Quintinshill rail disaster (1915)

[matchmaker]

A significant number of carriages used on fast services were still gas lit in 1915. It was nothing particularly ‘unusual’ at the time.

The LMS built gas lit kitchen cars as late as 1938 - even for the Coronation Scot services.

 

[Eyersey468]

The LMS built gas lit kitchen cars as late as 1938 - even for the Coronation Scot services.

There was one of the branch lines in either Cornwall or Devon that still used gas lit coaches until closure in the 60s as the dynamos on electrically lit coaches didn't work properly due to low line speeds

 

[Gloster]

There was one of the branch lines in either Cornwall or Devon that still used gas lit coaches until closure in the 60s as the dynamos on electrically lit coaches didn't work properly due to low line speeds

I think that would be the Hemyock branch, which I think gained LNER coaches with batteries late on, although I think they needed a charger at Tivy Junction. @Taunton probably knows more.

 

[Rescars]

The LMS built gas lit kitchen cars as late as 1938 - even for the Coronation Scot services.

This maybe going too far off topic, but I wonder if this was the same type of gas (oil gas) which was used at the time of Quintinshill. Does anyone know when propane gas was first used in kitchen cars and was it ever used for lighting? IIRC Gresley buffets had propane fired hot water boilers, but had electric lighting, a combination applied to almost all BR Mark 1 catering vehicles.

 

[Snow1964]

Agreed, if those carriages were genuinely all that could be found for that train on that day why did the Caledonian let it travel at express train speeds which it wasn't suited to, that was an accident waiting to happen in itself

I was reading a book on the railways in First World War, and apparently on some days was over 100 troop trains in UK (or troop train stock working back empty).

Although there were over 100 railway companies at the time, so at first glance appears just one train each, the reality was nearer 15 bigger railway companies had bulk of troop movements.

Someone like Caledonian could easily have been moving troops from Scotland to South Coast, and with slower wartime trains, and refreshment stops might have been waiting 48+ hours for a troop train to get back to carry next batch. So not surprising having to find old stock. Just imagine what would happen if many operators today were simultaneously asked to find 10 spare trains of stock.

 

[Taunton]

This maybe going too far off topic,

Not too far off, given the nature of the fire. Gas for carriage lighting in those times was coal gas, the same as in domestic supplies of the era, which was distributed from railway gasworks in specific wagons - the GWR version had what looked like about 10 large barrels, mounted sideways in a strong open frame. Propane (modern Calor Gas etc) came later.

And the last BR gas-lit vehicles i believe were the Glyncorrwg miners train in South Wales, which combined all of last on BR of passenger wooden seats, 4-wheels and gas-lit. It was retained until the early 1960s, hauled by a 57xx tank loco, because the very inaccessible colliery had no pithead baths until then, so miners returned "dirty" at the end of shift. The Hemyock coach, onetime Barry railway, described above, was condemned in the mid-1950s, not because of its gas lighting but due to structural deterioration of the wooden body.

 

[Rescars]

Not too far off, given the nature of the fire. Gas for carriage lighting in those times was coal gas, the same as in domestic supplies of the era, which was distributed from railway gasworks in specific wagons - the GWR version had what looked like about 10 large barrels, mounted sideways in a strong open frame. Propane (modern Calor Gas etc) came later.

And the last BR gas-lit vehicles i believe were the Glyncorrwg miners train in South Wales, which combined all of last on BR of passenger wooden seats, 4-wheels and gas-lit. It was retained until the early 1960s, hauled by a 57xx tank loco, because the very inaccessible colliery had no pithead baths until then, so miners returned "dirty" at the end of shift. The Hemyock coach, onetime Barry railway, described above, was condemned in the mid-1950s, not because of its gas lighting but due to structural deterioration of the wooden body.

I am no expert on gas chemistry, but Thomas comments on the troop train carriage gas reservoirs being repressurised at Larbert with Pinsch oil gas. IIRC, this was the normal fuel for carriage gas systems at the time. If the BR era gas lighting was provided by coal gas, then some sort of system conversion would presumably have been necessary at some point, or is a carriage gas lighting set-up essentially dual fuel and equally happy with either type of gas?

 

[Calthrop]

I was reading a book on the railways in First World War, and apparently on some days was over 100 troop trains in UK (or troop train stock working back empty).

Although there were over 100 railway companies at the time, so at first glance appears just one train each, the reality was nearer 15 bigger railway companies had bulk of troop movements.

