Pushchairs on trains

[Bletchleyite]

Nope, I object to being told to move by anyone, especially so rudely. This woman was incredibly rude. Do you seriously think it’s acceptable for anyone to say ‘you move’ to someone? She then pretended she didn’t understand and kept ramming my wheelchair with her buggy!
And by the way- get it right. RP is a dialect, not an accent. If you’re going to be so objective I suggest you get your facts straight first.

Tell me to do something, unless you're my boss, a railway official or the Police I will do the legal minimum I can do.

Ask me nicely, I will put myself out to help as far as I possibly can.

Any attempt to use physical force will be met with passive resistance and, if serious, a crime report.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps it is their policy to keep the space clear in order to minimise delay?

Because if a wheelchair user were to board at a station which has a 1 or 2 minute stop, and the wheelchair space is full and babies are asleep in the pushchairs, there is every chance of a delay.

Er, why?

Get the wheelchair user on the train, shut doors, buzz buzz, then the guard can sort things out to get them in the space.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Nope, I object to being told to move by anyone, especially so rudely. This woman was incredibly rude. Do you seriously think it’s acceptable for anyone to say ‘you move’ to someone? She then pretended she didn’t understand and kept ramming my wheelchair with her buggy!
And by the way- get it right. RP is a dialect, not an accent. If you’re going to be so objective I suggest you get your facts straight first.

My facts are straight, thank you.

You seemed to be implying that it was worse to be asked to move (however rudely) by someone who wasn’t a native English speaker.

 

[holl1984]

Manchester Piccadilly to Blackpool one Thursday during the last summer holidays with my then 9 month old, just turned 3 year old and 5 year old. 2 youngest were in a double pram only inches wider than a single. We had with us a changing bag, a change of clothes in a kiddie rucksack for the boys. My daughter (the baby) travelled lightly by this point (2 changes of clothes, nappies, wipes, snacks and spare dummy) so her changing bag housed drinks, suncream, hats etc. I folded that stupid double pram whilst holding a baby, controlling a toddler and a 5 year old (both typical boisterous excitable boys) only to get on the train and the guard say to me "you might as well unfold that thing and stick the baby back in. There isn't anywhere to really put it" so I did! But my intentions were good!

It was on the return leg I had the most issues but that was with some "entitled to" chav thing coz she had no room to put baby chardonnay (seriously) and had to actually interact with her child!

 

[pt_mad]

Er, why?

Get the wheelchair user on the train, shut doors, buzz buzz, then the guard can sort things out to get them in the space.

If the person was traveling alone in a manual wheelchair, they would need staff to stay with them until they were secure in the wheelchair space with brakes on. They may need staff to help manoeuvre into the wheelchair space.

I would have thought that the wheelchair user should be situated securely in the proper space first, with brakes applied, before moving the train on.
Otherwise, how would the station staff ensure that the people with pushchairs and luggage were actually going to move, leaving enough space?

And if the train started to move from stationery, and the wheelchair user was in the vestibule or aisleway trying to manoeuvre around the people moving the pushchairs out, their wheelchair may roll without them expecting it. And they wouldn't be in the proper place.

Surely if it's policy that a wheelchair user must be in the designated space with brakes applied, with back of chair to the wall when traveling, then there's no way a train should be sent off while they are still moving around the vestibule waiting for for people to move.

 

[xc170]

Then I suggest that you do not have adequate control over your child.
Take things for him to be occupied sitting down.

(Father of 3, graandfather of 2)

Wow, excuse me?

I shouldn't have to explain my previous post, but I said he would be running up and down the carriage if he WASN'T strapped in.

Not sure how you can pass judgement on anyones parenting skills without having first hand experience of said persons parenting skills.

 

[LowLevel]

Er, why?

Get the wheelchair user on the train, shut doors, buzz buzz, then the guard can sort things out to get them in the space.

It's not that easy. Try that on an unrefurbished 158 and you have all sorts of fun with the guard having to clamber over the person in the wheelchair etc.

I lost 5 minutes once because 6 people with 6 pushchairs had taken it upon themselves to do a Tetris job with the available wheelchair and bike space and I found a wheelchair user waiting for me unannounced (as is their right) at the next stop. There was literally nowhere to store the pushchairs on board.

