Query on two old Manchester bus routes

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When did the express 90 bus service last run from Stevenson Square to Rochdale?

I vaguely remember a service 4 running to Bamford but unsure where it started from in Manchester. When did that service finish?

 

[geoffk]

I have Colin Reeve's book "Rochdale Corporation Transport" (Venture Publications). The only reference I can find is that service 90 was renumbered 23 by SELNEC. in 1974. Before 1969 it was jointly operated by Rochdale, Oldham and Manchester Corporations. Service 4 Norden to Manchester was operated only by Manchester and ran from Cannon Street. The database Timetable World doesn't seem to be any help as municipal operators are not yet included. Not much help I'm afraid.

 

[Ken H]

There are a couple of Manchester bus maps on timetable world that may help.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Always thought the 23 was the bus service from Flixton (Red Lion) to Manchester (Piccadilly Gardens). Maybe there was more than one such-numbered service running to/from Manchester in the 1970s!

 

[4cryingoutloud]

I vaguely remember a service 4 running to Bamford but unsure where it started from in Manchester. When did that service finish?

In GMPTE days it ran as service 167 from Norden to Manchester, via Heywood and Cheetham Hill. First Manchester withdrew all but the weekday peak hour journeys in the mid 2000s, which these days run as 162 via Langley and Middleton by Diamond North West.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The 23 certainly survived beyond deregulation though its main use was to provide a quicker service between Manchester and Chadderton, not the most direct route to Rochdale. The 23 was a limited stop version of the 24. It was only at deregulation that a better fast service to Rochdale was introduced courtesy of the 16, a limited stop version of the 17 which continues to provide the main bus link to Rochdale even today.

As for Bamford and Norden the GMT era service to/from Manchester was the 167 which ran via Heywood, Rhodes and Cheetham Hill. There was also a peak-hour limited stop version numbered 165. These days there is only a peak-hour service 162, with a change in Heywood or Rochdale required at other times.

Apologies for some duplication with the previous post, divided attention I'm afraid.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Always thought the 23 was the bus service from Flixton (Red Lion) to Manchester (Piccadilly Gardens). Maybe there was more than one such-numbered service running to/from Manchester in the 1970s!

Indeed it was, but it became the 257 and I assume this would be at the same time that the 90 was renumbered to 23. 1974 sounds about right to me for the date the Urmston - Manchester routes 3/5/12 were also renumbered, much to my mother's displeasure!

 

[Statto]

Here's a site that has some info, the 23 they have is the post d - reg 23, & some info on the 167

Timetables

RAILWAYMEDIA-British Railway Pictures

www.railwaymedia.co.uk

 

[lincman]

The 23 certainly survived beyond deregulation though its main use was to provide a quicker service between Manchester and Chadderton, not the most direct route to Rochdale. The 23 was a limited stop version of the 24. It was only at deregulation that a better fast service to Rochdale was introduced courtesy of the 16, a limited stop version of the 17 which continues to provide the main bus link to Rochdale even today.

As for Bamford and Norden the GMT era service to/from Manchester was the 167 which ran via Heywood, Rhodes and Cheetham Hill. There was also a peak-hour limited stop version numbered 165. These days there is only a peak-hour service 162, with a change in Heywood or Rochdale required at other times.

Apologies for some duplication with the previous post, divided attention I'm afraid.

The 23 was indeed the renumbered 90 which was a fast service from Rochdale to Manchester( 38 minutes running time) being limited stop from Rochdale to Royton the non stop to Stevenson Square, the stop at Middleton Road Chadderton was introduced when the renumbering took place. The 24 was an all day limited stop service. I think it is debateable whether the 16 was a better fast service(38 minutes running time), but that service ran for many years before dereg as the number 8.
The 167 was as stated the renumbered number 4 which ran from Cannon Street to Bamford (Bagslate Moor Road) but was extended to Norden, the 165 actually ran to Heywood Darn Hill estate from Cannon Street at peak hours off peak it ran from Darn Hill to Heywood centre.
I have to admit a fondness for the 23 as I used to drive that service.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The 23 was indeed the renumbered 90 which was a fast service from Rochdale to Manchester( 38 minutes running time) being limited stop from Rochdale to Royton the non stop to Stevenson Square, the stop at Middleton Road Chadderton was introduced when the renumbering took place. The 24 was an all day limited stop service. I think it is debateable whether the 16 was a better fast service(38 minutes running time), but that service ran for many years before dereg as the number 8.
The 167 was as stated the renumbered number 4 which ran from Cannon Street to Bamford (Bagslate Moor Road) but was extended to Norden, the 165 actually ran to Heywood Darn Hill estate from Cannon Street at peak hours off peak it ran from Darn Hill to Heywood centre.
I have to admit a fondness for the 23 as I used to drive that service.

