Query about London ticket offered by TrainSplit

[arb]

Journey: single from Cambridge to Paddington, any off-peak time (e.g. 12:00 today), no railcard, flexible times selected to prevent advance tickets being offered.

TrainSplit suggests an itinerary of Cambridge to Liverpool Street (depart 12:03, arrive 13:15) and then Crossrail to Paddington (depart 13:31, arrive 13:42), with a fare of £24.90. The ticket is a super-off-peak single from Cambridge to London Underground Zones 1-3, and is described as "Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals. Restriction D1 applies".

Question 1: How is a ticket which is described as not valid via London Terminals valid for a journey which involves a change at Liverpool Street and a final destination of Paddington?

Question 2: How do I find this ticket on brfares.com? I've tried destinations of "London Zones 1-3" and "Zone U123* Londn" but it doesn't show up in the results for either.

 

[Watershed]

It sounds like TrainSplit is selling a 'compound fare' - i.e. a fare that's constituted of a 'normal' fare plus an add-on. In this case the normal fare is from Cambridge to Tottenham Hale, and the add-on is effectively a single for a journey to any destination in Underground Zones 1-3.

Question 1: How is a ticket which is described as not valid via London Terminals valid for a journey which involves a change at Liverpool Street and a final destination of Paddington?

As above, this fare is a 'compound fare' and so the 'not via London' restriction applies only to the portion to Tottenham Hale. The fact that it is issued to Underground Zones 1-3 means that it has validity on the Underground in Zones 1-3. Underground tickets with validity in Zones 1-3 are interavailable on National Rail services between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street, and the Elizabeth line is similarly interavailable for Underground tickets with validity in the relevant Zones between Stratford/Abbey Wood and Paddington.

So TrainSplit is entirely correct to sell this ticket for this journey, even if it's perhaps not entirely obvious ot the average personhow or why the ticket is valid.

Another point worth noting is that even if TrainSplit had made a mistake, or the data contained an error which allowed the fare to be sold in conjunction with an itinerary that didn't meet the printed restrictions, you would still be contractually entitled to travel in accordance with the itinerary provided. This is a simple matter of contract and consumer law, although train operators don't tend to train their staff on such matters and so it's sadly common for this entitlement to be breached.

I wouldn't expect any difficulties in this case though, as the magnetic strip on the ticket should be correctly encoded to allow you through barriers as required, and the ticket is issued to the Underground Zones.

Question 2: How do I find this ticket on brfares.com? I've tried destinations of "London Zones 1-3" and "Zone U123* Londn" but it doesn't show up in the results for either.

As it's a compound fare, you won't find it on BR Fares or other industry sources. The Cambridge to Tottenham Hale element is in BR Fares (SOA, route 'not via London' - £21.20), but the Underground add-on isn't a standalone fare and is only documented in internal industry sources.

 

[arb]

Interesting ... I've never heard the term "compound fare" before.

I assume that a "compound fare" is not the same thing as a split ticket, because TrainSplit isn't showing me multiple tickets like it normally does for splits? Would it be valid for a train that doesn't call at Tottenham Hale (I think they all do, so this is only a theoretical question in this instance)?

Why do we have a "compound fare" to get to zone 3, but if I wanted to do this zone 1 or zone 2, that's not a compound fare, and there is an explicit Cambridge to Zone U1 or Zone U12 ticket shown in BRFares https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CBG&dest=0785&period=20230903 and https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CBG&dest=0790&period=20230903?

 

[Watershed]

Interesting ... I've never heard the term "compound fare" before.

I assume that a "compound fare" is not the same thing as a split ticket, because TrainSplit isn't showing me multiple tickets like it normally does for splits?

It's certainly a very niche product; I can't imagine many of them are sold. TrainSplit are one of the only retailers to sell them online - otherwise it'll mainly be ticket offices that sell them (where staff even know of their existence, and are asked and able to sell them).

A compound fare is one ticket, though priced using more than one underlying fare - hence why you're not seeing multiple tickets. In a way you can imagine it as being similar to a custom season ticket.

Would it be valid for a train that doesn't call at Tottenham Hale (I think they all do, so this is only a theoretical question in this instance)?

Yes, as you're not using a combination of tickets - you're still just using one ticket. As you say, it's a largely theoretical question for this journey, as all trains that go via Tottenham Hale call there, but it might not be quite as theoretical for other journeys.

