Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[Starmill]

I thought the earlier idea was to use Toton as the interchange for a diverted line or maybe a tram extension between Nottingham and Derby. People usually criticised HS2 on the basis it didn’t go to either of the two major destinations at all.

Birmingham Curzon Street to Nottingham via Toton was in scope of the previous plans.

 

[Sandfield]

The current post COVID situation won't extend past HS2 opening - the service will get reinstated.

Lime Street can largely be altered within the existing railway land - not heard that before.

Proposals for a new station would need to be funded locally - why?

 

[daveu101]

Seems Hull is out in the cold, as usual. Also, the map looks as though the south Hambleton curve not to be electrified, or is that too much detail at this stage?

 

[MontyP]

Doubt it. Electrification via New Pudsey more likely. But we'll see.

Current journey time from Leeds to Bfd Interchange is around 18 mins at the moment, with 1 or 2 intermediate stops? How quick would it be if it was non-stop with no other upgrades? Would a 12 min service require 4-tracking? A fast train every 15 mins (taking 12 mins) could work on 2 tracks with a stopper every 15 mins taking 18-20 mins although platform/throat capacity at each end would presumably be the main issue.

 

[A0]

Seems Hull is out in the cold, as usual. Also, the map looks as though the south Hambleton curve not to be electrified, or is that too much detail at this stage?

Too much detail at this stage.

But Hull wasn't benefitting from HS2 - it *might* actually benefit from the ECML upgrades - because these are likely to be between Huntingdon and Doncaster which will be looking to separate slower and faster trains and increased amounts of 125 / 140 linespeed, which will benefit Hull - London services.

 

[Roast Veg]

The report rather disingenuously uses Manchester Piccadilly for the Liverpool to Manchester journey time comparison, making it out to represent an improvement from 50 to 35 minutes.

Of course, the journey time from Liverpool to Manchester Victoria via the Chat Moss is already 35 minutes with one intermediate call, and the journey time would be almost identical if such services ran to Piccadilly instead.

Indeed the journey time could be around 31 minutes - quicker than the new NPR route - if non-stop services were reinstated.

This is just one example of the utterly predictable spin of what is a massive cutback in the investment the government promised.

I agree that the tables should take Victoria into account more plainly when comparing Liverpool-Manchester in isolation. It is worth remembering that the new alignment still represents a big uptick in capacity, additionally serves Warrington and Manchester Airport (the latter is significantly faster than today by any route), and will be the principal alignment for much faster services beyond Manchester as well. You also get a much more capacious connection to HS2 to London than the one at Crewe, all at once.

It's up to NR to work out how to get HS2 services into the current Sheffield and Leeds stations, from the end of HS2 at East Mids Pkwy.
But the result would have to be an electrified route throughout, from the current Kettering wires limit, via Nottingham and Derby, and presumably the Erewash Valley.

Erewash Valley is (with the exception of Toton's new station) not in scope. If a subsequent review finds that it does represent the best way to improve MML capacity then that's what we'll get, but the NIC didn't think it was critical without a high speed section from Leeds to Clayton.

Is there any update on the Barnett consequentials from today's announcement?

They are likely to be reduced, both by the £10bn reduced cost, and by the cheeky Bordesley chord addition improving links from the north an dmidlands to Cardiff as part of the Midlands Rail Hub. No official announcement though.

When are we to expect that report? I thought it was due this year?

The IRP uses the word "shortly" to describe its publication date. It was due in Summer of this year originally, but has no doubt been delayed by the IRP itself. It's being run by Sir Peter Hendy, who ought to know a thing or two.

 

[Peter Lanky]

Because some 9m people live there many of whom have friends and relatives in the rest of the country and rail is the easiest way of getting to and from there.

It may account for a small proportion, certainly on Friday and Sunday afternoons. I'm not convinced for the rest of the week though.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Massive joke that the Sheffield to Leeds line has been relegated to ‘we are considering’

 

[quantinghome]

Seems Hull is out in the cold, as usual. Also, the map looks as though the south Hambleton curve not to be electrified, or is that too much detail at this stage?

Probably too much detail but sadly you are right about being left out in the cold. This is what the report says:




According to the report, NPR from Leeds-Manchester won't be completed until the 2040s. So you'll be waiting a very long time for the corridor to Hull itself to be upgraded if the conclusions of this report stand. However you would benefit from upgrades elsewhere if that's where your journey takes you.