Thanks for the corrections. My positive view of the 16 was because Rochdale depot had an allocation of Express vehicles to cover it: those big high-backed seats, regardless of vehicle type, were wonderfully comfortable and I was often able to doze off in them! Such an irony that they were soon joined in the fleet by the incredibly nasty Dodge minibuses.

 

[jp4712]

Send a mail to the timetable team at the museum of transport, mail [email protected] for the attention of Paul Wilkinson.

 

[Tim33160]

I have spoken to Paul at Boyle St. Boyle St maintains timetable collection with over 16000 leaflets catalogued since dereg plus more before then . He tells me from their records:

MCTD service 90 Mcr - Rochdale was renumbered 23 on 2 Dec 1973 ( as a precursor to the general SELNEC renumbering scheme into 1 to 699 scheme)

MCTD 4 started from Cannon St in Manchester
The route history is:

25-10-31 Cannon Street - Norden section of Gatley - Norden (service 1) renumbered 4 on split of service 1.

**-9-39 Wartime measures, service curtailed to operate HEATON PARK (Victoria Avenue) - corner of NORDEN ROAD AND WAR OFFICE ROAD

late 41 Further wartime measures, service cut to serve only the 35 MU camps, running RHODES - Birch - HEYWOOD during the day, with peak-hour journeys to MANCHESTER (Cannon Street)

by 4-43 Full route reinstated except for am, post-peak until 1325 hours and after 1900, M-F, Su; on Sa starts running mid-morning

late 45 Service from CANNON STREET-BAMFORD reinstated, alternate journeys terminate at HEYWOOD

2-3-47 All journeys extended to BAMFORD (Edenfield Road/Bagslate Moor Road)

2-5-66 Extended to NORDEN (Edenfield Road), service still every 30 minutes

25-9-67 Operation to one-man double-decker

19-1-69 Rerouted in city centre as result of Market Street one-way system

1-11-69 To SELNEC

08/10/73 Renumbered 167 Continues through SELNEC and GMT to De-Reg

24/9/79 Terminus moved into Arndale Bus Stn (opening of Arndale Centre

167 Mcr - Cheetham Hill - Heywood – Norden

26/10/1986 GMB Express commercial service 0735 0805 IN 1700 1730 OUT. Hrly daily daytime NE by Yelloway.

24/05/1987 GMB MS hrly NE: Supported SuBH hrly by Yelloway;

30/08/1988 Addtl GMB Su hrly daytime service

28/05/1989 Supported Su hrly service now by Crosville on takeover of Yelloway company

21/04/1991 Supported Su 167 now by BEELINE on takeover of CROSVILLE

28/12/1991 MS daytime hrly by GMB, Supported Su hrly by BEE

22/03/1993 Supported Su now by Rossendale

06/09/1993 Timetable and stopping places revised

01/05/1994 Supported Su service revised. Now ev90mins

07/05/1995 Daily service now operated by Citibus

05/02/1996 Citibus having been taken over by GMN. All jnys now by GMN

30/09/1996 city centre routes revised (rationalised after temporary changes due Manchester Bomb)

20/10/1996 Minor timetable and operator revision: Now by Mayne

29/08/1999 Su 0900 from Mcr, 2015 from Norden withdrawn. Su now run by ROS

12/11/2000 F-Mcr jnys diverted to start finish at Piccadilly Gardens, in by Church St Oldham St ; out via Lever St, Stevenson Sq, Oldham St, Swan St

23/09/2001 Times changed. Main service by FM. Supported Su by ROS

28/07/2002 Most jnys to/from Piccadilly Gardens and leave via Church St. Times changed

31/08/2003 City centre route and times changed

29/03/2004 MF 0704 from Norden now 0653. 0701 from city retimed. 1714 from city now from Picc gdns as all other MS jnys.

24/10/2004 Su jnys now by JPT. Some jnys withdrawn & all PH jnys.

16/04/2007 Restricted drop offs MF 1631 1714 1731 1831 now first stop Bowker Vale tram stop

19/07/2009 MS times changed. Most jnys now by ROS t/a Easyride. Stopping places changed Rhodes - Mcr. Peak jnys still FM.

