Public perception of railways

[HandsOffEngine]

I love the railways generally, but I don't love the current railways - they are run terribly.

 

[WirralLine]

Like many of us on here - I have a passion for the railway as a whole. I'm a guard, and try my best to give a good customer experience because I want people to want to travel on a mode I care about. It could be something truly great but there doesn't seem to be the interest from the powers at be.

A good example - a few weeks ago I was travelling from Wirral to Winsford. Got to Crewe for the 0930 ish LNR service - showing delayed. No information at all via PA or staff, so I checked RTT and could see it had been held at Smethwick, along with a few others. I asked a few friends who work for various TOCs and was told trespassers on the line near Coseley.

In the mean time the 1000 ish Liverpool service was running on time as it diverted via Bescot. Unfortunately this one doesn't stop at Winsford but flies straight through. If I personally was working that train I would have requested special stop orders for Winsford/Hartford/Acton Bridge to save people waiting an hour - it was the same TOC. The guard could well have asked and been told no, but i don't know.

The 0930 eventually got cancelled at Crewe well over an hour late IIRC.

I was then having to wait for the 1030 ish from Crewe - which was around 25 late.

Winsford is only 1 stop away from Crewe, but a very long bus journey and the bus wasn't due until 10, so it was still quicker to wait for the delayed 1030 service. When I eventually arrived probably 60 people got off, so not exactly a light load either.

It's very frustrating when I could find out through friends what was going on, and figure things out myself using a mix of Traksy and RTT - but the regular punter was just left in the dark with an hour and a half delay for those stations.

 

[Yew]

Trains in general get a bad press in this country for reliability. A family friend does a lot of long distance travelling (with a van - not practical to do via public transport) and it is common for 3hour journeys to take double that. It is very rare to get delayed more than an hour or two on the train. I do cardiff london most weeks for nearly 2 years, with the GWML in its less than reliabile condition and even still I've only had 2 delay repays over 2hours - one for a fatality, one for infrastructure problems. If I drove this (which I would never do) I would expect 2hour+ delays most evenings.

A delay in your vehicle, and you are still in your comfortable vehicle - a delay on the railways, and you are not only delayed, but also might not be able to get a seat.

That's before we even consider the systemic overcrowding on some routes, which has been known about for over a decade, and nothing has been done to address it.

 

[GordonT]

Certain areas of BR, usually the ones controlled by Chris Green and others like him, thought that customer care was something to be invested in rather than a soft target for cuts. One example - highly visible welcome hosts/hostesses in bright red jackets at major stations selected for their personable nature and communication skills as well as their knowledge of the station and railway operations. The best of these people would always be proactive in looking out for bemused or anxious looking customers to offer assistance or information.
Nowadays the "Blackpool North" prison door welcome approach seems more in evidence.

 

[Western Sunset]

What strikes me are the many parallels between how the railway treats its customers, and how the Post Office treats its sub-postmasters.
The PO has just produced a new strategic plan for its future - currently, it's with the Govt awaiting their approval.

The PO strategy and direction is twofold:
1. Creating a new deal for postmasters
2. "Reverse the polarity", putting postmasters at the centre/heart of things

Maybe this is what the railways need to do in its relationship with their users.

 

[johntea]

Cost is an interesting one as book in advance (and follow the 'rules') it can be quite hard to beat for example a £15 fare from Yorkshire to London (coach comes close but at the expense of over double the journey time, and I suppose if you had a car full of passengers each chipping in but someone has to drive and find somewhere to park!)

But should you dare want to 'turn up and go' or need to travel during the peak forget it...

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I don’t think the OP’s experience over his trip was particularly unlucky. It sounds like they did pretty well tbh. Better than I’d expect from the railway.

 

[Par]

Cost is an interesting one as book in advance (and follow the 'rules') it can be quite hard to beat for example a £15 fare from Yorkshire to London (coach comes close but at the expense of over double the journey time, and I suppose if you had a car full of passengers each chipping in but someone has to drive and find somewhere to park!)