Someone like Caledonian could easily have been moving troops from Scotland to South Coast, and with slower wartime trains, and refreshment stops might have been waiting 48+ hours for a troop train to get back to carry next batch. So not surprising having to find old stock. Just imagine what would happen if many operators today were simultaneously asked to find 10 spare trains of stock.

One gathers that when over in France, the troops were often required to make do with rougher-still rail accommodation: such as the semi-legendary livestock wagons with ventilation gaps / slats in their sides (no windows as such), officially marked Hommes 40, Chevaux 8 : "Forty men or eight horses" -- quotas frequently exceeded, when dire necessity applied.

 

[matchmaker]

This maybe going too far off topic, but I wonder if this was the same type of gas (oil gas) which was used at the time of Quintinshill. Does anyone know when propane gas was first used in kitchen cars and was it ever used for lighting? IIRC Gresley buffets had propane fired hot water boilers, but had electric lighting, a combination applied to almost all BR Mark 1 catering vehicles.

I think it would be oil gas. Propane came along a lot later - I think the Gresley buffets were converted to propane in BR days. They were originally IIRC coke or electric. The LMS built two diesel-electric kitchen cars in the early 1930s, but didn't proceed with this option.

 

[Rescars]

I think it would be oil gas. Propane came along a lot later - I think the Gresley buffets were converted to propane in BR days. They were originally IIRC coke or electric. The LMS built two diesel-electric kitchen cars in the early 1930s, but didn't proceed with this option.

Good point Gresley certainly tried electric ovens and coke/anthracite was another option for kitchen stoves. Hot water boilers / coffee sets may have called for a different approach, especially in the context of the needs of a buffet service. I wonder how these were fueled before the advent of propane.

 

[Pigeon]

I am no expert on gas chemistry, but Thomas comments on the troop train carriage gas reservoirs being repressurised at Larbert with Pinsch oil gas. IIRC, this was the normal fuel for carriage gas systems at the time. If the BR era gas lighting was provided by coal gas, then some sort of system conversion would presumably have been necessary at some point, or is a carriage gas lighting set-up essentially dual fuel and equally happy with either type of gas?

The brightness might not have been quite the same, but it would still work OK.

Where you'd need conversion would be changing to propane or butane, which would need the pressure regulator and probably also the reservoir modified, and which have much lower illumination values than distillate-type gas.

 

[matchmaker]

Good point Gresley certainly tried electric ovens and coke/anthracite was another option for kitchen stoves. Hot water boilers / coffee sets may have called for a different approach, especially in the context of the needs of a buffet service. I wonder how these were fueled before the advent of propane.

I'm currently building a 4mm scale model of a 1936 LMS composite sleeping car. One of the underframe details is a gas cylinder for the stewards water boiler. I'm pretty sure it would have been for oil gas back then.

 

[Taunton]

I do seem to have mixed up coal gas and Pintsch Process oil gas further up, which others have clarified.

Which is unfortunate, for another use of such gas in the era was in lighthouses and navigation buoys, for its illumination and long-lasting capabilities. And the Trinity House organisation had their Pintsch Oil Gas plant right here on the Thames at Canary Wharf, Blackwall Wharf, visible from our house (if I'm up a ladder cleaning out the gutters), the buildings are still there. Little Miss Taunton nearly went to the school now in the buildings there, so I have actually been around inside where the stuff was made, when there was a brief mention of it.

 

[Dave W]

A cultural thing I believe. In those days it was considered that your company was for life, especially if it was a railway company of which the larger ones were economic ecosystems in themselves. In most industries back then, changing jobs was rather the exception and loyalty was valued - both ways. Shifting staff, shifting company ownerships and shifting customers, hire and fire, zero hour contracts, zero mutual loyalty, and even mutual hotility, are modern business characteristics.

I'm not arguing with the spirit of this post, which is very much also my understanding of working culture back then, but re the bold above, I was intrigued to see this in the report:

"Charles Leggat, brakesman, Larbert, states :-
I have been 12 1/2 years in the Company's service, and
have been a spare brakesman for nearly five years.
I have no regular booked hours. I left off duty at
5 p.m. on the 20th May, and resumed at 2 a.m. on
the 22nd"

An early precursor to the zero hour contract, perhaps!?

 

[Rescars]

I'm currently building a 4mm scale model of a 1936 LMS composite sleeping car. One of the underframe details is a gas cylinder for the stewards water boiler. I'm pretty sure it would have been for oil gas back then.

