I could ha e done any sneaky moves I put the money on to make my joinery that day. It was a mistake I put he money on the card and forgot to touch in.

Am I not penalised anyway for not touching in that day and for it to be charged a s a travel card or full fares ?

Why was it not acceptable for me to pay fot that journey that I had forgotten to touch in.

 

[SparkA]

I had paid my fare but just not tapped in. I was not intentionally fare avaiding, how much was I actually trying to dodge £3? Really when I put the whole amout. No that was. Or the case.

Okay , how do I make my case acceptable for an out of court settlement , any help of other experience South Eastern

Did he interview you under caution?

By this I mean did he tell you that you didn't have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you did not mention when questioned something in which you may later rely on in court and that anything you did say could be used in evidence?

Is there a process he should follow?

 

[MikeWh]

There are several posts from the OP that have just been approved. Please re-read the thread from #12 before making any further comments.

 

[AlterEgo]

I had paid my fare but just not tapped in. I was not intentionally fare avaiding, how much was I actually trying to dodge £3? Really when I put the whole amout. No that was. Or the case.

No, you had not paid your fare, because you had not tapped in.

It's the same logic as drawing £10 out of the cash machine, not buying a ticket, and being caught on the train. "Oh but my wallet has money in!"

The inspector has no idea whether you were going to alight at another unbarriered station at the end of your journey. If you do not tap in then you are liable to a penalty fare or prosecution. I can understand people make a mistake, but emphasis is on *a* mistake. This is the third time you have been caught which is three times more than most people.

My advice is to stop arguing the toss and wait for contact from SouthEastern. Then, you can send them a letter offering the fare plus admin costs to avoid court action.

 

[najaB]

I had paid my fare but just not tapped in.

You had not paid any fare. Until you understand and acknowledge this you aren't going to get very far with achieving an out of court settlement.

Okay , how do I make my case acceptable for an out of court settlement , any help of other experience South Eastern

When trying to reach a settlement the main thing you need to keep in mind is that the prosecutors are people and that if you make life easy for them then they are more likely to go easy on you. So keep all correspondence brief and to the point, spellcheck is your friend and be polite.

Letters that have been successful tend to contain the following: an acknowledgement of what you did wrong, an offer to pay the outstanding fare and a contribution to any costs and an undertaking to always pay the fare or tap in/out in future.

 

[6Gman]

I had paid my fare but just not tapped in. I was not intentionally fare avaiding, how much was I actually trying to dodge £3? Really when I put the whole amout. No that was. Or the case.

Tapping in is how you pay your fare!

As others have said, wait for your letter then try to negotiate a settlement.

But there's no purpose wrangling about whether you actually paid (you didn't) or claiming that you weren't liable because you were on the phone (irrelevant).

 

[SparkA]

At the end of my journey I was charged the full fare and travel card for my journeys taken.

The previous times were when I did not buy a ticket many many years ago. I had my meeting booked up for sometime to go to Wimbledon for my whole journey yesterday would have charged me a travel card.

Why was I not offered to pay for my fare?

Why would I try put myself in this situation I would not know how much that would save me by doing a non tapping in.

I have spoken to telephone support at South Eastern to see their procedures of what is to happen. I offered to pay for my journey that I did not tap in by ACCIDENT and he did not want to accept that.

Tapping in is how you pay your fare!

As others have said, wait for your letter then try to negotiate a settlement.

But there's no purpose wrangling about whether you actually paid (you didn't) or claiming that you weren't liable because you were on the phone (irrelevant).

Thank you. I would accept if I tried to do this on purpose but I did not intentionally go out to fare avaid and the whole journey st the end of the day was paid for.

and the persons comment to Raners Park I have never been and have no need to go there as I was going to Wimbeldon

 

[najaB]

Thank you. I would accept if I tried to do this on purpose but I did not intentionally go out to fare avaid and the whole journey st the end of the day was paid for.

The simple fact is that by boarding without tapping in you committed an offence. Add to that the fact that you have 'previous' and it's not surprising that Southeastern are interested in taking matters further.

If you follow the strategy that I and others have outlined then there is every chance you will achieve an acceptable settlement. You won't achieve much if you continue in the way you have in your posts so far.

 

[MikeWh]

I've been following this thread throughout the day but haven't had time to properly respond before. I'll start by saying that I fully understand how easy it is to forget to touch in just after topping up - I've done it myself. Fortunately I was able to touch out at the end and then get TfL to sort out the issue. Unfortunately if you are checked en-route then you are travelling without a ticket or validated smart card. That is a strict liability offence where there is no need to show intent. You really need to grasp this and go forward accepting that you were wrong. If you don't things could get much worse.

At the end of my journey I was charged the full fare and travel card for my journeys taken.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. When you touched out you will have been charged an incomplete journey charge. This doesn't count towards any capping (Oyster equivalent of a travelcard) and more importantly for Southeastern, doesn't give them their share of your fare.

I had my meeting booked up for sometime to go to Wimbledon for my whole journey yesterday would have charged me a travel card.