But should you dare want to 'turn up and go' or need to travel during the peak forget it...

Quite, Advance fares can be excellent value, just today I’ve booked 1st Class Advances from Edinburgh to York for £30 each, but as you state, just turn up during the peak and buy say an Anytime return (route Any Permitted) from Manchester to London at £369.40 (standard class) and the general public (and the press, particularly the press) reel in horror and start quoting destinations you can reach by air for the same price.

Bargain fares are there to be had if you have the luxury of being able to book in advance, which I do realise not everyone can.

 

[DelW]

I agree the railway has created a hostile environment that, from a customers perspective, seems to be ran by thugs, who seem to have zero humility or imagination and treat customers, who pay their wages, as cash cows.

I really think that the railway is at risk of doing itself out of trade, as most people I know genuinely fear travelling by train in the UK due to the attitude of staff, and unreliability. If this happens then I think the railway only has itself to blame.

I'd been reading this thread on a train to Woking, then Woking station provided just such an example:

My train came in on p5*, meaning I had to walk along the platform, past the down side exit, to get to the footbridge to cross to the town (up) side. There was a group of passengers queuing at that exit, with four "security" staff standing behind them, partly blocking the way past. As I went to squeeze past, one of those staff moved to block my way, making me step left to avoid walking into him. That meant I put one foot about 6" beyond the yellow line, giving him the chance to shout "Stay behind the yellow line" at me. I was tempted to turn round and point out that I'd only stepped over it because he'd blocked me from walking within it, but with four of them I wasn't willing to risk a confrontation.

The stationary train I'd just left was still in the platform, and I was no closer than about 3 feet to it, for a single step. I had no doubt that he moved deliberately to give himself an excuse to shout at me. Why does the railway employ these aggressive thugs? I presume they're usually nightclub bouncers or similar.

*On a lighter note, I think it's the first time I've ever been on an *up* train that used Woking p5. There was a NR MPV on one of the running lines just south of the station, which might have been the reason.

 

[Krokodil]

@WirralLine one thing which irritates me as a guard is that I end up having to do Control's thinking for them. When there are alterations to services the first thing they should be doing is thinking "how will this affect the passengers and how can we mitigate this?"

For example: morning train running 30mins late so decision taken to run it non-stop for a portion of its journey. Conveniently there is a service operated by another TOC which is ideally placed to mop up the passengers from the missed stops and deposit them at the interchange from where they can rejoin their own train. So has ticket acceptance been asked for? "Oh that's a good idea" was the response I got when I rang to suggest it. I wasn't even on duty.

Likewise when there was an all-day line closure due to flooding. The obvious alternative route for many of the passengers involved other operators. As soon as the closure became known about at the start of the day they should have been phoning around to agree ticket acceptance. Instead it took me ringing up several hours later to prompt them.

Similar issues when trains are terminated short - the automatic response when turning a train back at Bangor for example should be to consider adding the request stops as additional calls for the following train.

 

[jfollows]

The railways appear to be run for the wrong reasons.

Your train from Crewe to Chester is cancelled, because it makes sense to the railways, because the knock-on effects are less, for whatever reason, but you end up being significantly delayed as a result.

There are reasons for this, but they don't help you.

You then hear of someone being taken to court for under-paying by £1.90.

So next time you drive and you're not messed around.

It's mainly not because things go wrong, but when they do the perception is that they're handled badly. I always said this about my professional life - it's not that things go wrong but that when they do they're handled competently. Most good companies manage this, the bad ones go out of business. But the "railway" handles it badly but carries on still. It's depressing.

Until someone replaces the heads of the people in charge, it won't improve.