30/08/2009 Su jnys withdrawn

30/01/2012 Rossendalebus jnys withdrawn. Replaced by bus 467 between Norden and Heywood and the Heywood Local Link along Heywood Old Rd. 167 now MF peak FM service only

22/07/2012 City terminus now Shudehill not Piccadilly Gardens.

02/09/2012 Service withdrawn and replaced by bus 162 for journeys between Norden, Bamford, Heywood and Manchester city centre.

Hope this helps!

 

[lincman]

I have spoken to Paul at Boyle St. Boyle St maintains timetable collection with over 16000 leaflets catalogued since dereg plus more before then . He tells me from their records:

MCTD service 90 Mcr - Rochdale was renumbered 23 on 2 Dec 1973 ( as a precursor to the general SELNEC renumbering scheme into 1 to 699 scheme)

MCTD 4 started from Cannon St in Manchester
The route history is:

25-10-31 Cannon Street - Norden section of Gatley - Norden (service 1) renumbered 4 on split of service 1.

**-9-39 Wartime measures, service curtailed to operate HEATON PARK (Victoria Avenue) - corner of NORDEN ROAD AND WAR OFFICE ROAD

late 41 Further wartime measures, service cut to serve only the 35 MU camps, running RHODES - Birch - HEYWOOD during the day, with peak-hour journeys to MANCHESTER (Cannon Street)

by 4-43 Full route reinstated except for am, post-peak until 1325 hours and after 1900, M-F, Su; on Sa starts running mid-morning

late 45 Service from CANNON STREET-BAMFORD reinstated, alternate journeys terminate at HEYWOOD

2-3-47 All journeys extended to BAMFORD (Edenfield Road/Bagslate Moor Road)

2-5-66 Extended to NORDEN (Edenfield Road), service still every 30 minutes

25-9-67 Operation to one-man double-decker

19-1-69 Rerouted in city centre as result of Market Street one-way system

1-11-69 To SELNEC

08/10/73 Renumbered 167 Continues through SELNEC and GMT to De-Reg

24/9/79 Terminus moved into Arndale Bus Stn (opening of Arndale Centre

167 Mcr - Cheetham Hill - Heywood – Norden

26/10/1986 GMB Express commercial service 0735 0805 IN 1700 1730 OUT. Hrly daily daytime NE by Yelloway.

24/05/1987 GMB MS hrly NE: Supported SuBH hrly by Yelloway;

30/08/1988 Addtl GMB Su hrly daytime service

28/05/1989 Supported Su hrly service now by Crosville on takeover of Yelloway company

21/04/1991 Supported Su 167 now by BEELINE on takeover of CROSVILLE

28/12/1991 MS daytime hrly by GMB, Supported Su hrly by BEE

22/03/1993 Supported Su now by Rossendale

06/09/1993 Timetable and stopping places revised

01/05/1994 Supported Su service revised. Now ev90mins

07/05/1995 Daily service now operated by Citibus

05/02/1996 Citibus having been taken over by GMN. All jnys now by GMN

30/09/1996 city centre routes revised (rationalised after temporary changes due Manchester Bomb)

20/10/1996 Minor timetable and operator revision: Now by Mayne

29/08/1999 Su 0900 from Mcr, 2015 from Norden withdrawn. Su now run by ROS

12/11/2000 F-Mcr jnys diverted to start finish at Piccadilly Gardens, in by Church St Oldham St ; out via Lever St, Stevenson Sq, Oldham St, Swan St

23/09/2001 Times changed. Main service by FM. Supported Su by ROS

28/07/2002 Most jnys to/from Piccadilly Gardens and leave via Church St. Times changed

31/08/2003 City centre route and times changed

29/03/2004 MF 0704 from Norden now 0653. 0701 from city retimed. 1714 from city now from Picc gdns as all other MS jnys.

24/10/2004 Su jnys now by JPT. Some jnys withdrawn & all PH jnys.

16/04/2007 Restricted drop offs MF 1631 1714 1731 1831 now first stop Bowker Vale tram stop

19/07/2009 MS times changed. Most jnys now by ROS t/a Easyride. Stopping places changed Rhodes - Mcr. Peak jnys still FM.

30/08/2009 Su jnys withdrawn

30/01/2012 Rossendalebus jnys withdrawn. Replaced by bus 467 between Norden and Heywood and the Heywood Local Link along Heywood Old Rd. 167 now MF peak FM service only

22/07/2012 City terminus now Shudehill not Piccadilly Gardens.

02/09/2012 Service withdrawn and replaced by bus 162 for journeys between Norden, Bamford, Heywood and Manchester city centre.

Hope this helps!