We have a well publicised bar on pushchairs remaining unfolded on Skegness summer services as well due to lack of space - the old Northern posters used to be present on the stations with warnings of prosecution under the safety instruction byelaw for refusal to fold pushchairs. Staff assaults are not unusual either verbal or physical enforcing it.

My biggest bug bear is someone parking a giant buggy straight across the driver's door or blocking the toilet or vestibule access. Giant status pushchairs should be banned and I have left them behind before. I once turned up and was told I was being unhelpful and should just get on with it when a party of 5 or 6 families turned up together and wanted to store everything unfolded. It is not practical.

That or wedging it in the middle doorway outside the emergency cupboard on a 156 (they soon get moved when I point out the break glass cover will shower baby with shards and point out the scars on my fingers from previous escapades).

Basically all round an expectation has developed that the railway will accommodate and unfortunately 1980s trains like 1980s buses before them often can't without inconveniencing others.

 

[Ianno87]

Wow, excuse me?

I shouldn't have to explain my previous post, but I said he would be running up and down the carriage if he WASN'T strapped in.

Not sure how you can pass judgement on anyones parenting skills without having first hand experience of said persons parenting skills.

Seconded. My one year old has only just learned to use his legs, and wants to try them out as much as possible.

Clip him in the pram, he'll fidget and scream.

Try and restrain him in my lap, he'll fidget, scream and force his way to the floor (if I try and restrain him harder, he'll scream louder).

Bringing food and entertainment only goes so far, as he doesn't have proper attention span just yet. Once he's bored of a toy, you can't force him to keep playing with it...

So (provided its not too busy) I let him walk up and down the carriage, walking behind him, lifting him away from other passengers as necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the person was traveling alone in a manual wheelchair, they would need staff to stay with them until they were secure in the wheelchair space with brakes on. They may need staff to help manoeuvre into the wheelchair space.

I would have thought that the wheelchair user should be situated securely in the proper space first, with brakes applied, before moving the train on.
Otherwise, how would the station staff ensure that the people with pushchairs and luggage were actually going to move, leaving enough space?

And if the train started to move from stationery, and the wheelchair user was in the vestibule or aisleway trying to manoeuvre around the people moving the pushchairs out, their wheelchair may roll without them expecting it. And they wouldn't be in the proper place.

Surely if it's policy that a wheelchair user must be in the designated space with brakes applied, with back of chair to the wall when traveling, then there's no way a train should be sent off while they are still moving around the vestibule waiting for for people to move.

They are allowed to go to the toilet, so it is clearly safe for them to be elsewhere too.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nope, I object to being told to move by anyone, especially so rudely. This woman was incredibly rude. Do you seriously think it’s acceptable for anyone to say ‘you move’ to someone? She then pretended she didn’t understand and kept ramming my wheelchair with her buggy!
And by the way- get it right. RP is a dialect, not an accent. If you’re going to be so objective I suggest you get your facts straight first.

Not sure you mean “objective” but in any case it’s a bit rich to accuse him of picking you apart when you criticised someone’s English when it suited you.

 

[MCSHF007]

Not in any circumstances (in response to Maire23's question re " You Move")

 

[Spartacus]

Getting away from all the criticism of others, I find pacers are a swine with the pram we have, the length of the step is the same as the wheelbase of the pram, making it tough to control whether getting on or off, and downright dangerous if there's a big step up from the platform.

 

[holl1984]

I struggle with my daughter's single pram too but bizarrely not the double. We have a joie aire twin and despite being one of the cheapest (the reason we got it) it's extremely public transport friendly.

I agree with some of the other posts about it not always being easy to entertain/restrain toddlers especially on long journeys and I guess I'm just lucky that I've always seemed to manage it with both my boys. However, I always finish a journey with the 3 needing a stiff drink and a lie down!

 

[muz379]

Good luck kicking a parent and a child off a train. The media would have a field day. We aren't even allowed to kick off teenagers without tickets.

If it comes to that then so be it . I dont operate my train on the basis of what the media might say . I operate it in the interests of safety complying with the rules and instructions issued by my TOC .