I certainly see that there's scope for confusion, both on the part of passengers as well as staff, when you have things like 'not via London' tickets being valid via London as here, or 'not Underground' tickets being valid on the Underground as discussed in this thread! In an ideal world, compound fares wouldn't exist as you'd just have all the necessary fares defined in the first place.

Why do we have a "compound fare" to get to zone 3, but if I wanted to do this zone 1 or zone 2, that's not a compound fare, and there is an explicit Cambridge to Zone U1 or Zone U12 ticket shown in BRFares https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CBG&dest=0785&period=20230903 and https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CBG&dest=0790&period=20230903?

Quite simply, there is no fare defined from Cambridge to Zone U123*, so if you want to buy that you have no choice but to buy a compound fare (or combination of tickets). There aren't many origins for which there are fares to every combination of Underground Zones - Pricing Managers simply haven't ever created them, or if they did exist at one point, they were removed.

Indeed, for this journey there's no theoretical reason why the ticket needs to be to Zones 1-3; it's just that it's cheaper than a Zone U1* ticket and so this is what TrainSplit has decided to offer.

 

[bspahh]

If its a practical question of "what is the cheapest off peak ticket from Cambridge to Paddington", then Greater Anglia has a "Hare Fare" sale https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/harefares where Cambridge to Liverpool Street is £10 for an off peak day return. Then you can pay £2.70 with a contactless card from Liverpool Street to Paddington by the Elizabeth line.

You can't break your journey with a Hare fare, but you don't have to use the return. They are only available as digital e-tickets booked online with the Greater Anglia website, app or by phone 0345 600 7245 (option 2) .

 

[arb]

Thanks for the answers so far. Some bonus/awkward questions

Do I have to go via Tottenham Hale, even if not calling at it (I guess yes)? Would there be anything on the ticket at all to indicate the Tottenham Hale part of the journey (I guess no)? Can I go via Kings Cross instead of Liverpool Street on this ticket (I guess no)? And how would I know not to (I guess this is point where you tell me to stop digging )?

I've just managed to get TrainSplit to show me a £31 anytime day single to London Underground Zones 1 with the same "not valid via London Terminals" text. Is this a compound ticket via Finsbury Park https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=CBG&dest=FPK&rte=700&tkt=SDS, and the "right" way to go via Kings Cross/St Pancras? (It offers me this for both a fast train stopping train to Kings Cross and then the tube, or on a Thameslink to Farringdon and then Crossrail, EDIT: but not on a fast train to Kings Cross).

If its a practical question of "what is the cheapest off peak ticket from Cambridge to Paddington", then Greater Anglia has a "Hare Fare" sale

Thanks - in this instance I'm making a longer journey via Paddington that I already have tickets for. I was only using TrainSplit to look at timetable options during the overtime ban, and have gone off onto a massive (but fascinating) tangent after seeing the compund fare quoted!

 

[Watershed]

Do I have to go via Tottenham Hale, even if not calling at it (I guess yes)? Would there be anything on the ticket at all to indicate the Tottenham Hale part of the journey (I guess no)? Can I go via Kings Cross instead of Liverpool Street on this ticket (I guess no)? And how would I know not to (I guess this is point where you tell me to stop digging )?

There's nothing on the ticket that would indicate you have to go via Tottenham Hale (the itinerary would only be shown on an e-ticket, and seeing as it's a ticket to Underground Zones, by definition it can only be issued as a paper ticket). So in principle there's nothing stopping you from using it via other permitted routes from Cambridge to London, including to Kings Cross. Of course that's arguably not how the ticket is intended to be used.

It's also worth noting that this only works for Kings Cross because there is interavailability for Underground tickets with the relevant Zones on National Rail services between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross. It wouldn't work on other routes without such interavailability, or with a ticket that didn't include the relevant Zones.

I've just managed to get TrainSplit to show me a £31 anytime day single to London Underground Zones 1 with the same "not valid via London Terminals" text. Is this a compound ticket via Finsbury Park https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=CBG&dest=FPK&rte=700&tkt=SDS

I would presume so, though Finsbury Park is in Zone 2, so you'd expect a Zones 1-2 add-on at a price of £3.40. Not sure what's going on there, perhaps someone on the forum working for TrainSplit or FastJP can look into that? (@Adam Williams)

and the "right" way to go via Kings Cross/St Pancras? (It offers me this for both a fast train stopping train to Kings Cross and then the tube, or on a Thameslink to Farringdon and then Crossrail, EDIT: but not on a fast train to Kings Cross).

