Prosecution from Southern trains

[ConcernedTok]

I've got myself into a difficult situation and I'm now concerned of the impact it will have on getting a criminal record. A lot of my work is currently in the states and any criminal conviction will put my job at risk, and subsequently getting another job.

I have been naive and silly and reading these forums, it looks like I'm in a lot of trouble.

I was stopped at Epsom Station last week for not having a valid ticket. I don't live in London but am there for work very regularly, but I rarely use the trains and this was my first time travelling the route (Victoria to Epsom).

I had tapped in with my credit card as I normally do, then was stopped as I went to tap out. The situation escalated into an argument with the station staff and I used poor language towards them (their attitude in general was rude and patronising, but I understand that this is not an excuse). They repeatedly asked for my address, I indicated that I was willing to give my works address (they responded by saying "what happens if you get sacked from your work" which exemplifies the conversation we were having).

This escalated to it no longer being a talk of a fine, but prosecution (I only understand the situation now after research on these forums). I also only now understand now that is a legal requirement that an address is needed (this was not indicated or explained properly at the time).

I gave my old flat number for my address, which will constitute a false address, but eventually corrected this along with my confirmation from my drivers licence.

It took me a week of phoning around the train companies (I didn't even know I was on a southern train) and varies penalty collection companies to understand what has actually happened, and following these forums, I now understand the position of these officers at the station and the trouble I am in and expecting a letter of prosecution to come.

I have no intention of making excuse for my behaviour in any response to this letter. But for the purposes of this post, I was full of the cold and had considered cancelling my meetings. The blasé attitude of the station staff and lack of explanation didn't help either, although I need to accept that it is my responsibility to know correct tickets required for my journeys.

When the expected letter comes through, what is my best approach to dealing with the issue and trying to avoid court? Accept full responsibility and apologise profusely for my actions and behaviour and plead for an out of court settlement? Is there any other course of action I should consider?

 

[Haywain]

I had tapped in with my credit card as I normally do, then was stopped as I went to tap out.

Just for clarification, are you saying that you tapped out at Epsom and the gate didn't open? As Epsom is outside the Oyster (and contactless) zones this would be the case. Were you then issued a penalty fare? This would have resolved the situation, albeit at some expense, but if you declined that or acted in a way that suggested you would (as it reads above) then your details would be taken and you would be reported for potential prosecution. All you can do for now is wait for a letter, and then:

Accept full responsibility and apologise profusely for my actions and behaviour and plead for an out of court settlement?

 

[ConcernedTok]

Just for clarification, are you saying that you tapped out at Epsom and the gate didn't open? As Epsom is outside the Oyster (and contactless) zones this would be the case. Were you then issued a penalty fare? This would have resolved the situation, albeit at some expense, but if you declined that or acted in a way that suggested you would (as it reads above) then your details would be taken and you would be reported for potential prosecution. All you can do for now is wait for a letter, and then:

Yes, I went to tap out and the barrier didn't open.

Without any explanation, I was told that was a £20 fine, and had to ask why. Again, and no excuses as to my own behaviour, but the attitude and approach of the station staff is crazy. When I was there, I saw another older lady stopped, with a look of confusion and no idea what to do.

I do regret my own actions immensely. However, what concerns me is that if I reply without highlighting the the situation between myself and the staff seemed to escalate at a personal level, then if they refuse my response and plead for out of court settlement, none of that will be recorded. But I also don't want to reply to a notice of prosecution with a bunch of excuses and passing the buck.

 

[Stigy]

The best thing you can do is await their correspondence. Unfortunately it’s very much your word against theirs in terms of their behaviour towards you, and you’re right in that it’ll look like you’re trying to make excuses. Don’t forget, they hear this all the time.

Unfortunately in supplying an incorrect address, you have albeit inadvertently, set yourself up for two charges, contrary to a.5(3) of the regulation of railways act 1889 (fare evasion), which could result in a harsher penalty than if you were reported for a railway Byelaw offence (the likely charge had you given your details corrrctky in the first place). Then there’s the language, depending on what was said by you, you could be looking at a separate Byelaw charge for this too. All added together, they would be less likely to settle out of court than if you held your hands up in the first place.

 

[najaB]

When the expected letter comes through, what is my best approach to dealing with the issue and trying to avoid court? Accept full responsibility and apologise profusely for my actions and behaviour and plead for an out of court settlement?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[ConcernedTok]

In terms of the language, the first man said "I have the opportunity to use my discretion when I want to but what makes you special?" which was when I replied "so you're just being a d**khead then"

He then replied"I can do and say a lot worse to you"

As I said, the situation got relatively personal. I have issues with giving people my address (and I include a simple email address in this) without explanation of how it is being used due to how data is used by companies these days. The attendant never explained to me that it was legally required.