Its never come to that though , people usually comply once you point out to them that the train cannot move until it is safe

I seem to remember this issue was litigated in relation to buses and the decision in the case was that bus companies were not under a legal obligation to order a selfish buggy user to vacate a wheelchair space.

I'm unsure whether this translates directly to the equivalent situation on the railway. Is there something in the bylaws TOCs can use to compel people to vacate the space (putting issues of how practical it would be to enforce such a bylaw, even if one does exist, to one side)?

Perhaps 10(2)
(2)No person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by that person.

If you take that the disabled space is also for their safety then perhaps 12(2) would also be relevant which is the byelaw allowing staff to instruct people to do things in the interests of safety

I would have thought that the wheelchair user should be situated securely in the proper space first, with brakes applied, before moving the train on.
Otherwise, how would the station staff ensure that the people with pushchairs and luggage were actually going to move, leaving enough space?

Generally this . If there are pushchair users and they would be required to move to a different part of the train in the past this has meant them getting out through the door and walking up the platform .Not possible when the train is moving and might not be stopping for some time

 

[ScouserGirl]

Ive got a bugaboo pram its hard to get it on and off the train myself if i do get on a train i go to the buffet area on the train and stand there. If i was in the disabled area i would move for a wheelchair and stand in the vestuable. I very rarely get trains with the pram as its a pain in the bum for me.

 

[maire23]

Not sure you mean “objective” but in any case it’s a bit rich to accuse him of picking you apart when you criticised someone’s English when it suited you.

Just shocked at the amount of people on here who actually think it’s okay and acceptable to say ‘you move’ instead of ‘excuse me’ or similar polite interjection.
I was criticising her English because what she said is not acceptable in any way shape or form- ever.
As a Masters student in Linguistics I’m actually quite interested in languages in their various forms. I’m not against people of other races either (probably to the shock of some on here who seem to think that I’m some sort of racist- my username, coincidentally, is my middle name which should indicate it is not an English name which should give you some clues to my nationality- I’m not English people!!!)
I dislike anyone being rude and she was very rude indeed. What she said was out of order- end of.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was criticising her English because what she said is not acceptable in any way shape or form- ever.

It would be perfectly acceptable if English wasn’t their first language. I don’t think we could expect more of them. It still wouldn’t be a polite request, or even a reasonable one, but neither would it be polite to unfairly criticise their “broken English”, that being a term implying the speaker wasn’t native.

I’m not sure why you’ve gone on a defensive about not being a racist, and it’s even more confusing to read your pre-emptive rebuttal of a (non existent) accusation of racism bolstered by the evidence that you’re not English. It’s helpful to know that if you have an Irish middle name it indemnifies you against all accusations of this type.

Of course nobody wants to have their rights denied by others, and nobody wants to be told to move, wrongly, by someone who isn’t in the right in the first place.

 

[maire23]

It would be perfectly acceptable if English wasn’t their first language. I don’t think we could expect more of them. It still wouldn’t be a polite request, or even a reasonable one, but neither would it be polite to unfairly criticise their “broken English”, that being a term implying the speaker wasn’t native.

I’m not sure why you’ve gone on a defensive about not being a racist, and it’s even more confusing to read your pre-emptive rebuttal of a (non existent) accusation of racism bolstered by the evidence that you’re not English. It’s helpful to know that if you have an Irish middle name it indemnifies you against all accusations of this type.

Of course nobody wants to have their rights denied by others, and nobody wants to be told to move, wrongly, by someone who isn’t in the right in the first place.

I get the feeling from some of the posts aimed at me that I’m accused of being racist, something which I most definitely am not. My middle name is Irish, yes and so am I. You obviously ignored the part where I said that I’m not even English myself!
I’m getting a bit tired of this now. I’m out of here. I’m on the autism spectrum btw and have a personality disorder. I don’t have a filter button which seems necessary to be able to post on here, and neither am I perfect which is seemingly another requirement!!!!

 

[holl1984]

Ive got a bugaboo pram its hard to get it on and off the train myself if i do get on a train i go to the buffet area on the train and stand there. If i was in the disabled area i would move for a wheelchair and stand in the vestuable. I very rarely get trains with the pram as its a pain in the bum for me.

