Queries re Irish Republic matters

[Calthrop]

Am relatively new to the forum: “please correct / moderators please move”, if I am guessing wrongly; but my understanding is that in the main, railway matters about Northern Ireland belong in the “chief body of”; whereas those about the Irish Republic, belong in the “International” section. I have a query or two, Irish-Republic-related; which I am duly putting in the “International” section, hoping that well-disposed persons au fait with the Republic’s rail scene, might feel moved to help with same.

I made a recent visit (car-borne, taking some time out for rail travel) to Northern Ireland – sailing, for reasons of economy, between Liverpool and Dublin, and travelling thence to / from the north. Northward journey at beginning of bash, was from Dublin to Belfast by an indirect and eccentric route, including Navan and Kingscourt. Am not as well-informed about Ireland’s railways – north or south – as I might be; and had been harbouring the notion that the whole route Drogheda – Navan – Kingscourt had for a fair few years been with track in situ but disused; since (per my imagining) the end (early 2000s) of conveying by rail to the outside world, of whatever was mined near Kingscourt -- had meant the falling into disuse of the entire rail line between there and Drogheda. Was surprised and pleased to find, on arriving in Navan, that the line between there and Drogheda is still in freight use – several trains each way per day – conveying zinc ore from the Tara mines near Navan. (Was there at the wrong time of day to see any action; but, a very pleasing discovery.)

Was discovered, continuing north, that the line from Navan to Kingscourt still has track in situ, but in an extremely overgrown and pretty well ruinous condition. Per observations: the mine near Kingscourt which long gave traffic to this line, is situated a mile or two south of Kingscourt itself; but that “ruinous” track continues north from the mine, to the town, maybe its station (a certain amount of haste precluded detailed investigation).

Would be grateful to know: what was the actual mineral won near Kingscourt, which kept this section running, until that situation ceased to be? – and, how has it come about that the track Navan – mine – beyond to Kingscourt town, is still there (though in horrible condition, to rectify which would seem to require a major operation)? I see possible “best-possible-case” answers, but fear that they will not be applicable.

And, “something completely different”: is anyone in contact with the “Irish Railway News” discussion board? A few months ago, I tried to apply for membership of this board. For weeks on end, I kept being told: “application not yet approved”. I finally gave up trying to log on (and now remember my would-be user-name, but not the password which I chose). Have wondered – is said board basically moribund; or did things just not go right for me? I reckon myself “English, but Ireland-friendly”, and would like to participate on the board concerned. Any advice or insights, would be appreciated.

 

[kevconnor]

The line ran to the Knocknacran Gypsum Mine.

 

[Calthrop]

Thanks. Gypsum seems to have been the "raison d'etre" of a good few interesting railways...

 

[hurricanemk1c]

Irish Railway News isn't that active anymore - the only topic that really sees any use is the Photo Website updates

 

[Calthrop]

Thanks for this -- best forget it, I feel. Glad it seems not anything to do with my being a not-desired "Saxon" .

 

[DT611]

From what i remember, once the Gypsum trains stopped back in 2001, irish rail were told that the line must remain in situ. It's last train was a weedspray in 2002 for which some footage exists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6R46dujSZ4
The line lost it's passenger service in 1947. It was the last railway in county cavan.
heres more footage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NURBvQkTXn8
I believe the Gypsum factory is still open but hauls by road instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NURBvQkTXn8

 

[Elwyn]

I have read that there is legislation in the Republic of Ireland that says that when all traffic ceases on a line, at least 10 years must pass before the line can be formally closed or lifted. (In case of the possibility of traffic resuming). Presumably after 10 years, the track is in such poor condition it’s then not worth lifting. I can think of other lines a bit like the Kingscourt line eg the New Ross branch and Athenry to Collooney where the track lay rusting for decades after all traffic had stopped.

If it’s any consolation to you the IRN board has been noted in the past as being very slow to approve new members. It took me months to join too. There is a small amount of activity on the board. Recent posts have been in relation to Northern Ireland Railways generally, the Derry Line in particular, the Waterford – Rosslare route and the Greater Dublin Strategy Plan.

 

[DT611]

I have read that there is legislation in the Republic of Ireland that says that when all traffic ceases on a line, at least 10 years must pass before the line can be formally closed or lifted. (In case of the possibility of traffic resuming). Presumably after 10 years, the track is in such poor condition it’s then not worth lifting. I can think of other lines a bit like the Kingscourt line eg the New Ross branch and Athenry to Collooney where the track lay rusting for decades after all traffic had stopped.

I think it is more the done thing rather then a rule. But Nobody seems to be able to confirm either way for definite.
I think people are assuming such a rule exists on the basis of later closed lines being left for a while before lifting, or simply being left, whereas at the start of the closure program in the 50s/60s lines were ripped up straight away. Thats not to say such rules don't exist either on an irish or european basis, but i personally have found no refference to it. I do know that for example the rosslare waterford line has to be "kept operational" for at least 10 years but as far as i know that was simply put in as part of the agreement to be able to suspend services.