 

[lookapigeon]

At a slightly lower level of annoyance, there's the never-ending safety and security announcements on trains and stations (and signs on stations - GWR's fayourite at present is a large sign at the top of stairs stating "ACCIDENT BLACKSPOT, please hold the handrail"). These all help to create the impression that using the railway is inherently risky. The continental experience is completely different. I used a SWR train just from Exeter St. Davids to Central yesterday and there was no "welcome to SWR" type announcement, just warnings about having the right ticket and what would happen if you tried to use the wrong one, and not tolerating assaults on staff (not that they should of course but is it really necessary to "welcome" passengers in this way?)

Far too much verbal diarrhoea - SWR is especially guilty of this. Endless crap about 61016, looking at the safety posters in the carriage, being fined if you don't have the correct ticket, repeating the stops for each station along the journey and at the station. No wonder everyone tunes out or just puts headphones in - it is not a pleasant experience, and any key information (such as if the train divides at station X) can get missed.

Take a lesson from the continent, and have the basic 'approaching station X', upon arrival, this is station X, next station is Y. Streamlined and gets the pertinent information across, without the excess verbiage.
I can't imagine the guards particularly are fond of reading war and peace out via the tannoy either.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Nobody seems to have mentioned safety. Delays and cancellations are often the result of a high level of risk-minimising. On the roads there are several fatal accidents most days but motorists seem happy to take the risk. 29,643 people were killed or seriously injured on UK roads in 2023 but this is perceived to be a normal everyday phenomenon. On the other hand Britain's railways are among the safest in the world.

Travelling from Kendal to London on Tuesday my train was terminated at Lancaster because of a fatality at Bay Horse. RRBs were rapidly summoned and we were soon on our way to Preston. On the M6 we passed an accident where an agricultural trailer had overturned in the northbound fast lane but traffic was flowing past it with minor delay.

Can you imagine the M6 being closed in both directions for several hours because someone had been struck by a car? Or if a train had overturned on one track but trains were still running on the remaining lines?

The safety regimes on the roads and railways are completely different. Train tickets are expensive and delays occur, but your chances of arriving safe and well are far higher by rail.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Nobody seems to have mentioned safety. Delays and cancellations are often the result of a high level of risk-minimising. On the roads there are several fatal accidents most days but motorists seem happy to take the risk. 29,643 people were killed or seriously injured on UK roads in 2023 but this is perceived to be a normal everyday phenomenon. On the other hand Britain's railways are among the safest in the world.

Travelling from Kendal to London on Tuesday my train was terminated at Lancaster because of a fatality at Bay Horse. RRBs were rapidly summoned and we were soon on our way to Preston. On the M6 we passed an accident where an agricultural trailer had overturned in the northbound fast lane but traffic was flowing past it with minor delay.

Can you imagine the M6 being closed in both directions for several hours because someone had been struck by a car? Or if a train had overturned on one track but trains were still running on the remaining lines?

The safety regimes on the roads and railways are completely different. Train tickets are expensive and delays occur, but your chances of arriving safe and well are far higher by rail.

There is of course a different culture of safety on the railways that does go to the extreme sometimes but there's also far less space to work than on roads. This also goes back to the totally different attitude as well, someone hit on the road does close the road but all the vehicles queue until it's re opened, on the railway trains are cancelled and capacity lost so not only are passengers delayed, they are on packed trains or worse can't get on the train home. It's a very different experience from sitting in the warm car listening to the radio.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the question of cost and affordability into the mix.

I hear this argument a lot. Trains are too expensive, fares are exorbitant etc. This appears to be at odds with booming numbers of leisure, off-peak and weekend travellers who choose to take the train when there are plenty of (apparently cheaper) alternatives. Clearly plenty of people are prepared to pay these 'unaffordable' prices which would seem to indicate they aren't really that expensive.

I gave up using the railway system years ago. Despite all of the advertising hype there isn't any customer service, it's ridiculously overpriced, unreliable due to no resilience whatsoever, the ticketing is byzantine in complication and if you misunderstand one of the rules you are criminalised.

