Question about (Avanti) standard premium

[OhNoAPacer]

If I was getting a Euston via Trent Valley service from Carlisle but changing to a via West Midlands service at Preston in order to get to either Coventry or Rugby could I get a standard premium upgrade at Carlisle for my entire journey or would I need to get Carlisle to Preston then Preston to Coventry/Rugby.

 

[30907]

If I was getting a Euston via Trent Valley service from Carlisle but changing to a via West Midlands service at Preston in order to get to either Coventry or Rugby could I get a standard premium upgrade at Carlisle for my entire journey or would I need to get Carlisle to Preston then Preston to Coventry/Rugby.

Standard Premium is an Avanti peculiarity. LNWR no longer offer First Class.
Sorry, misunderstood the question.

 

[A S Leib]

Standard Premium is an Avanti peculiarity. LNWR no longer offer First Class.

They weren't asking about LNR. They want to take an Avanti service from Carlisle to Preston (which would then presumably be nonstop from Warrington to Euston) and another Avanti service from Preston to Coventry or Rugby and aren't sure if they could pay for an upgrade for the second train when leaving Carlisle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes you can buy a through upgrade.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Thanks for replies. Just weighing up potential options.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Yes you can buy a through upgrade.

Does that only apply if you book in advance though?

You can only book subject to seats being available, but the Train Manager at Carlisle would have no idea of the loadings on the connecting service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that only apply if you book in advance though?

No.

You can only book subject to seats being available, but the Train Manager at Carlisle would have no idea of the loadings on the connecting service.

It's somewhat at your own risk, just like buying any other walk up ticket no seat is guaranteed (though it would entitle you to stand in the SP coaches or their vestibules if you wanted).

This has been the practice with Weekend First (which it's basically a form of) since basically forever.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

It's somewhat at your own risk, just like buying any other walk up ticket no seat is guaranteed (though it would entitle you to stand in the SP coaches or their vestibules if you wanted).

But in the case of Standard Premium you are guaranteed a seat. In fact Avanti go further and guarantee you a table.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But in the case of Standard Premium you are guaranteed a seat. In fact Avanti go further and guarantee you a table.

You are not contractually guaranteed a seat in any class of travel on Avanti West Coast unless you reserve one, or you're sitting in one when you buy the upgrade and it's not reserved to someone else and displayed as such. You de-facto are if you choose to only buy the upgrade for the train you're on, but because of how it's zoned that would be a rather expensive approach.

It's a walk-up fare and other than not having to be purchased before boarding it behaves entirely like one. Basically it's Weekend First all week.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

You are not contractually guaranteed a seat in any class of travel on Avanti West Coast unless you reserve one, or you're sitting in one when you buy the upgrade and it's not reserved to someone else and displayed as such.

In which case, I can’t see how you can be guaranteed a table, and maybe Avanti need to be taken to task for claiming so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which case, I can’t see how you can be guaranteed a table, and maybe Avanti need to be taken to task for claiming so.

I would suggest that you should consider the effects of making such a representation before doing so. If you don't wish to buy a through upgrade for a journey with changes due to the risk of there not being a seat (or a Voyager showing up vice Pendolino) then don't, but you'll be paying considerably more by splitting it because of how it's zoned. Don't make us all pay more by making them withdraw that possibility, which is the only possible outcome of such a challenge. In my case I'd just wait for a later train if a Voyager showed up/seat wasn't available and so would still get the value.

It works exactly the same as Weekend First always did right back to BR days pretty much to the letter (including the dedicated coach(es) which BR had). It's not broke. Don't try and fix it.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

It works exactly the same as Weekend First always did right back to BR days pretty much to the letter (including the dedicated coach(es) which BR had). It's not broke. Don't try and fix it.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this then.
I can’t find any evidence that you can book a journey that involves a change of train so I rather think it will be down to the TM on the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t find any evidence that you can book a journey that involves a change of train so I rather think it will be down to the TM on the day.

I've done it multiple times. You show your ticket and say "Standard Premium to X please", and they issue it. Not one TM has ever argued. I think I might have had "you know that's only valid on Avanti trains?" once.

You don't "book" the upgrade, you buy it from the guard. If you book in advance you buy a dedicated Advance fare which also does allow for connections but is priced differently. If you click the upgrade link on the website that's what it excesses you to, it doesn't do the flat rate upgrades there.

Nowhere does it say you can't either. Have you ever travelled Standard Premium and requested such a thing? I think it's clear you have not.

Guaranteed table just means all SP seats have a table, which they do.

As I said, please don't rock the boat on this, the only possible outcome of that is removal of this option. There is no possible positive outcome of doing so.

 

[Birmingham]

or a Voyager showing up vice Pendolino

Anyone ever tried siting in First Class in the event they've already held a Standard Premium upgrade and a Voyager's turned up?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone ever tried siting in First Class in the event they've already held a Standard Premium upgrade and a Voyager's turned up?

As a Standard Premium ticket is marked Standard class, that would get you hit with a very expensive excess or even a new ticket (or if you're really unlucky, a whacking out of court settlement on top). I've never quite understood why on double Voyagers they don't have the second First Class compartment as SP (as often both aren't staffed) but they don't so we are where we are.

