• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Rail beating Air for market share Edinburgh-London

Status
Not open for further replies.

haggishunter

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2016
Messages
349
Seen this on STV News - https://news.stv.tv/east-central/ra...g-between-edinburgh-and-london-for-first-time

More passengers choosing rail over air between Edinburgh and London

More than half of journeys between Edinburgh and London were by rail between April and August 2022.

More people are choosing to travel by rail between central Scotland and London for the first time – despite widespread disruption caused by a summer of strikes.

Between April and August 2022, for the first time more than half of journeys, 57%, between Edinburgh and London were by rail, compared to 35% of journeys before the Covid pandemic.

On one hand quite an impressive stat given the summer of strikes, staffing issues and disruption on the East Coast Main Line. But perhaps also a reflection on the problems at the airports, I've not been through Edinburgh airport since a couple of years before covid and from what I've heard in recent times won't be in a rush to return.

This is progress that really needs to be cemented, but the railway needs to not unravel further as aviation gets its act together.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,440
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
You also need to convert one time custom into repeat business. A regular easy Jetta who gives lumo ago because Steve the office said it was great when he did it at 6:20 on Sunday night when the train was half empty is going to be far from amused when he's is squashed in on an overcrowded service with no room for his luggage and and no catering because the trolley can't get bye and you can't get down the aisle to reach the trolley

Also for a while there were some quite good fares on LNER but as a frequent flyer between Scotland and London there are quite a few people who I recognise who have tried the train once or twice and have been put off by delays or or crap service or awful seats or a combination of all the above and simply return to the aircraft. Rail has a very long way to go until it can continue you to hold on to that market share for a long sustained period of time
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
2,042
From the times a few days ago...


A cut-price rail service between London and Edinburgh, dubbed the Ryanair of rail, is on track to turn a profit after a year in service and has helped to reverse the airlines’ previous dominance of the travel market between the capitals.

Lumo, celebrating its first birthday this week, will announce that it is soon to carry its one millionth passenger during a year in which its average one-way fare has been less than £40, as much as half or two thirds the price charged by LNER, the incumbent train operator on the east coast main line, or the airlines flying the route.

It was set up last year as a so-called open-access operator, a niche train company operating outside the direction of the Department for Transport. It is owned by First Group, Britain’s largest train company, which also runs Avanti West Coast, Great Western and Trans-Pennine, and would have competed with Virgin East Coast before the latter was wound up and replaced by the state-owned LNER.

Lumo’s proposition is one-way prices from about £25 but capped, even at the times of highest demand, at £72. It operates five return services a day with stops at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth. Lumo’s revenues in its first year have hit £35 million and Martin Gilbert, its new chief executive, confirmed that the operation’s breakeven target for its five-car, 400-seater trains to be profitable, running at an average of 60 per cent full, was “on track”.

Of Lumo’s success thus far, he said: “We have a value offer for the price sensitive and are attractive to students and older passengers but we are attracting business passengers too. We have opened up the route for people for the first time just by being cheaper than the alternatives previously available.”

Lumo has tried to woo the environmentally aware, claiming to offer low-emission travel on new, British-built electric trains, and with a marketing line of “Cure your flight shame”. “An ethical choice that appeals to a certain audience,” Gilbert said.

Lumo has limited rights of access to the rail network, which means that it is one twentieth the size of LNER. That could change should it moves to running longer trains to satisfy demand.

It claims that it has helped to bring about a dramatic turnaround in the air/rail share of the London-Edinburgh market. Analysis of Office of Rail and Road and Civil Aviation Authority data shows that before the pandemic, up against high-frequency air services by multiple carriers from multiple London airports, rail handled only 33 per cent of the passengers between the capitals.

With airlines and airports in operational disarray coming out of the pandemic and consumers ever more price conscious, latest quarterly data shows that rail has turned the tables to now claim 63 per cent of the market despite an average journey on the train of about four and a half hours, compared with an hour and 20 minutes by air.

Gilbert said that Lumo’s success was a victory for the open-access model and that niche private-sector competition should be encouraged. “It can provide customers with lower fares and more choice,” he said.

Many in the rail industry have called for more open-access operators across the network but only two companies have been able to establish themselves during the years of privatisation, both on the east coast main line: Hull Trains, also operated by First Group, and the Arriva-owned Grand Central, with services to and from Yorkshire and the northeast.
 
Joined
24 Sep 2017
Messages
298
Could it also be that people are put off by the disruption and not being able to book tickets on the west coast, therefore using the east coast instead, and inflating the numbers. I’m not sure how much this would account for in the grand scheme of things, but probably more than negligible.
 