This is pure hyperbole I'm afraid.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I hear this argument a lot. Trains are too expensive, fares are exorbitant etc. This appears to be at odds with booming numbers of leisure, off-peak and weekend travellers who choose to take the train when there are plenty of (apparently cheaper) alternatives. Clearly plenty of people are prepared to pay these 'unaffordable' prices which would seem to indicate they aren't really that expensive.



This is pure hyperbole I'm afraid.

There's also the real problem with increasing passengers dramatically by reducing prices, can any of the main lines take a substantial increase in passengers without major investment in infrastructure, most are full and longer trains won't fit in stations.. plus procurement of longer than or more of them isn't an easy task.

 

[Rail Ranger]

A friend recently went by train to Nottingham for the day with a group of friends, none of whom have any connection with the railways. They all bought their tickets separately. He bought an off peak day return from a ticket vending machine. Everyone else in the group bought advance singles in each direction and paid twice as much. It shows how the general public are being hoodwinked. Fares are deemed to be expensive partly because cheaper options are not made clear on websites.

 

[yorkie]

A friend recently went by train to Nottingham for the day with a group of friends, none of whom have any connection with the railways. They all bought their tickets separately. He bought an off peak day return from a ticket vending machine. Everyone else in the group bought advance singles in each direction and paid twice as much. It shows how the general public are being hoodwinked. Fares are deemed to be expensive partly because cheaper options are not made clear on websites.

Perhaps you could recommend our website to them?

Companies like LNER are very keen for people not to use our site, and to use their site; I suspect this is at least partly because they don't want people to take advantage of the deals we find!

 

[Horizon22]

The railways appear to be run for the wrong reasons.

Your train from Crewe to Chester is cancelled, because it makes sense to the railways, because the knock-on effects are less, for whatever reason, but you end up being significantly delayed as a result.

I don’t buy this argument I’m afraid, even though it is often trotted out on these forums by people who ought to know better.

As you’ve said the “knock-on effects are less” which includes hundreds of other passengers who may otherwise may be affected by disruption and no longer are due to actions taken and would instead be complaining about their service.

Incidents happen - it’s inevitable in public transport - and whilst work rightly should be placed on reducing the impact and number of them in the first place, recovering the service is fundamental.

 

[RJ]

I am pro-rail but it’s really hard to defend rail travel to those who are pro-car because stuff goes wrong so frequently.

Delays and missed connections are the main issues but short formations, crowding, not getting a seat and the prices charged for this service, sometimes personal safety as well make it a hard sell.

But, for convenience and speed, the railway definitely has its sweet spots and certain lines are reliable and consistently deliver a pleasant service.


Rail is what I know, I’m used to it. But I took for granted how the railways in London function for the majority of the time and the investment they get. There’s nonsense that goes on elsewhere on the network that could never be allowed in London.

 

[Irascible]

when there are plenty of (apparently cheaper) alternatives.

There are? lucky people then. At least I have a regional flight or two not too far away.

Over-crowded, over-authoritarian, unfriendly, hopelessly unreliable ( I would add uncomfortable, but the nearest line actually isn't. The more reliable one certainly is ). That's the general perception around here.

( I should add that's not my personal perception - I am apparently better at ignoring annoyances than the general population here... )

 

[contrex]

Maybe I've been super lucky, but use my senior railcard a couple of times a week to go to places like Cardiff, Bath, Bradford on Avon, Salisbury, Stroud, Cheltenham, Gloucester, Weston-super-Mare (all GWR), Wigan (XC, Avanti), Exeter, Totnes, Manchester, Birmingham (XC), all from Stapleton Road so GWR to Bristol TM, over the last five-odd years, and I honestly don't recognise these stories. A couple of disruptions I can recall, but heigh-ho... Lovely friendly helpful staff, trains mostly within 3 mins of time, I even like the seats on IEPs...

 

[jfowkes]

About 15 years ago I traveled from Nottingham to Bedford, buying my ticket at the ticket office (I can't remember why I did that, I guess the machines were broken or there was a big queue).