This is where baby wearing comes in handy! No need for a pram then. Used to work brilliantly till she started pulling my hair and biting me! However, as I will have 4 by this summer, I'm pretty glad I've passed my test

 

[maire23]

Okay hello everyone.
This is Tash, Maya carer and cousin (Maya is what we call her)
She’s been a little upset and het up on here, as she gets. Apologies for anything inappropriate however please do remember she isn’t always aware of what she says may not be appropriate. She might seem articulate and yes she is correct in saying she is a Masters student but she has no filter button!
This incident did upset her greatly. I heard what was going on as she rang me because she was frightened and I heard the shouts of the woman (yes, she was shouting) and I could actually hear the clangs as her wheelchair was hit. When I picked her up at Nottingham she was crying that her legs hurt and next day they were purple in places with bruising. She suffers with allodynia (extreme pain to the smallest of touches) and this was excruciating to her.
From what I heard this wasn’t a case of an ‘appropriate reaction’ it was far from appropriate. I would almost go as far as saying she was being attacked.
The conductor was nowhere in sight (or so she says) but she cannot communicate face to face with men she doesn’t know due to a previous assault so she could not even tell him what was going on or what had happened.
I hope this clarifies for everyone. I will remove her from here for now while she calms down.
Thanks
Tash

 

[fowler9]

Okay hello everyone.
This is Tash, Maya carer and cousin (Maya is what we call her)
She’s been a little upset and het up on here, as she gets. Apologies for anything inappropriate however please do remember she isn’t always aware of what she says may not be appropriate. She might seem articulate and yes she is correct in saying she is a Masters student but she has no filter button!
This incident did upset her greatly. I heard what was going on as she rang me because she was frightened and I heard the shouts of the woman (yes, she was shouting) and I could actually hear the clangs as her wheelchair was hit. When I picked her up at Nottingham she was crying that her legs hurt and next day they were purple in places with bruising. She suffers with allodynia (extreme pain to the smallest of touches) and this was excruciating to her.
From what I heard this wasn’t a case of an ‘appropriate reaction’ it was far from appropriate. I would almost go as far as saying she was being attacked.
The conductor was nowhere in sight (or so she says) but she cannot communicate face to face with men she doesn’t know due to a previous assault so she could not even tell him what was going on or what had happened.
I hope this clarifies for everyone. I will remove her from here for now while she calms down.
Thanks
Tash

Sorry to hear that. Hope your cousin. Is OK.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I lost 5 minutes once because 6 people with 6 pushchairs had taken it upon themselves to do a Tetris job with the available wheelchair and bike space and I found a wheelchair user waiting for me unannounced (as is their right) at the next stop. There was literally nowhere to store the pushchairs on board. We have a well publicised bar on pushchairs remaining unfolded on Skegness summer services as well due to lack of space - the old Northern posters used to be present on the stations with warnings of prosecution under the safety instruction byelaw for refusal to fold pushchairs. Staff assaults are not unusual either verbal or physical enforcing it.

My biggest bug bear is someone parking a giant buggy straight across the driver's door or blocking the toilet or vestibule access. Giant status pushchairs should be banned and I have left them behind before. I once turned up and was told I was being unhelpful and should just get on with it when a party of 5 or 6 families turned up together and wanted to store everything unfolded. It is not practical.That or wedging it in the middle doorway outside the emergency cupboard on a 156 (they soon get moved when I point out the break glass cover will shower baby with shards and point out the scars on my fingers from previous escapades).

If a passenger is assaulting the guard then they, the passenger should be removed from the train, detained by BTP and banned from using the railway, they'll soon get the message that they can't take their oversized pushchair onboard.

 

[EssexGonzo]

That is very selfish of you.

So sod the disabled person that might have actually booked the wheelchair space, as long as you are OK it doesn't matter about the inconvenience caused to others

That's very judgemental of you.

He did mention "out of the way" so is trying to respect the space of others.

And did he say that he wouldn't move for a wheelchair user?

 

[stut]

I wonder if there's a difference in perception based on the type of service people are used to using here.

