Prosecution

[rbo]

so you believe the below letter to be satisfactory:

"Dear Sir/Madam,


I am writing in response to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute dated 13/08/24 I wish to explain the circumstances of the incident on 08/08/24 and respectfully request your consideration of my case.


On the day in question, I was on my way home from work and foolishly purchased a child's ticket.


I am deeply sorry for what has happened. I understand the importance of having a valid ticket for the entire journey, and I sincerely regret this decision.


This incident has taught me the importance of ensuring that I have the correct ticket before traveling. I assure you that I have learned from this experience and will be sure to never do this in the future.


I would be grateful to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare for the journey as well as any administrative costs incurred by the train company in dealing with this matter.


Yours sincerely,"


thanks in advance

or shall i add - On the day in question, I was on my way home from work and foolishly purchased a child's ticket on my Southeastern journey?

Letter looks much better but it won't make any difference: You state that you were on your way home from work. Do you (really) live near Waterloo East and work in Plumstead?

sorry what do you mean by the letter looks better but wont make any difference??

 

[Islineclear3_1]

or shall i add - On the day in question, I was on my way home from work and foolishly purchased a child's ticket on my Southeastern journey?


sorry what do you mean by the letter looks better but wont make any difference??

Southeastern won't care if you were on your way home, or on your way to work but your edited letter looks much better

 

[alholmes]

Whilst not directly related to your letter (which looks fine, by the way), is there any reason why you’re buying separate tickets Thames Ditton - Waterloo and Waterloo East - Plumstead? One ticket for the whole journey, or using contactless for the whole journey, will probably be cheaper - depends on time of day you’re travelling, of course.

 

[antharro]

One further edit.

I would be grateful to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare for the journey as well as any administrative costs incurred by the train company in dealing with this matter.

I have never liked "I am willing to pay...". You're asking the TOC to let you off with a financial settlement, without going to court or getting a criminal record. What you're willing to pay is irrelevant; you'll pay whatever amount they propose to make this go away. Therefore...

I would be most grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter out of court, through a financial settlement or however SouthEastern feels is most appropriate.

 

[Greyman1]

and if when interbiewd by the railway staff i said i did not realise it was a childs ticket... if i now admit in my response to knowing and it being a foolish decision to buy it etc will i get penalised further for lying in the first palce and saying i didn't know it was a child's one?

It doesn't really matter what you said at the time. They know that you actively have to select a child ticket at the point of sale. It is programed to default to an adult.
They will also look at your previous purchases and see if you have done this before. Trainline keep detailed records, guest or account.
Answer honestly and they will hopefully deal with it swiftly and without any type of prosecution. Just be up front and business like.

 

[rbo]

will they always look into previous purchase history? And if so, it’ll only be my purchase history for that rail company won’t it so southeastern?

 

[WesternLancer]

will they always look into previous purchase history? And if so, it’ll only be my purchase history for that rail company won’t it so southeastern?

You should assume they will look into purchase history and they can access all ticket retailers data if they wish.

There is no GDPR restriction because this is covered by powers relating to the investigation of crime.

So if they do offer you a settlement you need to prepare yourself for that to include them asking for a sum that covers all the instances where they believe you have bought child fares for your own use.

 

[rbo]

a previous member said 'The good news is that Southeastern has a reputation for rarely playing hardball for offences like this'... do they also have a reputation of just delaing with the incident at hand or are they known for digging deeper?

 

[Hadders]

Southeastern are 'better' to deal with in that they will normally offer an out of court settlement. You should assume that they will research your online ticket purchasing history and factor this into the settlement cost.

Had you have been stopped by a Transport for London member of staff then you'd almost certainly be taking a trip to the Magistrates Court.

 

[rbo]

ok thank you. fingers crossed i get offered out of court settlement

 

[WesternLancer]

a previous member said 'The good news is that Southeastern has a reputation for rarely playing hardball for offences like this'... do they also have a reputation of just delaing with the incident at hand or are they known for digging deeper?

They all dig deeper. Ask yourself why wouldn’t they now they have caught you.

That comment will have referred to the likelihood of prosecution vs settlement.

They will know that for most deliberate fare evasion it’s statistically improbable that you get caught on the first time you do it. So it makes sense to them to check for past instances. They are not daft. If you have left digital fingerprints of other child tickets bought you need to assume they will look and can easily find them. Or indeed other easy to detect evasions.

Sorry if this isn’t what you hoped for.

 

[rbo]

They all dig deeper. Ask yourself why wouldn’t they now they have caught you.

That comment will have referred to the likelihood of prosecution vs settlement.