When my ticket was checked on the train turns out I was sold a ticket to Bradford. The price was about the same so I didn't think to check my ticket when I bought it.

The person on the train was very understanding and just charged me the small difference in price and printed me a new return ticket so there wouldn't be any problems going back.

I sometimes wonder if I would get the same treatment today.

 

[jayah]

Like many of us on here - I have a passion for the railway as a whole. I'm a guard, and try my best to give a good customer experience because I want people to want to travel on a mode I care about. It could be something truly great but there doesn't seem to be the interest from the powers at be.

A good example - a few weeks ago I was travelling from Wirral to Winsford. Got to Crewe for the 0930 ish LNR service - showing delayed. No information at all via PA or staff, so I checked RTT and could see it had been held at Smethwick, along with a few others. I asked a few friends who work for various TOCs and was told trespassers on the line near Coseley.

In the mean time the 1000 ish Liverpool service was running on time as it diverted via Bescot. Unfortunately this one doesn't stop at Winsford but flies straight through. If I personally was working that train I would have requested special stop orders for Winsford/Hartford/Acton Bridge to save people waiting an hour - it was the same TOC. The guard could well have asked and been told no, but i don't know.

The 0930 eventually got cancelled at Crewe well over an hour late IIRC.

I was then having to wait for the 1030 ish from Crewe - which was around 25 late.

Winsford is only 1 stop away from Crewe, but a very long bus journey and the bus wasn't due until 10, so it was still quicker to wait for the delayed 1030 service. When I eventually arrived probably 60 people got off, so not exactly a light load either.

It's very frustrating when I could find out through friends what was going on, and figure things out myself using a mix of Traksy and RTT - but the regular punter was just left in the dark with an hour and a half delay for those stations.

The worst I have seen is the policy at certain locations e.g. Chester of dispatching the North Wales stopper ahead of a late running Avanti service, knowing full well it will be held one signal ahead, so that the late running Avanti can go through in front, meaning everybody misses their connection for intermediate stations. The railway doesn't help itself with this sort of treatment, and no it isn't OK to suggest a Delay Repay claim, which TOCs seem to have conditioned themselves into believing cures everything.

 

[158801]

The railway is not perfect but this thread is about the public's "perception" of the railways. And that is where I believe some of the issues lie.

To the majority of people it's "just a train". It's "the railway". They want of the railway things that they wouldn't expect, need or demand from any other organisation or business. Let me give some examples.

A search on a popular hotel booking site shows 1405 available properties for a one night stay in London arriving on 01 December. The first two properties have just two room types the third property listed had 14 options for rooms (double, twin, breakfast included, refundable etc). Taking all of this into account and I've probably got the option for over 5000 different rooms just for a night away. I never see it hear anyone complain that hotels are far too complex and that they need to be simplified.

A search on another website shows 91 options for flights from London to New York travelling out on 01/12 and returning in 08/12. Some are direct others go via the likes of Madrid. A click on one option shows a further 14 choices f I choose that flight. So a simple trip to New York and back has well over 1000 options - yet there's never a call to simplify air travel.

Yet the railway offers two tickets from A to B (anytime and off peak) and people can't cope.

People will openly accept that there are four different companies flying from London to Barcelona but suggest that there are two operators running from Preston to Manchester and it's the most ridiculous thing ever to be said.

How many people turn up for the 11:15 red train and find it's 15 minutes late so just jump on the 11:23 green train - even though they've only got a red train ticket. They wouldn't dream of jumping on easyJet to get home from Barcelona if their Ryanair flight was 30 minutes late. Yet they do on the railway - because it's just a train.


How many people would smoke/vape on a plane but it's a regular occurrence on a train - why ? Because it's only a train.

How many people sit in first class on a plane because there are empty seats?. Yet this is a common argument onboard a train "but there's no one sitting here" (even though there are seats in standard).