The train in the itinerary has to stop at the "changeover" station for the add-on fare to be offered, but once issued I don't see there's anything that restricts you to trains that stop there. This is clearly the fare you're "intended" to use for travel this way, but as mentioned above, I don't see anything that stops you from using a ticket issued in conjunction with an itinerary via Tottenham Hale, via Finsbury Park instead. Though no doubt this might be looked at closer by Pricing Managers now that you've raised it... If you'd like this thread to be hidden, please feel free to report it!

 

[MrJeeves]

I would presume so, though Finsbury Park is in Zone 2, so you'd expect a Zones 1-2 add-on at a price of £3.40. Not sure what's going on there, perhaps someone on the forum working for TrainSplit or FastJP can look into that?

For what it's worth, I can only get a £31.40 ticket here. OP may have just rounded down to £31.



Searched Cambridge to LU & DLR Z1-2, stop or change at Finsbury Park.

Cambridge > London Underground and DLR Zones 1-2 - Search Results | TrainSplit

TrainSplit compares routes & fares to get the best value through split ticketing with no booking fee & saving up to 90%

trainsplit.com

 

[Watershed]

For what it's worth, I can only get a £31.40 ticket here. OP may have just rounded down to £31.

View attachment 143730

Searched Cambridge to LU & DLR Z1-2, stop or change at Finsbury Park.

Cambridge > London Underground and DLR Zones 1-2 - Search Results | TrainSplit

TrainSplit compares routes & fares to get the best value through split ticketing with no booking fee & saving up to 90%

trainsplit.com

That makes more sense.

 

[arb]

Definitely £31 exactly for me.

I searched Cambridge to Paddington, 6pm departure this evening, with avoid Liverpool Street in the advanced options. £31 fare offered on the 17:53 from Cambridge and then 19:12 from Farringdon, arriving at Paddington 19:20.

 

[MrJeeves]

Definitely £31 exactly for me.

I searched Cambridge to Paddington, 6pm departure this evening, with avoid Liverpool Street in the advanced options. £31 fare offered on the 17:53 from Cambridge and then 19:12 from Farringdon, arriving at Paddington 19:20.

That'd be because Farringdon to Paddington only passes through Zone 1, so we'd only charge the Z1 add-on fare of £3.

From the iKB before it goes private:

Adult Single Fare	From March 2023
Underground/Elizabeth line (Paddington - Abbey Wood)/DLR Zones entered or crossed from interchange	£
U1	3.00
U12	3.40
U123	3.70
U1234	4.40
U12345	5.10
U123456	5.60
U2, U3, U4, U5, U6	1.90
U23, U34, U45, U56	2.10
U234, U345, U456	2.80
U2345, U3456	3.00
U2356	3.40

 

[arb]

But the base ticket (if that's the correct term) is the £28 Cambridge to Finsbury Park, not to Farringdon. Or at least we're assuming that's what the base ticket is.

 

[MrJeeves]

But the base ticket (if that's the correct term) is the £28 Cambridge to Finsbury Park, not to Farringdon. Or at least we're assuming that's what the base ticket is.

Yes, this slipped my mind. I'll get back to you soon.

 

[avid2424]

Is there an answer to a supplementary question (to the original question)

The posts so far suggest it is one ticket.

With the fare being calculated using the price of a "base ticket" plus an "add on fare".

And the add on fare reflects travel within the London Zones

And I would have thought that an add on fare that takes a price from something that includes U1, should then create a ticket that DOES NOT HAVE any reference to "Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals."

So why is "Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals." being displayed when you try to buy this one ticket using the Forum's Rail Ticket site

And most especially when the forum details an itinerary that spells out that the journey includes travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals

 

[arb]

Up-thread somebody linked to another thread on a similar topic. That thread had a post which said that the confusing validity text was trying to be resolved but the timescales were uncertain: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ith-route-not-underground.253571/post-6379242

 

[MrJeeves]

The posts so far suggest it is one ticket.

It is

With the fare being calculated using the price of a "base ticket" plus an "add on fare".