 

[7griffinjack]

Hull wasn't benefitting from HS2 either way. Paradoxically it *might* actually benefit from today's announcements as its London services may benefit from the infrastructure improvements on the ECML.

It will benefit from the Trans Pennine upgrades which will be happening.

HS2 eastern leg would have taken Leeds + north of York trains off the ECML freeing that up for extra services to places such as Hull, Lincoln, Grimsby etc. Hull could have had more regular trains to London i.e. hourly but with Leeds trains etc now remaining on the ECML there will be limited extra capacity for these type of improvements.

 

[quantinghome]

Current journey time from Leeds to Bfd Interchange is around 18 mins at the moment, with 1 or 2 intermediate stops? How quick would it be if it was non-stop with no other upgrades? Would a 12 min service require 4-tracking? A fast train every 15 mins (taking 12 mins) could work on 2 tracks with a stopper every 15 mins taking 18-20 mins although platform/throat capacity at each end would presumably be the main issue.

I don't know. Non-stop would be quicker, obviously, but then you'd have to fit 8 trains per hour through the in-out junction at Interchange.

Also unclear from the announcement is whether electrification would extend beyond Bradford. This would be critical to how it all works. You'd probably want to run the longer distance trains non-stop between Leeds and Bradford and have the local service as stoppers.

How it all would work I've no idea. And I'm not sure the report's writers do either tbh.

 

[A0]

Massive joke that the Sheffield to Leeds line has been relegated to ‘we are considering’

Not really when the 'we are considering' is because they also need to align it with what happens for HS accessing Leeds. The two potentially have a massive overlap, so you wouldn't plan those in isolation, so something will happen what isn't clear is what.

No reasonable statement can be made about what will be done, because there are doubtless going to be 3 or 4 different options all with their own pros and cons which need to be considered.

 

[YorksLad12]

Current journey time from Leeds to Bfd Interchange is around 18 mins at the moment, with 1 or 2 intermediate stops? How quick would it be if it was non-stop with no other upgrades? Would a 12 min service require 4-tracking? A fast train every 15 mins (taking 12 mins) could work on 2 tracks with a stopper every 15 mins taking 18-20 mins although platform/throat capacity at each end would presumably be the main issue.

Bradford's problem (well, its railway problem) is that the line from Leeds meets the Interchange at right angles. It has to take that turn south-westwards and curve up at Bolling Road to meet the line into Interchange. And there's a significant change in levels. That adds a few minutes as you can't do that curve at a decent speed. But any improvement would be a major infrastructure project, possibly even rebuilding Intechange over the road on the old Exchange site - which is why I think 12 minutes is impossible. Even if you four-tracked, electrified and took out the intermediate stops you'd have to travel very, very fast.

 

[quantinghome]

Not really when the 'we are considering' is because they also need to align it with what happens for HS accessing Leeds. The two potentially have a massive overlap, so you wouldn't plan those in isolation, so something will happen what isn't clear is what.

No reasonable statement can be made about what will be done, because there are doubtless going to be 3 or 4 different options all with their own pros and cons which need to be considered.

View attachment 105824

As has been noted, plenty of options are given in the report for upgrades and new lines elsewhere. It's a very obvious gap in the report. There was plenty of leaking to the press over the last few weeks about a new line from Leeds to north of Sheffield, and the new station at Leeds being retained. I suspect work might have been done on it but they pulled it from the report at the last minute for whatever reason.

 

[MontyP]

Bradford's problem (well, its railway problem) is that the line from Leeds meets the Interchange at right angles. It has to take that turn south-westwards and curve up at Bolling Road to meet the line into Interchange. And there's a significant change in levels. That adds a few minutes as you can't do that curve at a decent speed. But any improvement would be a major infrastructure project, possibly even rebuilding Intechange over the road on the old Exchange site - which is why I think 12 minutes is impossible. Even if you four-tracked, electrified and took out the intermediate stops you'd have to travel very, very fast.

I agree that there is a problem at the Bradford end (and also getting across the numerous junctions in the approaches at Leeds) - but it's only 9 miles after all. To do it in 12 mins is only an average speed of 60mph. Leeds - Wakefield Westgate is slightly further (10 miles) and LNER trains do it in 12 mins.

Out of interest - what is the fastest "short" (<10 miles) journey in Britain at the moment?