 

[Stigy]

In terms of the language, the first man said "I have the opportunity to use my discretion when I want to but what makes you special?" which was when I replied "so you're just being a d**khead then"

He then replied"I can do and say a lot worse to you"

As I said, the situation got relatively personal. I have issues with giving people my address (and I include a simple email address in this) without explanation of how it is being used due to how data is used by companies these days. The attendant never explained to me that it was legally required.

It doesn’t sound like the staff member was very helpful, but as I said, it’s your word against there’s and it could look like you’re ‘throwing stones’. If all you said was that, I doubt they’d seek to prosecute you for the language (heat of the moment and all that), however, it’ll make them less likely to be willing to talk about it and potentially settle in sure. You can only really do as others have advised and apologise profusely.

I know it happens, I’ve seen staff antagonise situations before myself. A little explanation goes a long way.

 

[js1000]

Never abuse/swear at an RPI. It'll allow them to keep any body camera footage beyond the end of their shift if it becomes personal.

Wait until you receive the letter. Generally, offering to pay the fine and demonstrating co-operation and contrition should sort it out. If it is a first time offence they will accept your apology and warn you not to do so again.

 

[Haywain]

I do regret my own actions immensely. However, what concerns me is that if I reply without highlighting the the situation between myself and the staff seemed to escalate at a personal level, then if they refuse my response and plead for out of court settlement, none of that will be recorded. But I also don't want to reply to a notice of prosecution with a bunch of excuses and passing the buck.

I think you now need to deal with the two issues separately. You will receive a letter regarding potential prosecution in due course, and you should deal with that as set out above - apology, remorse, request to settle. You can, in the meantime, write to Southern at their customer relations address about the attitude and behaviour of their staff, and I would recommend including in this an apology for your own behaviour - if nothing else it removes any response to your comments being about your behaviour. No doubt someone will be along soon to say that Southern's customer relations are useless, or similar, but you don't have a better channel for commenting about staff.

 

[ConcernedTok]

I had no intention of not paying the correct fare, and even on the way out, I asked if I could pay the required fare which I was told no.

 

[najaB]

I had no intention of not paying the correct fare, and even on the way out, I asked if I could pay the required fare which I was told no.

Intent is determined by action. You didn't avail yourself of the ticket purchasing facilities at your origin station, and attempted to pass the barriers and leave the station at Epsom without paying the fare due.

This is enough to constitute intent in the law.

 

[ConcernedTok]

I have tried to pull together a letter to send to Southern Trains - Could someone with experience have a read of it and suggest any amendments? Would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Haywain]

I have tried to pull together a letter to send to Southern Trains - Could someone with experience have a read of it and suggest any amendments? Would be greatly appreciated.

It's far too long. Keep to the detail of the offence - tried to use contactless, didn't know but apologise, sorry you did, won't do it again, please settle. As I mentioned before, the actual interaction between you and the RPI is a matter to deal with separately.

 

[ConcernedTok]

It's far too long. Keep to the detail of the offence - tried to use contactless, didn't know but apologise, sorry you did, won't do it again, please settle. As I mentioned before, the actual interaction between you and the RPI is a matter to deal with separately.

Thanks for the quick reply. Just to note, this isn't in response to a notice of prosecution as I've not received this yet, but for the letter to Southern. Do I then remove anything to do with asking to settle out of court?

 

[londonboi]

Thanks for the quick reply. Just to note, this isn't in response to a notice of prosecution as I've not received this yet, but for the letter to Southern. Do I then remove anything to do with asking to settle out of court?

I would say so yes as others have said your best keeping the 2 incidents separate.
Also don’t expect a quick reply as it’s the Christmas season they may be closed over the season or have reduced staff working so don’t worry to much if you don’t get a quick reply.

 

[ConcernedTok]

I would say so yes as others have said your best keeping the 2 incidents separate.
Also don’t expect a quick reply as it’s the Christmas season they may be closed over the season or have reduced staff working so don’t worry to much if you don’t get a quick reply.

Excellent, thank you. Is it best to post this or is an email good enough in this instance?

 

[ConcernedTok]

As another question, I'm genuinely stressed and scared of getting a criminal conviction for this. I've never had anything like this against me before. What's the likelihood of this being taken to court from past experience? I'm an idiot for my actions

 

[londonboi]

As another question, I'm genuinely stressed and scared of getting a criminal conviction for this. I've never had anything like this against me before. What's the likelihood of this being taken to court from past experience? I'm an idiot for my actions

Tbh I am no expert but I imagine they deal with this sort of thing on a case by case basis.