In the 1980's / 1990's people would always say " you lot need to be privatised". Now you hear "I'll be glad when you're all nationalised"

Look at the recent strikes over pay. Most people held teachers, doctors etc in much higher regard and much more deserving of a pay rise than someone who works on the railway.

I'll pick on the Trainline - other ticket booking sites are available. It markets itself on being cheap. After much advertising people honestly believe that they can get the best deal by booking on the Trainline. But how does it make people believe that they are the cheapest? Simple. Input a journey from A to B and the Trainline only shows the the cheapest fares for each train. Other fares - including some that may be more appropriate are hidden and you have to visit other screens to get there. The point I'm trying to make is that people are buying the cheapest, not the most appropriate ticket for their journey because the Trainline want you to believe that they are cheaper than everyone else.
Imagine a booking site for hotels that only show, by default, the cheapest room. You arrive at your hotel in Paris for your romantic break to find it's got bunk beds, shared facilities and no windows. It was the cheapest but not the most appropriate.

Now please, as I said at the start, the railway isn't perfect. But peoples perception of the railway needs to change so that they see it in the real world - not just as "it's a train".

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

I think those around me perceive the railway as disorganised, delayed, unreliable, and staff as if not actively disliking passengers, at least wishing they would go away and leave them alone to do whatever it is they’d rather be doing.

This is probably because of the fact that over the last few months of me travelling around the country by train at least once a week or so, I’ve had one return journey where I wasn’t due any delay repay, been rerouted multiple times during delays caused by a person under a train, Avanti double booking seats on multiple journeys, Avanti TMs shouting at people sitting in the (empty) assisted travel seats waiting for the TM, being openly hostile when asked about seat reservations, and on a couple of occasions being threatened with prosecution for being at the wrong station by staff who have misread “Workington” as “Wokingham”, seen NT staff picking fights with customers… the general unreliability of NT at weekends… I could go on, but I can see why they might try and avoid travelling by train.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting all the staff are like that, but there’s enough to be noticeable, and it seems to have gotten worse over the last year or so.

I still like travelling by train and work happily pay for it as I can get on with stuff while I’m moving unlike in the car, but they are starting to think I’m a little bit daft with all the incidents I’ve had!

 

[NeilCr]

Isn’t one of the problems with this that- as someone said - (and obviously) this is a forum for rail buffs who have much more knowledge and stronger views than your average member of the public

One or two of my friends know something (quite a lot actually) about ticketing. The rest just want to get from a to b without much hassle and at an acceptable price for them

Maybe I and my friends are lucky but I’ve heard very little moaning about the rail service from them - from my neck of the woods anyway

 

[Krokodil]

A search on another website shows 91 options for flights from London to New York travelling out on 01/12 and returning in 08/12. Some are direct others go via the likes of Madrid. A click on one option shows a further 14 choices f I choose that flight. So a simple trip to New York and back has well over 1000 options - yet there's never a call to simplify air travel.

Yet the railway offers two tickets from A to B (anytime and off peak) and people can't cope.

Airlines generally offer one type of ticket. It's basically an Advance Single, the conditions are simple - booked flight only. Other ticket types are rarely used and most of the population will never see them.

But you need to get to the airport first. From Manchester Piccadilly there are a total of five different Standard Class ticket types (Anytime Day Single, Anytime Day Single [TPE only], Off Peak Day Single [TPE only], Anytime Day Single [TfW only], and the various flavours of Advance Single). That's not counting return tickets, of which there are a further eight types.

 

[Par]

Perhaps you could recommend our website to them?

Companies like LNER are very keen for people not to use our site, and to use their site; I suspect this is at least partly because they don't want people to take advantage of the deals we find!

The forum ticketing website is great, but it won’t / wouldn’t sell me the Advance tickets I mentioned in reply #38, whereas LNER would.

 

[yorksrob]

Sat on a train at Man Vic.

Delayed start - over ten minutes since we were supposed to leave.

No one- not a single person in authority has bothered to update us.

This sums up why people don't choose the train.