 

[WesternLancer]

I thought the earlier idea was to use Toton as the interchange for a diverted line or maybe a tram extension between Nottingham and Derby. People usually criticised HS2 on the basis it didn’t go to either of the two major destinations at all.

well surely it would have been both - Toton being a stop on the route of HS services heading further north from which people could get a shuttle train into Nottm or Derby etc (or a tram to the points on the tram route) AND certainly classic compatible trains going to Derby and Nottm city centers. Just like how TGV services work. Nothing complex.

Tram extension got lots of noise because Nottm City Council talked it up more than otgher options (no criticism intended - it would also be important to have and was a v short extension to build but I don't want to get too much off topic) - as they have a financial stake in the tram (but no such financial stake in the train service between Nottm / Derby /Toton as it were.

Toton would have been served by far more traffic from the A52 than from city centre stations or the tram however, since vast number of population points of varying sizes served directly or indirectly by the A52 which is a fast road also with a good M1 link* - including much of western side of Nottm city where people would find it easier to drive to Toton station adjacent A52 than into Nottm city centre (or as a friend of mine said to me a while back "I live in Bramcote - why would I want to drive into central Nottingham to get a train to Leicester / Derby / Birmingham / London etc )".

*HS line was not previously due to serve EM Parkways also near M1 IIRC.

 

[Bikeman78]

As per previous discussions; even with solving Welwyn ECML capacity uplift potential is highly limited; so the core benefit of upgrades would be journey time through segregating fast/slow services more.

Four tracking Huntingdon to Peterborough would be useful. Also upgrade the slow lines north of Woolmer Green to 90 or 100 mph to speed up the stoppers. 75 mph feels really slow. A 317 could have got above that between most stops, a 700 will benefit more.

 

[Roast Veg]

As has been noted, plenty of options are given in the report for upgrades and new lines elsewhere. It's a very obvious gap in the report. There was plenty of leaking to the press over the last few weeks about a new line from Leeds to north of Sheffield, and the new station at Leeds being retained. I suspect work might have been done on it but they pulled it from the report at the last minute for whatever reason.

Assuming those "leaks" were accurate, and not just assumptions based on the NIC report, then the reason will be Leeds itself. You can't fit HS2 services (even just Birmingham ones, which are now expected to run over NPR instead), and the former new station proposal in HS2 2b East pointed north, making it only good for Bradford new-build NPR or diverted ECML services. Leeds will need a new station in 30 years, by which time we'll hopefully be looking at a new line to supplement the ECML (as HS2 will do for the WCML).

 

[A0]

As has been noted, plenty of options are given in the report for upgrades and new lines elsewhere. It's a very obvious gap in the report. There was plenty of leaking to the press over the last few weeks about a new line from Leeds to north of Sheffield, and the new station at Leeds being retained. I suspect work might have been done on it but they pulled it from the report at the last minute for whatever reason.

*sigh* because some of those are using analysis which had already been done.

The decision not to extend HS2 to Leeds is more recent and for that reason the analysis of the alternatives hasn't yet been done.

Is it really that difficult to understand basic concepts? I know tinfoil hat conspiracy theories are en vogue at present, but even then......

 

[A0]

Four tracking Huntingdon to Peterborough would be useful. Also upgrade the slow lines north of Woolmer Green to 90 or 100 mph to speed up the stoppers. 75 mph feels really slow. A 317 could have got above that between most stops, a 700 will benefit more.

I'd expect Huntingdon - Peterborough 4 track to be one of those which comes up.

Upgrading the slows between Woolmer Green won't though, because this is about longer distance ECML services and speeding those up. The slow lines aren't relevant for that - and the only issue they caused before Peterborough (apart from Welwyn which won't be fixed under this) has now been fixed, which was the flat crossing at Hitchin to the Cambridge branch.

 

[Mikey C]

well surely it would have been both - Toton being a stop on the route of HS services heading further north from which people could get a shuttle train into Nottm or Derby etc (or a tram to the points on the tram route) AND certainly classic compatible trains going to Derby and Nottm city centers. Just like how TGV services work. Nothing complex.

Tram extension got lots of noise because Nottm City Council talked it up - as they have a financial stake in the tram (but no such financial stake in the train service between Nottm / Derby /Toton as it were.

Classic trains from Toton to Nottingham and Derby would hardly be an attractive option, it's not as if it's a short segregated route where you could have a frequent shuttle

 

[Skie]

Hopefully they crack on with some of the Liverpool WCML and approaches upgrades sooner rather than waiting for HS2 to get up north before doing the entire route. Would benefit existing services to sort out the slow as molasses last few miles.