For me, most of my travel with a pushchair is on off-peak GN services. 8-car 365s, 2+2 seating, DOO, typically with 4+ multi-purpose spaces (of which I've only ever seen one in use by a wheelchair). Services are typically lightly loaded, less than 50% of seats occupied. Vestibules are double-doored and large, and the fast trains I get are non-stop to the terminus. There's also a lot of empty space around the disabled loo, and large luggage space at the carriage ends (usually unused off-peak, too). So it's very easy to use a pushchair onboard, and move quickly should you need to.

I can imagine that, on a crowded XC service, on a seaside special, on a cramped 14x/15x train, things might be rather different.

 

[221129]

I wonder if there's a difference in perception based on the type of service people are used to using here.

For me, most of my travel with a pushchair is on off-peak GN services. 8-car 365s, 2+2 seating, DOO, typically with 4+ multi-purpose spaces (of which I've only ever seen one in use by a wheelchair). Services are typically lightly loaded, less than 50% of seats occupied. Vestibules are double-doored and large, and the fast trains I get are non-stop to the terminus. There's also a lot of empty space around the disabled loo, and large luggage space at the carriage ends (usually unused off-peak, too). So it's very easy to use a pushchair onboard, and move quickly should you need to.

I can imagine that, on a crowded XC service, on a seaside special, on a cramped 14x/15x train, things might be rather different.

That would make a big difference, for reference I work with one of the latter.

 

[Ianno87]

I wonder if there's a difference in perception based on the type of service people are used to using here.

For me, most of my travel with a pushchair is on off-peak GN services. 8-car 365s, 2+2 seating, DOO, typically with 4+ multi-purpose spaces (of which I've only ever seen one in use by a wheelchair). Services are typically lightly loaded, less than 50% of seats occupied. Vestibules are double-doored and large, and the fast trains I get are non-stop to the terminus. There's also a lot of empty space around the disabled loo, and large luggage space at the carriage ends (usually unused off-peak, too). So it's very easy to use a pushchair onboard, and move quickly should you need to.

I can imagine that, on a crowded XC service, on a seaside special, on a cramped 14x/15x train, things might be rather different.

On a crowded train I *have* to have the pram unfolded and my 1 y/o son strapped into it (even if it means standing in the doorway with him). Alternative is having him running up and down the train pissing everybody off (I can't just hold him in my arms as he'll just repeatedly force his way down again)

 

[InOban]

This is going off thread, but I am puzzled why parents no longer use a harness and one of these extending, locking dog leads to allow their children to use their legs (good) but keep them within a safe distance.

 

[stut]

On a crowded train I *have* to have the pram unfolded and my 1 y/o son strapped into it (even if it means standing in the doorway with him). Alternative is having him running up and down the train ****ing everybody off (I can't just hold him in my arms as he'll just repeatedly force his way down again)

Yeah, ours is still crawling, just on the point of walking. I simultaneously can't wait and am dreading the day. I do miss the slings - they were very handy. Have you tried any of the larger backpack carriers? I know there's a limit to how long you can keep one on, particularly when stood still, but variety is the spice of an active toddler's life...

 

[Ianno87]

This is going off thread, but I am puzzled why parents no longer use a harness and one of these extending, locking dog leads to allow their children to use their legs (good) but keep them within a safe distance.

On a crowded train, that still gives him sufficient radius from me to climb over and bother other passengers. If I take him to an uncrowded vestibule, he's naturally contained by the various doors anyway.

Yeah, ours is still crawling, just on the point of walking. I simultaneously can't wait and am dreading the day. I do miss the slings - they were very handy. Have you tried any of the larger backpack carriers? I know there's a limit to how long you can keep one on, particularly when stood still, but variety is the spice of an active toddler's life...

Yes, have used a carrier on a couple of longer journeys (luckily we have a spare pram stowed where we are going so don't need to take one with us). As you say, impractical to wear for a long period, but useful for navigating stations, changing trains etc.

Walking stage is great fun as they learn and explore, just:
-Batton down *everything* in your house. The more dangerous it is, the more interesting it is
-Don't expect to spend any meaningful length of any train ride sitting down! Its a bonus when they go to sleep...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Just a thought, but has anyone considered on sticking their child in one of those wheely cases and have them poking their head out the top?

It'll take up less room, plus it'd fit in the airline seats.