Correct

And the add on fare reflects travel within the London Zones

Spot on

And I would have thought that an add on fare that takes a price from something that includes U1, should then create a ticket that DOES NOT HAVE any reference to "Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals."

So why is "Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals." being displayed when you try to buy this one ticket using the Forum's Rail Ticket site

This is, as per the other thread, because the original fare the compound fare is based off of has this restriction. When you're travelling on this portion of the ticket, you still need to adhere to this route.

It's confusing, but there's no real solution for this at the moment from our end.

 

[avid2424]

If this thread had not caught my eye and I had simply bought this ticket via the forum it would never have crossed my mind that I would need to divide my ticket into two portions because one rule applies to one portion and another rule applies to the other portion

I buy tickets through the forum because I like the prices. I was not expecting to be presented with a message that makes no sense - the not using London Terminals given that the ticket is obviously valid via London Terminals

 

[MrJeeves]

Most people who buy tickets follow the itinerary provided when they buy them.

If you follow the itinerary, your ticket will always be valid as it was sold by an accredited retailer, even if we've made a mistake.

I do agree that having the wording isn't ideal, and if there was something we could do about it now, we would, but we can't.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If this thread had not caught my eye and I had simply bought this ticket via the forum it would never have crossed my mind that I would need to divide my ticket into two portions because one rule applies to one portion and another rule applies to the other portion

It's a fair point; there's no technical reason why the system can't tell you that the ticket splits between National Rail and U-zone validity at Tottenham Hale and that the restriction only applies to the first part of the journey: the journey planner knows this internally because it is calculated the fare like that. And actually Trainsplit usually does display a message about interavailability when it sells you a U-zone ticket valid partly on National Rail; I think the message has got lost somewhere here because of the way the compound fare was calculated.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's a fair point; there's no technical reason why the system can't tell you that the ticket splits between National Rail and U-zone validity at Tottenham Hale and that the restriction only applies to the first part of the journey: the journey planner knows this internally because it is calculated the fare like that. And actually Trainsplit usually does display a message about interavailability when it sells you a U-zone ticket valid partly on National Rail; I think the message has got lost somewhere here because of the way the compound fare was calculated.

Indeed, the journey planner only tells its API clients the origin, dest and route code. None of the details around how the add-on fare was constructed are actually conveyed past the boundary of the fares engine - which as you point out, clearly knows how it got to the keyed fare in the first place and the original fare that was in use - so the retailer has no visibility of any of this because it's not in the search response.

This has been flagged as an issue that needs looking at - it's not just customer information it impacts, it causes problems elsewhere in fulfilment too. I think some of these details were simply overlooked back when this was originally implemented, combined with a changing landscape when it comes to e.g. reservations.

 

[yorkie]

Is there an answer to a supplementary question (to the original question)

The posts so far suggest it is one ticket.

With the fare being calculated using the price of a "base ticket" plus an "add on fare".

And the add on fare reflects travel within the London Zones

And I would have thought that an add on fare that takes a price from something that includes U1, should then create a ticket that DOES NOT HAVE any reference to "Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals."

You are asking for an exclusion to be added, which prevents add-ons being issued for tickets which have that particular routeing?

Rail Delivery Group do read this forum and so they may well implement a negative change of this nature; this would probably involve editing the relevant iKB page with a special rule, however it would be a pain to implement as it wouldn't be in the data.

So why is "Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals." being displayed when you try to buy this one ticket using the Forum's Rail Ticket site

And most especially when the forum details an itinerary that spells out that the journey includes travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals

For the same reason that an LNER Only would be displayed, i.e. the routeing does not apply to the London Underground element.

Definitely £31 exactly for me.

I searched Cambridge to Paddington, 6pm departure this evening, with avoid Liverpool Street in the advanced options. £31 fare offered on the 17:53 from Cambridge and then 19:12 from Farringdon, arriving at Paddington 19:20.

OK this one is a problem because Zone 2 validity should be included, so that needs to be looked at. Edit: this is now fixed

 

[MrJeeves]

But the base ticket (if that's the correct term) is the £28 Cambridge to Finsbury Park, not to Farringdon. Or at least we're assuming that's what the base ticket is.

This was a data issue and has now been fixed so we will correctly offer the £31.40 compound fare to Z1-2 instead for this journey.