 

[Ianno87]

Classic trains from Toton to Nottingham and Derby would hardly be an attractive option, it's not as if it's a short segregated route where you could have a frequent shuttle

The "obvious" thing to do would be divert the Nottingham-Liverpool and Nottingham-Leeds services via Toton. Perhaps also a service such as Mansfield-Toton-Derby too.

 

[YorksLad12]

I agree that there is a problem at the Bradford end (and also getting across the numerous junctions in the approaches at Leeds) - but it's only 9 miles after all. To do it in 12 mins is only an average speed of 60mph. Leeds - Wakefield Westgate is slightly further (10 miles) and LNER trains do it in 12 mins.

Out of interest - what is the fastest "short" (<10 miles) journey in Britain at the moment?

True, true... but there's New Pudsey to consider as well. It's a valuable Park & Ride station. Even if the "we'll look at a West Yorkshire Mass Transit system (again)" idea suggests some sort of tram or tram-train, you need to move a lot of people in the peaks. That would be difficult with just a tram, a traim-train would run afoul of the same capacity issues, unless there were long loops of on-street running at New Pudsey and Bramley.

I do look forward to seeing what comes out of this idea, but I just don't see it happening. Especially with that tight curve.

 

[backontrack]

About NPR and MML electrification:

I'd say I'll believe it when I see it. But I don't, I won't.

Even if we start to see the wires and OHLE go up, I don't trust this present, utterly anti-transport government to follow through. They'll cancel, cut back, curtail, any way they can, and these projects have already been cancelled once and they can be again.

Groundhog day. Call it Northern Powerhouse, call it Levelling Up, call it whatever you hell you want. It's utterly derisory, disingenuous, and basically just depressing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

London-Leeds times:

Full HS2 via Toton: 81 minutes
IRP - via ECML: 113 minutes
- via Manchester P: 71+33 minutes + interchange/reversal time at Manchester P - overall 109m?
- via East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield - to be determined (87 minutes to Sheffield)

Most of the analysis about upgrading the ECML/MML routes is stated in minimum journey time terms, rather than overall capacity.
HS2 West delivers a huge increase in overall capacity; HS2 East doesn't.

 

[A0]

About NPR and MML electrification:

I'd say I'll believe it when I see it. But I don't, I won't.

Even if we start to see the wires and OHLE go up, I don't trust this present, utterly anti-transport government to follow through. They'll cancel, cut back, curtail, any way they can, and these projects have already been cancelled once and they can be again.

Groundhog day. Call it Northern Powerhouse, call it Levelling Up, call it whatever you hell you want. It's utterly derisory, disingenuous, and basically just depressing.

Another positive poster. Lots out today.

Interestingly Conservative governments have done far more electrification than their Labour counterparts. Care to list the exhaustive improvements the last Labour government delivered ? It won't take long.

 

[thejuggler]

I agree that there is a problem at the Bradford end (and also getting across the numerous junctions in the approaches at Leeds) - but it's only 9 miles after all. To do it in 12 mins is only an average speed of 60mph. Leeds - Wakefield Westgate is slightly further (10 miles) and LNER trains do it in 12 mins.

It's the tight curve coupled with the gradients which slow the trip.

Whilst it has a nominal 60 limit it isn't achieved for much of the trip. New Pudsey tunnel also has a 30 limit. By the time the train has cleared to the 60 limit and began accelerating towards Bradford it reaches Laisterdyke where it then has to slow for the descent into the tight curves before Mill Lane junction and its then a slow approach into the platforms.

I agree with a previous post that there may be an argument for having some non stoppers to get it down to 15 minutes or so.

 

[The Planner]

Hopefully they crack on with some of the Liverpool WCML and approaches upgrades sooner rather than waiting for HS2 to get up north before doing the entire route. Would benefit existing services to sort out the slow as molasses last few miles.

Unless they were accelerated parts of the NPR route nothing is going to happen along there.

 

[Fedupnorthern]

Not sure how much scope there is for rethinking the Golborne connection. Could it be extended bypassing Wigan NW to Standish, where it could reuse a former burrowing junction and join a reinstated 4-track section from Balshaw Jn? Perhaps with a reinstated short link from De Trafford Jn to Hindley?

I think Wigan needs to benefit, rather than be bypassed, like Northamptonshire.