Questions about off-peak ticket validity

[NigelH]

Off-peak tickets typically have a restriction such as "not valid to depart before 09:30" and/or "not valid to arrive into London before 10:00". This raises two questions in my mind:

1. In order to catch a train departing just after 09:30, you would have to go through the barriers several minutes earlier. How early will the tickets work the barriers?
2. If trains are running late, it may be that (for example) a train timetabled to depart at 09:20 doesn't actually depart until 09:35. Could I use an off-peak ticket on that train? (In other words, if the validity code refers to a time rather than a specific train service, does it mean the actual or timetabled time?)

I presume that when using contactless payment, it is the time you operate the barrier that determines peak/off-peak, as opposed to the time of the train.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There's no generic answer for any of these and depends on TOC, location, technology etc. Station staff would let you through the barriers though if necessary.

The ticket restriction wording can differ - if it's just valid after 09:30 for example, it would be fine on a late running train. If it starts mentioning "timed/scheduled to depart at/before/after" etc - then no.

 

[Haywain]

1. In order to catch a train departing just after 09:30, you would have to go through the barriers several minutes earlier. How early will the tickets work the barriers?

That can vary quite a lot. The gates will usually be set to allow tickets through after the last train for which they are not valid, but the limitations of the gate software mean that there frequently have to be compromises around the accuracy of this.

 

[jfollows]

In London there is a "grace period" for contactless & Oyster cards (https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-1798-1718):

1) Touching in after the start of the AM peak

Peak starts at 06.35.

2) Touching in before the end of the AM peak

Off-peak starts at 09.27.

3) Touching in after the start of the PM peak

Peak starts at 16.05.

4) Touching in before the end of the PM peak

Off-peak starts at 18.57.

 

[Haywain]

I presume that when using contactless payment, it is the time you operate the barrier that determines peak/off-peak, as opposed to the time of the train.

That's correct, in most cases. However, GTR's KeyGo will charge according to the ticket it calculates you would have needed to travel at the time of your touch in.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t think ticket barriers can normally have more than one Peak/Offpeak setting? So at a time that might be valid on an off peak day ticket, under the “arrive London after 10“ rule, can the barriers still detect a “not before 0930” rule on a period return ticket?

 

[Haywain]

I don’t think ticket barriers can normally have more than one Peak/Offpeak setting?

For paper tickets it is possible for different destination groups but it is still limited. For contactless I think it's very black and white other than for KeyGo.

 

[redreni]

In London there is a "grace period" for contactless & Oyster cards (https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-1798-1718):

Ah, that's useful to know. There's a 9.29 from my local zone 6 station. Useful to know I can catch it and pay the off-peak fare.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Ah, that's useful to know. There's a 9.29 from my local zone 6 station. Useful to know I can catch it and pay the off-peak fare.

It's a unintended benefit of Oyster Pay as you Go / Contactless that the tap in time affects pricing - whereas if you attempted to use an Off Peak Day Travelcard on the 9.29am service (assuming within the zones) you'd be travelling without a valid ticket, even if the gates let you through, although you'd have to be unlucky to be caught!

If any of this moves to the back office properly, you'd potentially be able to calculate from the tap in and tap out time what train was actually caught (even using PAYG) and charge the peak fare for the 09:29, eliminating the loophole.

 

[NigelH]

That can vary quite a lot. The gates will usually be set to allow tickets through after the last train for which they are not valid, but the limitations of the gate software mean that there frequently have to be compromises around the accuracy of this.

That could be tricky at Reading (which is the station I plan to depart from) - the last departure before 09:30 is an Elizabeth Line service at 09:28 from the furthest platform from the barriers, while the first after 09:30 (albeit ruled out by the arrival time limit) is at 09:32; the first valid one is 09:35.

There's no generic answer for any of these and depends on TOC, location, technology etc. Station staff would let you through the barriers though if necessary.

The ticket restriction wording can differ - if it's just valid after 09:30 for example, it would be fine on a late running train. If it starts mentioning "timed/scheduled to depart at/before/after" etc - then no.

Thanks - the actual wording (for restriction code FP) is

Not valid to depart until 09:30 from: ... Reading...
Not valid to arrive at the following stations before the times shown below:

• 09:57 at London Paddington
• ...

so I should be OK.

 

[MrJeeves]

However, GTR's KeyGo will charge according to the ticket it calculates you would have needed to travel at the time of your touch in.

It actually tries to work out which GTR service you travelled on based on your tap in and out times, and chooses the right ticket based on the train's departure/arrival times.

