Rail bosses spend £10,000 a week on flights – because it’s cheaper than trains

[Bald Rick]

There is definitely work that can be done because a non-stop journey from New Street to Euston takes 1 hour 13 minutes.

What work is that?

Without HS2, slow line speeds could be upgraded, signalling could be upgraded.

Could they? For what purpose and at what cost?

HS2 may eventually speed up the journey time from London to Birmingham

It will

although that won’t reduce timings to Scotland

It will

 

[BluePenguin]

What work is that?

Could they? For what purpose and at what cost?

It will

It will

I am not a railway engineer so cannot answer what technical work could be done or how much it would cost, the point is it should be done and would be beneficial. This is not a speculative thread, so let us not deliberate on the what or how. Although, if you are interested in finding out that info feel free to create a new thread. I created one myself out of interest. Anyone who knows what could be done should speak to Network Rail as this is a genuine issue.

Over several posts I have explained that services to and through Birmingham are slower compared to other towns further away, resulting in services to Scotland being slower than they should be, and there is no further detail to add. The environmental benefits may sway people from flying instead of taking the train via reduced journey times.

HS2 will not be the great solution you may think it will be. It certainly will not reach Scotland for a very very long time, if ever. Perhaps knock 30 minutes off current journey times if that. We all thought HS1 would be the best thing to happen to Kent since sliced bread and it was not - I live here. On the subject of more regional services through Birmingham, in 2040 should these remain as slow as they are today? Considerable work was done for Eurostars in Kent. Lots of extra fast lines and loops were installed which see little use today. Although, when they are used the benefit is felt.

All of which is solved by HS2. You need wholesale resignalling and likely a lot of civils work to get speeds up. None of which is going to happen with HS2 being built. Resignalling of the West Coast towards Euston is a minimum of 20 years away.

None of it will happen with HS2 being built, that we can agree on

 

[The Planner]

I am not a railway engineer so cannot answer what technical work could be done or how much it would cost, the point is it should be done and would be beneficial. This is not a speculative thread, so let us not deliberate on the what or how. Although, if you are interested in finding out that info feel free to create a new thread. I created one myself out of interest. Anyone who knows what could be done should speak to Network Rail as this is a genuine issue.

Over several posts I have explained that services to and through Birmingham are slower compared to other towns further away, resulting in services to Scotland being slower than they should be, and there is no further detail to add. The environmental benefits may sway people from flying instead of taking the train via reduced journey times.

HS2 will not be the great solution you may think it will be. It certainly will not reach Scotland for a very very long time, if ever. Perhaps knock 30 minutes off current journey times if that. We all thought HS1 would be the best thing to happen to Kent since sliced bread and it was not - I live here. On the subject of more regional services through Birmingham, in 2040 should these remain as slow as they are today? Considerable work was done for Eurostars in Kent. Lots of extra fast lines and loops were installed which see little use today. Although, when they are used the benefit is felt.


None of it will happen with HS2 being built, that we can agree on

Myself and BaldRick both work for NR. Ive explained why Birmingham is slower than getting to Stafford. HS2 trains will reach Scotland as soon as the link at Handsacre opens. As for the WCML, it will get resignalled again in the fullness of time. Even if HS2 was canned entirely, wholesale upgrades to enable significant time reductions still wouldnt happen.

 

[BluePenguin]

Myself and BaldRick both work for NR. Ive explained why Birmingham is slower than getting to Stafford. HS2 trains will reach Scotland as soon as the link at Handsacre opens. As for the WCML, it will get resignalled again in the fullness of time. Even if HS2 was canned entirely, wholesale upgrades to enable significant time reductions still wouldnt happen.

Right, well in that case it would have been more appropriate for Bald Rick in light of his job to explain himself, rather than directing these questions at me - a layman yet tenacious passenger. Obviously I don't have the necessary knowledge to know the answers. Utterly pointless asking me about the work and costs as I have no insight into knowing. He might though. It was not helpful at all. All I was doing was clarifying the situation and this did far from that. I ask that he takes this onboard and does not do this again. This is a discussion forum not a knowledge assessment test.

Back on topic, what do you mean by wholesale upgrades? Why would upgrades not be made to the WCML if HS2 was canned as they are clearly and evidently needed? Especially if we want to convert passengers from air to rail. The only excuse/reason anyone has been able to come up with so far for not doing them is that HS2 will be the solution. Thanks in an advance

 

[The Planner]

Right, well in that case it would have been more appropriate for Bald Rick in light of his job to explain himself, rather than directing these questions at me - a layman yet tenacious passenger. Obviously I don't have the necessary knowledge to know the answers. Utterly pointless asking me about the work and costs as I have no insight into knowing. He might though. It was not helpful at all. All I was doing was clarifying the situation and this did far from that. I ask that he takes this onboard and does not do this again. This is a discussion forum not a knowledge assessment test.

Back on topic, what do you mean by wholesale upgrades? Why would upgrades not be made to the WCML if HS2 was canned as they are clearly and evidently needed? Especially if we want to convert passengers from air to rail. The only excuse/reason anyone has been able to come up with so far for not doing them is that HS2 will be the solution. Thanks in an advance

HS2 effectively 6 tracks the WCML south of Crewe. To do wholesale upgrades on the existing line would be significantly disrupting the existing railway for a decade or more, reducing revenue, patronage and capacity, more than likely shifting people to air than actually reducing it. Upgrades would likely be realignment, bypasses, new tunnels, modifications of stations, OLE, signaling, structures, power supply etc etc which are all required to go faster than 125mph. If you need to do that, do it green field where it doesnt impact to the same scale, HS2.

 

[Falcon1200]

Why would upgrades not be made to the WCML if HS2 was canned as they are clearly and evidently needed?

Upgrades have already been made to the WCML; The West Coast Route Modernisation project lasted years, spent billions of pounds, and caused immense disruption; Yet at the end we still have a 125mph railway with sections of two tracks only, including one of interest to you, Rugby to Birmingham. HS2 will address that particular problem, among others, and will not therefore be canned!

 

[Bald Rick]

Right, well in that case it would have been more appropriate for Bald Rick in light of his job to explain himself, rather than directing these questions at me - a layman yet tenacious passenger. Obviously I don't have the necessary knowledge to know the answers.

Apologies, from the way you were writing it appeared (to me at least) that you had some idea of what you were proposing.

I am not a railway engineer so cannot answer what technical work could be done or how much it would cost, the point is it should be done and would be beneficial.

This is my point - you don’t know what the work would be, but you know “it should be done”. How can you know “it should be done” if you don’t know what “it” is?


I worked on the West Coast Route Modernisation (a lot of people did!) and we looked at all sorts of potential projects for improving speeds and capacity. What you see on the WCML today is the result of that work. A great deal of physical work was done, over a decade. Many more projects were studied and not taken further, 140mph running for example (benefits nowhere near sufficient to pay for the cost). The WCML is effectively now at the limit (economically if not technologically) of the speed and capacity of a conventional railway.

As an aside, one of the proposals which didn’t see the light of day is effectively now Phase 2a of HS2.

 

[eldomtom2]

The WCML is effectively now at the limit (economically if not technologically) of the speed and capacity of a conventional railway.

That assumes "economic limits" can be objectively measured.

 

[Bald Rick]

That assumes "economic limits" can be objectively measured.

Well, that’s what Business cases are designed to do.

 

[eldomtom2]

Well, that’s what Business cases are designed to do.

I would dispute that. That is not saying they are not accurate per se; but that they will bring into their assessment subjective assumptions and priorities.