Many thanks for that comprehensive review of the 2 services, it would appear that the norden service has had something of a chequered career compared with the 90. It is strange to see that early services provided far more comprehensive cross city journeys, and I sometimes think that we would be better with these links restored.

 

[Ken H]

I have spoken to Paul at Boyle St. Boyle St maintains timetable collection with over 16000 leaflets catalogued since dereg plus more before then . He tells me from their records:

MCTD service 90 Mcr - Rochdale was renumbered 23 on 2 Dec 1973 ( as a precursor to the general SELNEC renumbering scheme into 1 to 699 scheme)

MCTD 4 started from Cannon St in Manchester
The route history is:

25-10-31 Cannon Street - Norden section of Gatley - Norden (service 1) renumbered 4 on split of service 1.

**-9-39 Wartime measures, service curtailed to operate HEATON PARK (Victoria Avenue) - corner of NORDEN ROAD AND WAR OFFICE ROAD

late 41 Further wartime measures, service cut to serve only the 35 MU camps, running RHODES - Birch - HEYWOOD during the day, with peak-hour journeys to MANCHESTER (Cannon Street)

by 4-43 Full route reinstated except for am, post-peak until 1325 hours and after 1900, M-F, Su; on Sa starts running mid-morning

late 45 Service from CANNON STREET-BAMFORD reinstated, alternate journeys terminate at HEYWOOD

2-3-47 All journeys extended to BAMFORD (Edenfield Road/Bagslate Moor Road)

2-5-66 Extended to NORDEN (Edenfield Road), service still every 30 minutes

25-9-67 Operation to one-man double-decker

19-1-69 Rerouted in city centre as result of Market Street one-way system

1-11-69 To SELNEC

08/10/73 Renumbered 167 Continues through SELNEC and GMT to De-Reg

24/9/79 Terminus moved into Arndale Bus Stn (opening of Arndale Centre

167 Mcr - Cheetham Hill - Heywood – Norden

26/10/1986 GMB Express commercial service 0735 0805 IN 1700 1730 OUT. Hrly daily daytime NE by Yelloway.

24/05/1987 GMB MS hrly NE: Supported SuBH hrly by Yelloway;

30/08/1988 Addtl GMB Su hrly daytime service

28/05/1989 Supported Su hrly service now by Crosville on takeover of Yelloway company

21/04/1991 Supported Su 167 now by BEELINE on takeover of CROSVILLE

28/12/1991 MS daytime hrly by GMB, Supported Su hrly by BEE

22/03/1993 Supported Su now by Rossendale

06/09/1993 Timetable and stopping places revised

01/05/1994 Supported Su service revised. Now ev90mins

07/05/1995 Daily service now operated by Citibus

05/02/1996 Citibus having been taken over by GMN. All jnys now by GMN

30/09/1996 city centre routes revised (rationalised after temporary changes due Manchester Bomb)

20/10/1996 Minor timetable and operator revision: Now by Mayne

29/08/1999 Su 0900 from Mcr, 2015 from Norden withdrawn. Su now run by ROS

12/11/2000 F-Mcr jnys diverted to start finish at Piccadilly Gardens, in by Church St Oldham St ; out via Lever St, Stevenson Sq, Oldham St, Swan St

23/09/2001 Times changed. Main service by FM. Supported Su by ROS

28/07/2002 Most jnys to/from Piccadilly Gardens and leave via Church St. Times changed

31/08/2003 City centre route and times changed

29/03/2004 MF 0704 from Norden now 0653. 0701 from city retimed. 1714 from city now from Picc gdns as all other MS jnys.

24/10/2004 Su jnys now by JPT. Some jnys withdrawn & all PH jnys.

16/04/2007 Restricted drop offs MF 1631 1714 1731 1831 now first stop Bowker Vale tram stop

19/07/2009 MS times changed. Most jnys now by ROS t/a Easyride. Stopping places changed Rhodes - Mcr. Peak jnys still FM.

30/08/2009 Su jnys withdrawn

30/01/2012 Rossendalebus jnys withdrawn. Replaced by bus 467 between Norden and Heywood and the Heywood Local Link along Heywood Old Rd. 167 now MF peak FM service only

22/07/2012 City terminus now Shudehill not Piccadilly Gardens.

02/09/2012 Service withdrawn and replaced by bus 162 for journeys between Norden, Bamford, Heywood and Manchester city centre.

Hope this helps!

There is a 1963 Manc Corporation timtable newly on Timetable World if that helps. https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=3a7eed75-9ec8-4686-91d4-ca29807e139a