Try not worry about it over Christmas and new year just enjoy yourself. They have up to 6 months to get back to you so don’t worry over it.

 

[najaB]

What's the likelihood of this being taken to court from past experience?

It's in the TOCs best interest to settle rather than prosecute, so as long as you engage with them and demonstrate genuine remorse then the odds are in your favour.

 

[ConcernedTok]

Thank you for all your input guys, it helps a great deal. I've sent the letter to the Southern Trains complaints department removing the bit about settlement. I will see if I get a response at all.

 

[Llanigraham]

I would suggest your letter is still too long.

 

[island]

Sounds like you failed the attitude test. You could have closed the matter for £20 (penalty fare for attempting to use contactless beyond the last stop where it is valid), but it’s now escalated and is going to cost you several multiples of that amount.

As mentioned above you need to wait for them to get in touch with you and then reply, concisely, asking if they will accept the fare and a contribution to the costs they’ve incurred in lieu of prosecution.

 

[najaB]

This now worries me again as I have emailed the letter attached above but removing the line about wanting to settle out of court. Should I not have sent it??

The two matters - the prosecution and your complaint - will likely be dealt with by completely separate teams. It is unlikely (though not impossible) that one will affect the other.

 

[talltim]

Intent is determined by action. You didn't avail yourself of the ticket purchasing facilities at your origin station, and attempted to pass the barriers and leave the station at Epsom without paying the fare due.

This is enough to constitute intent in the law.

Not sure you can say the second part is true.

 

[ConcernedTok]

There was no need for me to try and "short fare" because my travel was all expensed anyway, I stood to gain nothing.

I understand it from what others on here have said, thieving is how the railway will see it through the bylaws and likely this how the attendants saw it at the time. And particularly with me not wanting to give my address to them, they may have thought it was some kind of repeat offender.

Was an honest mistake of never having been to Epsom station before and wrongly assuming that my credit card would work as it has done on all my other travel in London over the last year, including more recent trips to Gatwick where there are signs explicitly saying that contact less can now be used on the entry gate. Also, not knowing that they legally can ask for your address details and not having that explained at the time.

 

[tom73]

Oyster and Contactless WILL be extended to Epsom from March 2019. It is not outside the realms of possibility that someone who uses rail only occasionally might believe that the facility was already in place and were therefore innocent of any intentional wrongdoing. On the other hand, Epsom Downs is valid for Oyster and Contactless. It would be an easy matter for a confused passenger to get the two - Epsom Downs and Epsom - mixed up in his mind.

 

[ConcernedTok]

Also, wrongly so, I didn't consider oyster and contactless to be the same thing considering the way in which I use contactless everyday. I consider it a means of making a purchase and in the case of underground and rail travel in London, the purchase price is simply calculated upon exit. I think the messaging at Gatwick says something along the lines of "you don't need to queue for a ticket, you can use contactless" as well so, again wrongly, assumed this was the same for all trains around London to make things easier for passengers.

I suppose if I had been boarding the train at Epsom first, I would have tried to beep in at the barrier and then found out that I couldn't and be informed of my mistake by the attendants and explained why this was the case and then pointed towards the ticket machines to buy a ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Also, wrongly so, I didn't consider oyster and contactless to be the same thing considering the way in which I use contactless everyday. I consider it a means of making a purchase and in the case of underground and rail travel in London, the purchase price is simply calculated upon exit. I think the messaging at Gatwick says something along the lines of "you don't need to queue for a ticket, you can use contactless" as well so, again wrongly, assumed this was the same for all trains around London to make things easier for passengers.

I suppose if I had been boarding the train at Epsom first, I would have tried to beep in at the barrier and then found out that I couldn't and be informed of my mistake by the attendants and explained why this was the case and then pointed towards the ticket machines to buy a ticket.

Indeed: it's an honest mistake and I don't think any accusation of dishonesty or intent to avoid payment could ever be made out in such a circumstance. However, a Penalty Fare or Byelaw prosecution may nevertheless be procedurally correct (even if immoral).

 

[Surreytraveller]

The train companies need to do something to make it less complicated when using contactless. If using Oyster, it is fair enough that the person using it has made reasonable enquiries as to where they can use it, as you've physically got to obtain an Oystercard The same cannot be said of contactless, and anyone can walk of the street and tap in without having had any opportunity or reasonable expectation of finding out what you can do after tapping in. The fact you've tapped in should prove that you have not intended to avoid paying any fare in my opinion.

 

[najaB]

The fact you've tapped in should prove that you have not intended to avoid paying any fare in my opinion.

But does it demonstrate intent to pay the correct fare?