Mainliner

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2010
Messages
315
Location
Northumberland
But perhaps also a reflection on the problems at the airports, I've not been through Edinburgh airport since a couple of years before covid and from what I've heard in recent times won't be in as aviation gets its act together.
.
Indeed - having recently flown from Edinburgh for the first time in years, with long waits both outward and inward (the latter in what was no more than a large old grey shed), I wouldn’t dream of using it for domestic flights instead of the train, where you don’t need to queue for ages to get on and off platforms and trains, or arrive hours before departure.

Incidentally, the recent 20.27 Lumo departures from KGX that I’ve been on were impressively well loaded, and the impression I have is that, off-peak, Lumo is also successfully competing with coach operators on cost. My recent 20.27 KGX-Morpeth trips each cost less than £15 with a railcard.

All in all, I think Lumo found and filled a gap in the market, and I’m not surprised it’s successful.

I agree with the criticism about the slow Lumo onboard catering - after recently boarding at Morpeth, the trolley didn’t arrive until almost at Peterborough, and few people in my carriage bought anything. Given that the catering supply and trolley arrangements are already in place, it seems a false economy not to have a separate trolley person and sell a lot more - I simply bring on what I need.
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,556
Location
Yorks
You also need to convert one time custom into repeat business. A regular easy Jetta who gives lumo ago because Steve the office said it was great when he did it at 6:20 on Sunday night when the train was half empty is going to be far from amused when he's is squashed in on an overcrowded service with no room for his luggage and and no catering because the trolley can't get bye and you can't get down the aisle to reach the trolley

Also for a while there were some quite good fares on LNER but as a frequent flyer between Scotland and London there are quite a few people who I recognise who have tried the train once or twice and have been put off by delays or or crap service or awful seats or a combination of all the above and simply return to the aircraft. Rail has a very long way to go until it can continue you to hold on to that market share for a long sustained period of time

I can see that Avanti would put people off (aside from the reliability problems, it's often been standing room only when I've used it around Penrith).

One benefit of trains is that you're only likely to be sat next to one person, whereas on a plane you could be sandwiched between two.

I notice that the Lumo sets are quite short, so there's lots of room to expand without needing more paths.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
2,823
Have the fares on LNER reduced since the arrival of LUMO?

Just proves that if you reduce the fares that you get more passengers - providing of course that you have the capacity to shift them.

I have just gone on the National Rail website and put in for a fare from Edinburgh to Cardiff on Wednesday 9 November. Every option comes up as £205.10 one way - set by some brainbox at Cross Country Trains. (It can be reduced by using multiple splits going via Avanti or Trans Pennine Express along with Transport for Wales and these offer the shortest and quickest route). This is a similar distance as Edinburgh to London which LUMO offer for the same date at £47.90. The odd thing is that the National Rail website only shows the LUMO prices and the LNER schedules come up with no price.
 
Last edited:

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,130
I have just gone on the National Rail website and put in for a fare from Edinburgh to Cardiff on Wednesday 9 November. Every option comes up as £205.10 one way - set by some brainbox at Cross Country Trains. This is a similar distance as Edinburgh to London.

Well you’d be going via London, as that’s a strike day.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
17,871
Location
East Anglia
Travelling on the ECML last week it was very noticeable how heavy the loadings where on almost all Anglo-Scottish services I witnessed. Others where shown as full & standing & that's with the all day almost half hourly frequency which would've been unimaginable years ago. Very good to see.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,694
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Could it also be that people are put off by the disruption and not being able to book tickets on the west coast, therefore using the east coast instead, and inflating the numbers. I’m not sure how much this would account for in the grand scheme of things, but probably more than negligible.

In my experience this has to be one of the reasons and I'm surprised it's not been mentioned. From what I've seen many passengers seem willing to experience the small inconvenience of doing that final leg to Glasgow via Scotrail in order to avoid flying and the unpredictability or outright nixing of many Avanti services.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
5,034
Location
County Durham
I'd be amazed if it lasts long with Avanti the way they are, LNER now suffering staff shortages too, and the airlines starting to up their game and lower their fares.

Have the fares on LNER reduced since the arrival of LUMO?