 

[penalty fares]

Be careful as the train may be delayed and make up time on the way, this train your travelling on must be for its booked arrival time not just as it was delayed.
London metro trains are normally ok but coastal trains can make up the time and arrive on time in some cases. Meaning your ticket would not be valid for your arrival time.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, so restriction code FP is based on actual departure/arrival times, as it doesn't mention "scheduled to depart" or similar. That does mean you're in slightly risky territory if you take a train that makes up time en-route, meaning it arrives earlier than the restricted arrival time!

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes, so restriction code FP is based on actual departure/arrival times, as it doesn't mention "scheduled to depart" or similar. That does mean you're in slightly risky territory if you take a train that makes up time en-route, meaning it arrives earlier than the restricted arrival time!

I would assume no RPI or staff member in their right mind would take issue with a passenger being on a train that arrives ahead of time. It would be, of course, no fault of their own.

 

[fandroid]

With contactless for, say a journey from East London in the afternoon to Reading, you can tap in just before the evening peak period starts, travel to Reading on a fast train from Paddington within the apparent peak period and still be charged an off peak fare (I think!)

That could be tricky at Reading (which is the station I plan to depart from) - the last departure before 09:30 is an Elizabeth Line service at 09:28 from the furthest platform from the barriers, while the first after 09:30 (albeit ruled out by the arrival time limit) is at 09:32; the first valid one is 09:35.

What you need to do at Reading to catch that Elizabeth Line train is to nip through the public tunnel under the station and go through the barriers on the other side. But you'd have to be very fast up and down the escalators, as those on the far side are enormously long!

On the other hand, going contactless means you can catch the 09.32 and still pay an offpeak fare in spite of its apparently too early arrival into Paddington.

 

[Haywain]

It actually tries to work out which GTR service you travelled on based on your tap in and out times, and chooses the right ticket based on the train's departure/arrival times.

Isn't that the same as what I said?

 

[MrJeeves]

Isn't that the same as what I said?

To me, it sounded as if you were saying it was purely based on the time you touched in rather than what services it matches up with.

I've touched in at 09:15 when the off-peak restriction for the ticket was 09:30 or later, then travelled on an 09:3x service and been charged for the off-peak ticket.

 

[Haywain]

To me, it sounded as if you were saying it was purely based on the time you touched in rather than what services it matches up with.

Fair enough, that wasn't what I was trying to say.

 

[MetroPleb]

It's a unintended benefit of Oyster Pay as you Go / Contactless that the tap in time affects pricing - whereas if you attempted to use an Off Peak Day Travelcard on the 9.29am service (assuming within the zones) you'd be travelling without a valid ticket ...

It can work the other way though, as I found out to my cost travelling from Windsor Central...
- The 9:25 GWR shuttle is Off-Peak, to connect at Slough after 09:30
- The outboundary paper travelcard respects the GWR restriction and allows Off-Peak travel on this
- Tapping in with contactless and getting the same GWR train to connect towards the zones caused a Peak fare to be charged - even though all TfL travel would have been after 09:30

 

[MikeWh]

If any of this moves to the back office properly, you'd potentially be able to calculate from the tap in and tap out time what train was actually caught (even using PAYG) and charge the peak fare for the 09:29, eliminating the loophole.

I sincerely doubt this will happen. To work properly it would have to match up with individual real time running information. The amount spent to work out what might have happened when the entire service has gone tits up would far outweigh the gain from charging a few extra people for a minute.

Tapping in with contactless and getting the same GWR train to connect towards the zones caused a Peak fare to be charged - even though all TfL travel would have been after 09:30

The contactless PAYG system is charging for all trains, not just TfL ones. GWR get a proportion of the fare. PAYG is not advertised as having the exact same restrictions as traditional tickets. Another benefit is that if you touch in before 06:30 you are charged off-peak fares where traditional tickets would still be anytime fares.

 

[fandroid]

It can work the other way though, as I found out to my cost travelling from Windsor Central...
- The 9:25 GWR shuttle is Off-Peak, to connect at Slough after 09:30
- The outboundary paper travelcard respects the GWR restriction and allows Off-Peak travel on this
- Tapping in with contactless and getting the same GWR train to connect towards the zones caused a Peak fare to be charged - even though all TfL travel would have been after 09:30

That contactless has wins and losses is true in many instances on the fringes of the peaks. It can be tricky if you're accustomed to taking those first and last offpeak services with "normal" tickets.