Query:NR Labels on Tube Map

[subk2010]

I recently discovered that there are several stations on the Tube Map, which National Rail Trains stops during the day, are not labelled the NR mark.

For example, Imperial Wharf station on the West London Line, Southern Trains call at this station every hour currently, but the station is not labelled an interchange with the NR.

This also happens to Southall, West Drayton, etc.

I can understand some stations aren’t labelled because there are very few NR Trains calls. But at least, this explanation doesn’t work with Imperial Wharf station. I wonder how TfL choose to label the NR Mark on the Tube Map.

I am new to the forum so sorry if there were any discussions about it before.

 

[Adoarable]

There's no need to show NR interchange at Imperial Wharf because there shouldn't be a need for passengers to interchange there rather than Clapham Junction or West Brompton. The same goes for West Drayton - why would you ever change there rather than Hayes & Harlington or Slough? Removing the NR interchange symbol reduces clutter on the map.

Hanwell is only served by TFL Rail so that shouldn't have an NR symbol in any case.

 

[LLivery]

It's for **interchanges** rather than served by. If you compare to the rail & tube map of London, you'll see the symbols are shown at junction stations (where two rail lines meet) or, at stations where the express trains that parallel serve (think Wembley Central).

For example, New Cross Gate - West Croydon is deep Southern territory, with all stations served by trains from London Bridge, but only 4 of them have the NR symbol:

• New Cross Gate - indicating where direct trains towards/from London Bridge diverge
• Sydenham - to indicate trains via Balham to London Victoria diverge here
• Norwood Junction - to indicate fast trains from London Bridge, plus slow trains diverging for Crystal Palace or heading towards East Croydon
• West Croydon - to indicate trains heading towards Sutton or Norbury

 

[matt_world2004]

I recently discovered that there are several stations on the Tube Map, which National Rail Trains stops during the day, are not labelled the NR mark.

For example, Imperial Wharf station on the West London Line, Southern Trains call at this station every hour currently, but the station is not labelled an interchange with the NR.

This also happens to Southall, West Drayton, etc.

I can understand some stations aren’t labelled because there are very few NR Trains calls. But at least, this explanation doesn’t work with Imperial Wharf station. I wonder how TfL choose to label the NR Mark on the Tube Map.

I am new to the forum so sorry if there were any discussions about it before.

They will only mark the first and last stop of the interchange point on lines that run parallel to the tfl line imperial wharf has Kensington Olympia on one side and Clapham junction on the other side. Kensington Olympia is only marked as an interchange because of the district line and wouldn't be marked normally as it is bookended by Clapham junction and shepherds Bush. Same with West Drayton no one is changing from West Drayton to a tfl rail train or vice versa so no interchange.

 

[rebmcr]

There's no need to show NR interchange at Imperial Wharf because there shouldn't be a need for passengers to interchange there rather than Clapham Junction or West Brompton. The same goes for West Drayton - why would you ever change there rather than Hayes & Harlington or Slough? Removing the NR interchange symbol reduces clutter on the map.

Hanwell is only served by TFL Rail so that shouldn't have an NR symbol in any case.

There is a niche rationale for changing part-way along some overlapping sections of route (rather than at one of the converging or diverging stations), in order to maximise one's chances of securing a seat during busy periods.

That is, of course, not even close to the threshold of justifying map clutter.

 

[Lucan]

There is a niche rationale for changing part-way along some overlapping sections of route

Another reason is if the change needs less walking between platforms, or being at the same platform. But seasoned travellers will discover such advantages for themselves.

 

[jopsuk]

it's a similar rationale to stations between where lines meet/diverge having tick marks, not interchange blobs (unless step free)

 

[pelli]

Similarly, on the Car Line Diagrams displayed overhead inside the carriages, not every station is listed as an interchange when lines run parallel.