 

[Jimini]

Not sure if it’s a quirk of the Avanti app / website whereby it wrongly thinks certain trains are going to be Voyagers rather than a Pendo, but we’ve noticed this past week that when trying to book for the next few commutes that Standard Premium has been removed from the 0740 and 0745 departures to Euston from Coventry, which are always (historically) Pendos. When my better half travelled in last week she did notice that the SP antimacassars had been taken off in coach H and it was completely void of passengers. Normally it’s 3/4 full as a minimum.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Not sure if it’s a quirk of the Avanti app / website whereby it wrongly thinks certain trains are going to be Voyagers rather than a Pendo, but we’ve noticed this past week that when trying to book for the next few commutes that Standard Premium has been removed from the 0740 and 0745 departures to Euston from Coventry, which are always (historically) Pendos. When my better half travelled in last week she did notice that the SP antimacassars had been taken off in coach H and it was completely void of passengers. Normally it’s 3/4 full as a minimum.

One thing I have noticed is that on certain services, Standard Premium does not exist on them due to them effectively being at peak times.

These are

Southbound -
04:28 Glasgow Central - Euston
06:31 Manchester - Euston
06:55 Manchester - Euston
07:15 Manchester - Euston
06:43 Liverpool - Euston
06:45 Wolverhampton (07:17 Birmingham) - Euston
07:21 Birmingham NS - Euston

Northbound -
16:30 Euston - Glasgow
17:30 Euston - Glasgow
18:53 Euston - Manchester

On all these services, Coach H is also marked as First Class, presumably to appease the business market in the mornings. But do Avanti really think they are going to be able to fill three coaches worth of First Class?

Looking for tomorrow morning, the majority of these services seem to be quite light loaded in First.

What is a bit inconsistent is some Southbound peak time services convey no Standard Premium, but there’s nothing going north (Birmingham or Liverpool).

It’s worth noting that this doesn’t apply on Fridays.

If the service doesn’t show with SP in the mornings, it’s likely one of the services mentioned above (with the 07:40 from Coventry being the 06:45 from Wolverhampton and the 07:45 being the 07:21 from New Street)

The source was doing dummy bookings via the Avanti app.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not about whether they will fill them, it is about maximum yield. You make more by charging one person £500 than three people £150 each.

SP is also not available on Voyager operated services, which includes a few Birminghams.

 

[Jimini]

One thing I have noticed is that on certain services, Standard Premium does not exist on them due to them effectively being at peak times.

These are

Southbound -
04:28 Glasgow Central - Euston
06:31 Manchester - Euston
06:55 Manchester - Euston
07:15 Manchester - Euston
06:43 Liverpool - Euston
06:45 Wolverhampton (07:17 Birmingham) - Euston
07:21 Birmingham NS - Euston

Northbound -
16:30 Euston - Glasgow
17:30 Euston - Glasgow
18:53 Euston - Manchester

On all these services, Coach H is also marked as First Class, presumably to appease the business market in the mornings. But do Avanti really think they are going to be able to fill three coaches worth of First Class?

Looking for tomorrow morning, the majority of these services seem to be quite light loaded in First.

What is a bit inconsistent is some Southbound peak time services convey no Standard Premium, but there’s nothing going north (Birmingham or Liverpool).

It’s worth noting that this doesn’t apply on Fridays.

If the service doesn’t show with SP in the mornings, it’s likely one of the services mentioned above (with the 07:40 from Coventry being the 06:45 from Wolverhampton and the 07:45 being the 07:21 from New Street)

The source was doing dummy bookings via the Avanti app.

Interesting -- thanks! Makes the lack of SP on the 0740 and 0745 clearer. Just struck me as a bit odd as we've both traveled SP on these services before, so wasn't sure if it's a recent change they've made or not.

It's not about whether they will fill them, it is about maximum yield. You make more by charging one person £500 than three people £150 each.

SP is also not available on Voyager operated services, which includes a few Birminghams.

Coach H was empty last week when I posted that (apart from the customer host) -- when it's SP it's very well patronised.

 

[Haywain]

Coach H was empty last week when I posted that (apart from the customer host) -- when it's SP it's very well patronised.

And some of those people patronising SP might be people who will stump up for full first class if SP is not available. The economics are not necessarily as clear cut as you think.

 

[Jimini]

And some of those people patronising SP might be people who will stump up for full first class if SP is not available. The economics are not necessarily as clear cut as you think.

Potentially on some routes, but as I said coach H was empty, and the first class ones maybe a quarter full at best. I’d be tempted on a longer journey, but not the 55 min hop from Coventry, or even the 1h20 trip from Brum.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I wonder if some of these services fill up a bit more in FC midweek, because of the combination of WFH and Office-working. I'm not entirely sure what days are more popular for commuting to the office now, but I don't think Monday would be one of them?

 

[Birmingham]

I wonder if some of these services fill up a bit more in FC midweek, because of the combination of WFH and Office-working. I'm not entirely sure what days are more popular for commuting to the office now, but I don't think Monday would be one of them?

Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. There’s an acronym for that!

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not about whether they will fill them, it is about maximum yield. You make more by charging one person £500 than three people £150 each.

SP is also not available on Voyager operated services, which includes a few Birminghams.

Avanti are really bad at yield management though - SP hasn't been full anywhere I've used it, and neither has First barring one or two morning trains.