Very unlikely. If you went via Herne Hill then the peak single is £3.60 and another peak single on the return would still leave you well short of the £12.00 zone 1-6 cap. Remember, it isn't a day travelcard on Oyster.

Why was I not offered to pay for my fare?

The previous times were when I did not buy a ticket many many years ago.

Sadly this has not helped your situation. Had you not had previous issues then you might have been offered a penalty fare, but because you have been in trouble before the RPI decided to go straight to reporting you for prosecution. If it really was many many years ago then the prosecutions department may be more lenient, but you will have a harder job getting a favourable outcome. I know this is not what you want to hear, but it is a realistic appraisal of the situation.

Why would I try put myself in this situation I would not know how much that would save me by doing a non tapping in.

I doubt that they are concerned by how much you may or may not have saved. By not touching in you have deprived them (SE) of the revenue for your journey. That is a simple fact.

I have spoken to telephone support at South Eastern to see their procedures of what is to happen. I offered to pay for my journey that I did not tap in by ACCIDENT and he did not want to accept that.

I can't stress this enough. It doesn't matter whether it was deliberate or an accident. You simply were travelling without a ticket or validated smart card. That is all. Offence committed.

Thank you. I would accept if I tried to do this on purpose but I did not intentionally go out to fare avaid and the whole journey st the end of the day was paid for.

Once again, intent is irrelevant for a strict liability offence, which this is. And SE have not received the money for your journey from TfL. When you top up an Oyster card you are just transfering the money from your wallet (or card) to TfL. It is held electronically on your Oyster card. It is earmarked for travel, but only gets used when you touch in and out at each end of the journey. At that point TfL will transfer the fare to the operators who are entitled to it - in this case Southeastern and Thameslink. What you have done is the equivalent of transferring some cash from your wallet to your back pocket with the intention of saving it so you could buy a ticket. You then forgot to buy the ticket. An RPI would treat this in the same way - you'd be asked to pay a penalty fare, or in the case of having previous issues, be reported for prosecution. You could take the cash out of your back pocket and offer to pay the fare but it is unlikely that it would be accepted.

Where to go from here. You will have to wait for the letter from Southeastern to arrive, which may take several weeks. This will hopefully be an intention to prosecute letter which will be asking for your side of the story. In your response you will have to succinctly express remorse for your mistake, show that you understand how much of a problem fare evasion is, offer to pay the fare and their costs in invesitgating it so far. You would also be wise to refer to your previous misdemeanors and explain that you had learnt your lesson re tickets but mistakenly confused topping up with touching in. I hope that you are right when you say that the previous issues were many years ago.

It is possible that they may go straight to issuing a summons, or may reject your offer to pay the fare plus costs and issue a summons then. In either case please do feel able to come back here and seek further assistance. There are members here who will help you mitigate the outcome, as long as you have embraced the content of this post (and just about every other response in the thread).

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

As you admit to the offence why do you think you should get legal aid, particularly as you also admit to being a repeat offender?

A bit harsh I think: legal advice is also relevant in terms of the mitigation that the OP might put forward if the case does go to court, sentencing and any appeal that might follow (although it does seem to me much more likely that the TOC will follow an out of court settlement route for this one).

 

[SparkA]

Thank you Gerard and everyone's comments.

I have spoken to an ex rail enforcement officer. Who feels that it was circumstances should have been considered. The fact that I offered payment even though I would have been penalised anyway for not touching in at the end of my journey. I need to write my events and explain the situation and hope that I don't get a criminal record for a mistake, even though the majority of everyone feel strongly then I done it on purpose and the book should be thrown at me.

If it does go to court I have found a company that specialise in supporting people in my situation .

 

[Haywain]

A bit harsh I think: legal advice is also relevant in terms of the mitigation that the OP might put forward if the case does go to court, sentencing and any appeal that might follow (although it does seem to me much more likely that the TOC will follow an out of court settlement route for this one).

The question was about legal aid, not legal advice. They are different things.

 

[Haywain]

Thank you Gerard and everyone's comments.

I have spoken to an ex rail enforcement officer. Who feels that it was circumstances should have been considered. The fact that I offered payment even though I would have been penalised anyway for not touching in at the end of my journey. I need to write my events and explain the situation and hope that I don't get a criminal record for a mistake, even though the majority of everyone feel strongly then I done it on purpose and the book should be thrown at me.

If it does go to court I have found a company that specialise in supporting people in my situation .

I don't think anyone has said you did it on purpose, but there was no guarantee that you would be "penalised anyway" as you may have finished your journey at an ungated station and not touched out. You need to accept that whether by intention or accident your failure to touch in meant you had no ticket, and if you managed not to touch in you could just as easily have managed not to touch out.

 

[SparkA]

Okay, but I have no intention of ripping off the system, I started at chelsfield and finish at chelsfield, surely it charge me fir a travel card that day? To get honest I don't really know, wish I bought a simple travel card with the total money I had on the card.

I offered to pay for my fare too.