TfL publishes current and past versions online, and one could spend many hours poring over all the interesting details, such as how the amount of District Line shown on the Circle Line CLD has varied throughout the years:

Car Line Diagrams

This page collates Car Line Diagrams and Car Line Diagram stickers for all Tube lines, TFL Rail, London Overground and DLR dating from 1996 to 2015

tfl.gov.uk

One detail relevant to this thread is the southern edge of the Circle Line where it runs parallel to (really on the same tracks as, except some bits at the ends) the District Line, comprising the stations Gloucester Road, South Kensington, ..., Monument, Tower Hill. Over the years since 1999, the Circle Line CLD has been showing interchange to District Line at GR, SK and TH but not M, with the interchange at GR removed since 2009 (but making a brief reappearance in 2015). Meanwhile, the District Line showed interchange to Circle Line at all four stations, with GR removed since 2010.

I believe the end stations GR and TH have more than just two platforms (one per direction), so interchanging there might be complex and hence an interchange at SK or M encouraged, but I'd be interested to see a more detailed explanation regarding the removal of Gloucester Road as interchange in 2009/2010 and the asymmetry between District and Circle at Monument.

 

[Dstock7080]

Westbound District trains used platform 2 during late evenings and Sundays which offered interchange with Circle trains.
This was altered so that District trains only use platform 1 at all times and is now impossible for westbound District trains to use platform 2.

Eastbound terminating District trains use platform 2 at Tower Hill, thus requires a change of platform for continuing passengers, now helped by lift installation.

 

[subk2010]

Thank you all

 

[Adlington]

There's no need to show NR interchange at Imperial Wharf because there shouldn't be a need for passengers to interchange there rather than Clapham Junction or West Brompton.

And why not? Maybe it's less crowded? Who decided where passengers should and should not interchange?

 

[Ianno87]

And why not? Maybe it's less crowded? Who decided where passengers should and should not interchange?

So if you're actually interchanging at Imperial Wharf, it will be between the Overground and Southern service, either northbound to northbound or southbound to southbound.

The only logical northbound interchange is Southern to Overground, as one would not (generally*) get an Overground train starting at Clapham to change after one stop to a service that also calls at Clapham.

So you must be doing a journey from Wandsworth Common (or south thereof on Southern) to Willesden Jn (or north/east thereof on Overground). In which case you have a choice of Imperial Wharf, Kenny O or Shepherds Bush, all of which are same platform interchanges.

In which case the NR interchange logo at both Kenny O and Shepherds Bush will suffice. Otherwise the map will be a case of "too much information" on what is supposed to be a simple map. Nothing to stop those "in the know" from changing somewhere quieter.

(*I guess if you were coming from somewhere like Barnes and bound for Harrow, changing to Overground at Clapham and then the Southern at Imperial Wharf has the advantage of saving a long interchange walk at Clapham Junction!)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So if you're actually interchanging at Imperial Wharf, it will be between the Overground and Southern service, either northbound to northbound or southbound to southbound.

The only logical northbound interchange is Southern to Overground, as one would not (generally*) get an Overground train starting at Clapham to change after one stop to a service that also calls at Clapham.

So you must be doing a journey from Wandsworth Common (or south thereof on Southern) to Willesden Jn (or north/east thereof on Overground). In which case you have a choice of Imperial Wharf, Kenny O or Shepherds Bush, all of which are same platform interchanges.

In which case the NR interchange logo at both Kenny O and Shepherds Bush will suffice. Otherwise the map will be a case of "too much information" on what is supposed to be a simple map. Nothing to stop those "in the know" from changing somewhere quieter.

(*I guess if you were coming from somewhere like Barnes and bound for Harrow, changing to Overground at Clapham and then the Southern at Imperial Wharf has the advantage of saving a long interchange walk at Clapham Junction!)

Fully agree; it's also far easier to change platforms at the other stations as well. I did once try a haulage leap from one platform to the other at Imperial Wharf only to discover that there is a passback set between the two sides meaning you can't go straight out from one side and back in on the other despite them being completely separate barrier lines with no way of entering from the wrong side...