Just proves that if you reduce the fares that you get more passengers - providing of course that you have the capacity to shift them.
They haven't lowered their fares. The fact LNER are still managing to fill their trains at their old expensive prices with Lumo also full shows that Lumo have done as they claimed in their access application - bring new custom to the rail network.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,440
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
It would be interesting to find out just how many regulars they are using lumo. My last couple of trips in particular showed that it seems particularly popular with American tourists with suitcases the size of a Premier Inn bathroom being booked on in numbers by travel agents and if this continues then n1 has to wonder if if regular business or leisure travellers who who would be making the journey anyway by one means or another would switch to lumo on a regular basis. LNER did lower their fares for a bit in the early part of the year ear but they do seem to have shot up again and and I do wonder how many of the people loading their services are those pinched from the airlines and how many are just enjoying travelling again now that things definitely look as if they're going to stay something like normal with no more crippling restrictions due to coronavirus
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
32,913
From the times a few days ago...

Er, that’s from the archives and about the startup of the service, it’s dated from this time last year?
 
Last edited:

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,198
Location
Bristol
It would be interesting to find out just how many regulars they are using lumo. My last couple of trips in particular showed that it seems particularly popular with American tourists with suitcases the size of a Premier Inn bathroom being booked on in numbers by travel agents and if this continues then n1 has to wonder if if regular business or leisure travellers who who would be making the journey anyway by one means or another would switch to lumo on a regular basis. LNER did lower their fares for a bit in the early part of the year ear but they do seem to have shot up again and and I do wonder how many of the people loading their services are those pinched from the airlines and how many are just enjoying travelling again now that things definitely look as if they're going to stay something like normal with no more crippling restrictions due to coronavirus
This is interesting though - presumably US tourists would previously have used a connecting flight from Heathrow to Edinburgh, so if travel agents are now shifting them to Lumo this is quite a big win for the railway, and the environment.
 

Sm5

Member
Joined
21 Oct 2016
Messages
1,013
This is interesting though - presumably US tourists would previously have used a connecting flight from Heathrow to Edinburgh, so if travel agents are now shifting them to Lumo this is quite a big win for the railway, and the environment.
intl American travellers arent known for their lowest budget activities, especially when the £ is at its weakest….
is this demand due to vastly increased American tourism taking advantage, or Travel agents failing to maximise revenue ?
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,198
Location
Bristol
intl American travellers arent known for their lowest budget activities, especially when the £ is at its weakest….
This is why it's interesting. Mind you, LNER was never short on bulky suitcases when I used them (albeit quite a long time ago now)
 

miklcct

On Moderation
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
4,959
Location
Cricklewood
I have a serious question to ask here.

The introduction of competition on the ECML route has increased the modal share of railways, abstracting revenue from air travel instead of abstracting revenue from other operators.

Why did bus deregulation fail in this aspect, that when bus companies were allowed free competition, the whole network deteriorated with many places left without a usable bus service?
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,440
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I suspect a lot of it could well be to do with the Heathrow passenger cap. Whilst they have not restricted in any degree of severity the numbers arriving and departing from international destinations, UK domestic has been vandalised to the point of unused ability at times although certainly picked up a good bit again from the end of August I'm glad to say as an ex rail passenger who's quite frankly lost the will to live with long-distance Rail travel in this country. Just as easy as I suspect to to organise and itinerary that lands you in Heathrow, sticks you on the express to Paddington, the tube to the cross and the lumo to Scotland than it is to transfer you to another airport for a UK domestic connection or have you hanging around at Heathrow for a potentially extended length of time before there is a Glasgow or Edinburgh plane. Suspect there is less of this for the North of Scotland services which haven't been nearly so badly hit


If this winter and next year's holiday season is, no, or as normal as can be now a days then it remains to see if this phenomenon continues
 

Kingston Dan

Member
Joined
19 Apr 2020
Messages
293
Location
N Yorks
I suspect a lot of it could well be to do with the Heathrow passenger cap. Whilst they have not restricted in any degree of severity the numbers arriving and departing from international destinations, UK domestic has been vandalised to the point of unused ability at times although certainly picked up a good bit again from the end of August I'm glad to say as an ex rail passenger who's quite frankly lost the will to live with long-distance Rail travel in this country. Just as easy as I suspect to to organise and itinerary that lands you in Heathrow, sticks you on the express to Paddington, the tube to the cross and the lumo to Scotland than it is to transfer you to another airport for a UK domestic connection or have you hanging around at Heathrow for a potentially extended length of time before there is a Glasgow or Edinburgh plane. Suspect there is less of this for the North of Scotland services which haven't been nearly so badly hit


If this winter and next year's holiday season is, no, or as normal as can be now a days then it remains to see if this phenomenon continues
Also there are a number of direct flights from the USA and Canada to Edinburgh - so many tourists will be avoiding Heathrow altogether.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,130
I have a serious question to ask here.

The introduction of competition on the ECML route has increased the modal share of railways, abstracting revenue from air travel instead of abstracting revenue from other operators.