That's an interesting angle. A gas tank built into the underframe is quite a different proposition from exchangeable LPG cylinders carried in a box suspended between the bogies, as was the arrangement on Mark 1 stock. Oil gas seems likely.

I do seem to have mixed up coal gas and Pintsch Process oil gas further up, which others have clarified.

Which is unfortunate, for another use of such gas in the era was in lighthouses and navigation buoys, for its illumination and long-lasting capabilities. And the Trinity House organisation had their Pintsch Oil Gas plant right here on the Thames at Canary Wharf, Blackwall Wharf, visible from our house (if I'm up a ladder cleaning out the gutters), the buildings are still there. Little Miss Taunton nearly went to the school now in the buildings there, so I have actually been around inside where the stuff was made, when there was a brief mention of it.

An almost personal connection! I wonder whether it was Trinity House or the railways which stopped using oil gas first.

IIRC gas lighting was the major cause of fatalities in the rail accident at Duguld in Canada in 1947.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think it would be oil gas. Propane came along a lot later - I think the Gresley buffets were converted to propane in BR days. They were originally IIRC coke or electric. The LMS built two diesel-electric kitchen cars in the early 1930s, but didn't proceed with this option.

The diesel-electric cars had two engine compartments above the solebar, each take 5’ 9” of length. The ‘electric’ vehicles had 60’ 1” bodies and a main kitchen 19’ 10” long. Much more expensive.

The ‘standard’ all-gas version was only 50’ 0” long for a very similar kitchen (20’ 0”) fitted out with loads of gas ovens, gas hobs and gas warming cupboards.

At the risk of stating the obvious; the difference to overall fire risk from a few gas lights instead of electric ones was minimal.

It seems that there was at least a trial of fitting electricity to the ‘gas cars’ by BR but in practice they spent a lot of time stored during and after the Second World War.

 

[Rescars]

The diesel-electric cars had two engine compartments above the solebar, each take 5’ 9” of length. The ‘electric’ vehicles had 60’ 1” bodies and a main kitchen 19’ 10” long. Much more expensive.

The ‘standard’ all-gas version was only 50’ 0” long for a very similar kitchen (20’ 0”) fitted out with loads of gas ovens, gas hobs and gas warming cupboards.

At the risk of stating the obvious; the difference to overall fire risk from a few gas lights instead of electric ones was minimal.

It seems that there was at least a trial of fitting electricity to the ‘gas cars’ by BR but in practice they spent a lot of time stored during and after the Second World War.

All rather more sophisticated than the electrically blown anthracite ranges fitted to many of the kitchen cars of that era.

 

[John Palmer]

The fireman of the stopping train was also culpable, in that he failed to implement Rule 55 correctly, which states in the event of a train being held at a signal for more than three minutes, a member of the crew should go to the box, sign the register, and see that a locking collar is placed over the appropriate lever. He signed the register and then left without seeing the collar in place.

There's often a risk in applying today's standards to yesterday's conduct, and the judgment on Fireman Hutchinson's conduct illustrates this. In 1915, Rule 55 imposed no obligation on train crew to ensure that the relevant signal lever was collared when they were detained. Assistant Superintendent Killin's evidence to the Quintinshill inquiry was that such collaring of levers had been the subject of a special circular issued in April 2012 and a special instruction in the Appendix to the WTT – but the requirement had yet to make it into the text of the Rule itself. The 1915 version of the Rule can be found in a critique of it forming the subject of T.S.Lascelles' September 1915 letter to the Editor of 'The Signal Engineer', to be found at https://www.jonroma.net/media/signaling/railway-signaling/1915/Rule 55 and the Gretna Accident.pdf. It's interesting that the 1915 version of the rule positively required the engine crewman to remain in the signal box (like a flesh and blood lever collar) until the signalman could give permission for his train to go forward. So much for the notion that train crew remaining within the box represented a prohibited distraction!

It may well be the case that the value of applying lever collars was not yet universally accepted in 1915. In 1910 their use was still being eschewed by the Midland Railway, who, in Major Pringle's report on the Hawes Jc accident, are reported as taking the view that “unless invariably used, they are not desirable adjuncts to signalling.” That report is also noteworthy for revealing that in 1910 the Midland Railway had yet to permit, let alone require, arrangements for blocking back inside home signal. By 1915 the failure to block back was treated one of the principal failings on the part of the Quintinshill signalmen; nonetheless it would appear to have been a recent innovation in signalling practice.