 

[duesselmartin]

a similar approach seems to be on the Rosslare-Waterford line

 

[Calthrop]

From what i remember, once the Gypsum trains stopped back in 2001, irish rail were told that the line must remain in situ. It's last train was a weedspray in 2002 for which some footage exists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6R46dujSZ4
The line lost it's passenger service in 1947. It was the last railway in county cavan.
heres more footage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NURBvQkTXn8
I believe the Gypsum factory is still open but hauls by road instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NURBvQkTXn8

Fascinating videos -- my thanks. The gypsum facility -- seen when driving along that way last month -- certainly looked still-operational.

I have read that there is legislation in the Republic of Ireland that says that when all traffic ceases on a line, at least 10 years must pass before the line can be formally closed or lifted. (In case of the possibility of traffic resuming). Presumably after 10 years, the track is in such poor condition it’s then not worth lifting.

When looking at the track Navan -- Kingscourt and its condition: my companion on the "bash" expressed quite strong surprise that Irish Rail did not (with resumption of services appearing out of the question) lift the track, in the light of the considerable scrap value of the rails. I don't think he claims to be particularly an expert on these matters -- maybe recovering the rails would be less of a "gold mine", than one might imagine.

If it’s any consolation to you the IRN board has been noted in the past as being very slow to approve new members. It took me months to join too.

Thanks. I'll maybe have another try -- with a new requested user-name, to try to minimise confusion !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have read that there is legislation in the Republic of Ireland that says that when all traffic ceases on a line, at least 10 years must pass before the line can be formally closed or lifted. (In case of the possibility of traffic resuming). Presumably after 10 years, the track is in such poor condition it’s then not worth lifting. I can think of other lines a bit like the Kingscourt line eg the New Ross branch and Athenry to Collooney where the track lay rusting for decades after all traffic had stopped.

I think it is more the done thing rather then a rule. But Nobody seems to be able to confirm either way for definite.
I think people are assuming such a rule exists on the basis of later closed lines being left for a while before lifting, or simply being left, whereas at the start of the closure program in the 50s/60s lines were ripped up straight away. Thats not to say such rules don't exist either on an irish or european basis, but i personally have found no refference to it. I do know that for example the rosslare waterford line has to be "kept operational" for at least 10 years but as far as i know that was simply put in as part of the agreement to be able to suspend services.

So, thanks, people -- essentially it's "complying with (formal, or less formal) procedure", rather than any known plan or factor re this particular line.

"50s / 60s" mention above, brings to mind for me an interesting article in a 1956 "Trains Illustrated" (which magazine issue I thought was in my possession -- but which I seem to have misplaced), telling chiefly of lesser CIE lines of interest then still active / what CIE steam workings survived at the time. Article accompanied by a fascinating map, showing all CIE lines actually "on the ground" as at 1956.

A number of minor branches were indicated as "closed but line still in situ", with a code furnishing amplifying details. Some of these lines were thus shown as still carrying seasonal freight and / or "fair day" type specials a la Tralee & Dingle; the description "no traffic" was applied to a few: if I recall correctly -- Athboy, Killashandra, and Cashel branches, and the Streamstown -- Clara line. Mild wondering prompted, as to why the track was left in place on these totally disused lines (some other lines known to have been closed completely by CIE in the ten years-odd before 1956, were not shown on the map) -- though one figures that all this could have been down to any number of reasons.

 

[DT611]

"50s / 60s" mention above, brings to mind for me an interesting article in a 1956 "Trains Illustrated" (which magazine issue I thought was in my possession -- but which I seem to have misplaced), telling chiefly of lesser CIE lines of interest then still active / what CIE steam workings survived at the time. Article accompanied by a fascinating map, showing all CIE lines actually "on the ground" as at 1956.

A number of minor branches were indicated as "closed but line still in situ", with a code furnishing amplifying details. Some of these lines were thus shown as still carrying seasonal freight and / or "fair day" type specials a la Tralee & Dingle; the description "no traffic" was applied to a few: if I recall correctly -- Athboy, Killashandra, and Cashel branches, and the Streamstown -- Clara line. Mild wondering prompted, as to why the track was left in place on these totally disused lines (some other lines known to have been closed completely by CIE in the ten years-odd before 1956, were not shown on the map) -- though one figures that all this could have been down to any number of reasons.

Yes, that would be correct. A number of lines lost their passenger services early on, some losing both full passenger and freight services, but remained open for seasonal traffic such as beat and passenger specials. Others such as the bray to harcourt street suburban line in county dublin, and the waterford tramore line, were torn up rather quick after services ended (the later line making a proffit when closed apparently)

 

[Calthrop]

Yes, that would be correct. A number of lines lost their passenger services early on, some losing both full passenger and freight services, but remained open for seasonal traffic such as beat and passenger specials. Others such as the bray to harcourt street suburban line in county dublin, and the waterford tramore line , were torn up rather quick after services ended (the later line making a proffit when closed apparently)

I recall from the "Trains Illustrated" map, the notation on one of my favourites, the Ballinascarthy -- Courtmacsherry branch: "closed but line still in situ", detailed "beet season traffic; passenger specials in summer".