Why did bus deregulation fail in this aspect, that when bus companies were allowed free competition, the whole network deteriorated with many places left without a usable bus service?

In principle, because the bus network was entirely deregulated (with a few exceptions, notably London), and thus the operators cherry picked the profitable routes and abandoned those that weren’t. This was quite lucrative for the routes that did operate, hence why Messrs Souter, Lockhead et al are sitting on piles of cash.

The rail industry is tightly regulated, and open access is only viable in a very few circumstances. If the industry was entirely deregulated it would go the same way as buses, and we would very quickly be left with a network that looks similar to that operated on strike days, with higher fares for the most popular times.
 

route101

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
11,318
Rail is usually my default from Scotland to London. Cheaper fares are not as easy to obtain. Find it a hassle getting to airport and the flight prices can be high, much harder to bag a cheap a flight at shorter notice now.
 

andythebrave

Member
Joined
8 Oct 2009
Messages
550
Location
In the Marston Vale
Could it also be that people are put off by the disruption and not being able to book tickets on the west coast, therefore using the east coast instead, and inflating the numbers. I’m not sure how much this would account for in the grand scheme of things, but probably more than negligible.
Well, yes.
My regular trips to Glasgow have moved entirely to LNER & connections and I've not been anywhere near Morecambe Bay in the past year.
I like the idea of there being a high likelihood that my train will turn up and that I can, effectively, book it when I want to.
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
3,097
Location
Dumfries
There’s definitely a very notable increase in loadings on both ECML and WCML services.

I caught a London - Glasgow Avanti earlier this week (boarding at Carlisle) and I’ve never seen a 390 so full, indeed even standard premium was standing room only!

I’ve booked an LNER Edinburgh - London (first class) fare for a few weeks time. I shopped around to see which trains were quieter, but they all seem near enough fully reserved (and this is in first!) - I used to be able to nab a table of 2 to myself on LNER, now I’m struggling to reserve a decent solo seat a few weeks before.

It’s very promising to see, but it does mean that passenger comfort inevitably decreases until the current dispute is resolved and services return to a better frequency.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,556
Location
Yorks
If you want to properly encourage modal shift on London - Scotland, massively increase the length of the Lumo's and go for the "pile em high, sell em cheap" approach to fares.

Open access seems to be exempt from the DfT's failure to move on from revenue only being what it was ten years ago rather than two and consequent inability to manage the franchised railway.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,440
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
And don't completely Ryanairise it either, maybe see if they can get 1/6 lumo path a day in both directions and and do a 50/50 split between the the lumo offering now and a new lumo premium with 2 + 1 seating, better catering including chef prepared meals and and more of an emphasis on comfort. The Ryanair of Rail model works fine if it's not completely stuffed to the rafters but rather falls down when it is
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
15,198
Location
Bristol
If you want to properly encourage modal shift on London - Scotland, massively increase the length of the Lumo's and go for the "pile em high, sell em cheap" approach to fares.
Agreed.
Open access seems to be exempt from the DfT's failure to move on from revenue only being what it was ten years ago rather than two and consequent inability to manage the franchised railway.
Because it's the privatised railway doing exactly what it was intended to do: Find profitable routes and maximise them. Business will always adapt faster than government. However, the cautionary tale is in how few OAO routes there are.
And don't completely Ryanairise it either, maybe see if they can get 1/6 lumo path a day in both directions and and do a 50/50 split between the the lumo offering now and a new lumo premium with 2 + 1 seating, better catering including chef prepared meals and and more of an emphasis on comfort. The Ryanair of Rail model works fine if it's not completely stuffed to the rafters but rather falls down when it is
I respectfully disagree. You either commit to the Ryanair model or you don't. If you want a more comfortable offering, go with LNER.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,556
Location
Yorks
Agreed.

Because it's the privatised railway doing exactly what it was intended to do: Find profitable routes and maximise them. Business will always adapt faster than government. However, the cautionary tale is in how few OAO routes there are.

I think it's down to policy.

Managers could increase usage and revenue, regardless of ownership, given the correct incentives/targets. Government isn't doing that at the moment.

I agree that Lumo serves a particular market though.
 

Jim the Jim

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2020
Messages
209
Location
Cambridge
I have a serious question to ask here.

The introduction of competition on the ECML route has increased the modal share of railways, abstracting revenue from air travel instead of abstracting revenue from other operators.

Why did bus deregulation fail in this aspect, that when bus companies were allowed free competition, the whole network deteriorated with many places left without a usable bus service?
Probably because the economics of long-distance intercity travel are very different to those of local travel as covered by most bus routes. To my knowledge nobody has even tried to run open-access operations on local rail routes, and for good reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top