They will know that for most deliberate fare evasion it’s statistically improbable that you get caught on the first time you do it. So it makes sense to them to check for past instances. They are not daft. If you have left digital fingerprints of other child tickets bought you need to assume they will look and can easily find them. Or indeed other easy to detect evasions.

Sorry if this isn’t what you hoped for.

what do you mean by 'that commment will have referred to the likelihood of prosecution vs settlement'?

 

[WesternLancer]

what do you mean by 'that commment will have referred to the likelihood of prosecution vs settlement'?

I mean their propensity to opt for one or the other. As Hadders just posted southeaster more likely to settle than TfL who never settle and prosecute in almost all cases.

 

[rbo]

ok thanks! as i said fingers crossed!

 

[WesternLancer]

What you probably need to do at this stage is make a private record for yourself of how many times you have evaded and work out what the full Anytime adult fare was for each and every time. Then calculate how much that is. Going back years if you have been buying child tickets for a long time. Make no allowance for the child tickets you paid for.

That is the sort of sum they could well ask you for and you need to be prepared for them to want payment in full and in 14 days of asking or less. Otherwise they could proceed to court prosecution if they wish. Payment plans to pay it over time seem to be rare.

 

[rbo]

would there also be a fine associated with each ticket or would it generally just be the cost of each fare as an adult ticket?

 

[WesternLancer]

would there also be a fine associated with each ticket or would it generally just be the cost of each fare as an adult ticket?

For a settlement they usually want fares owed (at the highest price they can charge eg Anytime) plus an ‘Admin fee’ for investigating it all. Typically circa £150 is often what people report.

If it went to court it would be different and relates to sentencing guidelines for court fine, court costs, victim surcharge etc. plus criminal record.

 

[rbo]

ok thank you for your help

 

[WesternLancer]

ok thank you for your help

I think it is correct to say that IF it went to court they would only be prosecuting for the one occasion they caught you (because they have the proof / evidence they need to secure a conviction for that) but the costs for you can add up even with a conviction for one instance - other threads have the formula the court would use that you can find.

Whereas if they are settling and want past evasion paid back then the railway company could get more money from you - because a court fine goes to government not to the railway - so if you are co-operating with them they have something of an incentive to offer you a settlement - although never guaranteed that they will offer one, but depending on the level of evasion they want repaid an out of court settlement could in theory cost you more then the collected court fines / costs etc.

However, the settlement avoids the criminal record, and the criminal record might have other financial consequences longer term for you (eg if it impacts on your employment or jobs you may want to apply for etc) so for vast majority of people who come here for advice obtaining a settlement and avoiding a criminal record can be a high priority for those reasons. It's not something most people want against their name after all, if it can be avoided.

As you may know a Waterloo East to Plumstead Anytime Single is £6.70 so this is the sum they may seek for each journey where you had a child ticket (this is more expensive than Pay as you go / Oyster or presumably a season ticket.

If they do seek out previous evasion we have seen examples of the railway company sending a spreadsheet of all the occasions their records lead them to to believe you have evaded the correct fare, so it's possible they may do something like that if you are co-operating with them.

 

[Greyman1]

will they always look into previous purchase history? And if so, it’ll only be my purchase history for that rail company won’t it so southeastern?

Yes, they could pass any other offending on to the relevant TOC if evasion is clear to see on another operator.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, they could pass any other offending on to the relevant TOC if evasion is clear to see on another operator.

But that is not how TOCs operate in this field, they deal with anything they find acting on behalf of all TOCs.

 

[rbo]

Hi all,

I sent my response off on the 16th of Auguts and still have not heard anything back.

Is this normal?

 

[Titfield]

Hi all,

I sent my response off on the 16th of Auguts and still have not heard anything back.

Is this normal?

Yes it is usually 2 -3 weeks depending on the volume of work going through and how quickly they get responses from the online retailers to queries re your online booking activity.

as it is the school summer holidays and a bank holiday it may be slightly longer.

 

[Greyman1]

But that is not how TOCs operate in this field, they deal with anything they find acting on behalf of all TOCs.

They will in certain circumstances.

 

[AlterEgo]

They will in certain circumstances.

Can you think of a case here where details have been passed on, instead of being dealt with all at once by the "catching" TOC?

 

[30907]

Can you think of a case here where details have been passed on, instead of being dealt with all at once by the "catching" TOC?

I can't, and I've been around rather longer.
The only circumstance I can think of (from a recent thread involving Stratford) is where LUL(tube) and a mainline TOC are involved because they operate under different byelaws - but I don't think we know this has happened.

As far as the OP is concerned, we can assume that SE will investigate for all TOCs.