The Waterford & Tramore has always likewise endeared itself to me. 5ft 3in gauge but totally isolated from the rest of the system, no intermediate stations -- splendidly bonkers (not that we on the "other island" didn't have plenty of equally strange stuff on the minor-railways scene) ! I feel that the W&T would have made, in the context of these present times, a wonderful tourist-line gig -- including preserved steam running on it: its precipitate closure and demolition, much to regret. Still: that was in 1960 / 61 -- "with hindsight, all men are wise".

 

[Elwyn]

The line from Athenry to Collooney closed in 1963 and there has been no traffic for nearly 50 years (I think the last movement was an RPSI special in the 1970s), but the rails are still in situ, severed now in various places due to redevelopment, but still there. Some signals and signal boxes were still in place last time I passed by though most have been vandalized and are in very poor condition. I think the rails are very old indeed. Possibly dating back to the early 1900s or even earlier and are completely life expired. Their scrap value is probably pretty low, and perhaps just not worth the effort of recovering them.

 

[DT611]

The Waterford & Tramore has always likewise endeared itself to me. 5ft 3in gauge but totally isolated from the rest of the system, no intermediate stations -- splendidly bonkers (not that we on the "other island" didn't have plenty of equally strange stuff on the minor-railways scene) ! I feel that the W&T would have made, in the context of these present times, a wonderful tourist-line gig -- including preserved steam running on it: its precipitate closure and demolition, much to regret. Still: that was in 1960 / 61 -- "with hindsight, all men are wise".

Indeed, it really is a "what could have been"

 

[Calthrop]

The line from Athenry to Collooney closed in 1963 and there has been no traffic for nearly 50 years (I think the last movement was an RPSI special in the 1970s), but the rails are still in situ, severed now in various places due to redevelopment, but still there. Some signals and signal boxes were still in place last time I passed by though most have been vandalized and are in very poor condition. I think the rails are very old indeed. Possibly dating back to the early 1900s or even earlier and are completely life expired. Their scrap value is probably pretty low, and perhaps just not worth the effort of recovering them.

Interesting to find that scrap iron does not equal solid gold everywhere, in all circumstances -- "rails still in situ" on long-unused lines, maybe an indication of Ireland's relative prosperity nowadays? I gather that in these times, "rail theft" (for sale to dodgy scrap dealers) is a severe scourge of lesser railways -- including those which still see some traffic -- in Eastern Europe, and the developing world. A thing not unknown in Ireland in past times, I understand: as with the tale of the short-lived Birr -- Portumna Bridge line in the 19th century. "Other times, other habits."

 

[AndyW33]

The line from Athenry to Collooney closed in 1963 and there has been no traffic for nearly 50 years (I think the last movement was an RPSI special in the 1970s), but the rails are still in situ, severed now in various places due to redevelopment, but still there. Some signals and signal boxes were still in place last time I passed by though most have been vandalized and are in very poor condition. I think the rails are very old indeed. Possibly dating back to the early 1900s or even earlier and are completely life expired. Their scrap value is probably pretty low, and perhaps just not worth the effort of recovering them.

I was on the RPSI "Burma Road" railtour of 1975 which covered the Claremorris to Collooney section of this line, and the "Cu Na Mara" tour of 1977 which covered (on two successive days) both Limerick-Athenry and Athenry-Claremorris. Athenry-Claremorris was covered again in 1979, and twice in the 1980s.
The Burma Road tour may well have been the last passenger working between Claremorris and Collooney.

 

[DT611]

Interesting to find that scrap iron does not equal solid gold everywhere, in all circumstances -- "rails still in situ" on long-unused lines, maybe an indication of Ireland's relative prosperity nowadays? I gather that in these times, "rail theft" (for sale to dodgy scrap dealers) is a severe scourge of lesser railways -- including those which still see some traffic -- in Eastern Europe, and the developing world. A thing not unknown in Ireland in past times, I understand: as with the tale of the short-lived Birr -- Portumna Bridge line in the 19th century. "Other times, other habits."

The removal of lines was also a symbolic jesture, at least in the case of lines which attracted huge opposition to their closure.

 

[alastair]

I was on the RPSI "Burma Road" railtour of 1975 which covered the Claremorris to Collooney section of this line, and the "Cu Na Mara" tour of 1977 which covered (on two successive days) both Limerick-Athenry and Athenry-Claremorris. Athenry-Claremorris was covered again in 1979, and twice in the 1980s.
The Burma Road tour may well have been the last passenger working between Claremorris and Collooney.

There was also a fledgling preserved steam operation from Tuam to Athenry which called at Ballyglulin. It was definitely running in 1990,but I believe ceased shortly after that.

 

[DT611]

There was also a fledgling preserved steam operation from Tuam to Athenry which called at Ballyglulin. It was definitely running in 1990,but I believe ceased shortly after that.

Thats right, they were called west rail. They ended in about 1994. In their short time they achieved a hell of a lot, a shame it couldn't have lasted. However, they achieved what many thought impossible in the first place, for which many are eternally greatful for. The same can be said for other efforts such as the gsrps.