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Rail Freight Flows and News UK

Gaz67

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Is it me or has there been a big downturn in freight this last year, spent a few hours at Doncaster today with only 1 movement of note through the station. Barnetby has fallen off a cliff whenever I check realtime, without aggregates and containers I would say there is very little freight on the rails . Can see this only going one way in the future, a far cry from the early days of privatisation with the promise of wagonload /enterprise services.
 
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Freightmaster

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Is it me or has there been a big downturn in freight this last year
It's just you! ;)


I keep track of freight traffic for a living and in many parts of the country,
business is booming, but as has always been the case, certain areas are
much busier than others so you need to a bit of research before deciding
where to go rather visiting places which you think ought to be busy...


, spent a few hours at Doncaster today with only 1 movement of note through the station.
Monday is by far the worst weekday day to see freight as many workings run 'Mondays excepted';
I just had a look at RTT for last Thursday and there were no less than 15 freight workings through
Doncaster between 1000 and 1900.


Barnetby has fallen off a cliff whenever I check realtime, without aggregates and containers I would say there is very little freight on the rails . Can see this only going one way in the future...
So can I - more aggregate and containers - bring it on!! :smile:




MARK
 

Sun Chariot

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Mark's steer, that "...certain areas are much busier than others" is so true. I live close to where Portsmouth Direct Line meets West Coastway Line. The only booked freight in these parts, runs weekly. But if I was a few miles west, at Eastleigh, I would be spoiled for choice almost every day
 

Gaz67

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Looks like I based my post on a bad day at Doncaster, happy to be proved wrong on this although I do pine for trains of black gold , off to Carlisle today so will get a West Coast perspective.
 

mwmbwls

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Just in case you missed my post on the Electrification Thread


A very useful presentation by Chris Pollock of Botham Network Solution with an excellent Q&A session.

In essence the message is the same as Andrew Lloyd Webber’s lyric “Freight Is Great, Freight is Great – It takes the loads from off the roads – so Freight is great” .

 

furnessvale

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Doncaster iport is to double in size with increased capacity for container storage and additional daily trains. Planning consent has been granted. Work to commence Q1 2024 completion by Q1 2025.

 

BRX

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It continues to be disappointing that cross-channel freight shows few signs of making any great progress. I think I recall reading how that Doncaster iPort was set up with customs facilities that would let it recieve freight from abroad.
 

littledude

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It continues to be disappointing that cross-channel freight shows few signs of making any great progress. I think I recall reading how that Doncaster iPort was set up with customs facilities that would let it recieve freight from abroad.
There are a number of reasons why international freight trains are difficult to make viable:

1) You need enough volume from one general area going to another general area, or operate to a location like Köln Eifeltor or Paris Valenton where traffic can then be distributed on other trwins

2) You need wagons capable of operating in mainland Europe as well as on the UK infrastructure, there aren’t many of these sat around spare.

3) The tunnel charges are astronomical, and add to this delay costs when contending with the French (and German etc) networks, it suddenly becomes much easier to just load the goods onto a HGV and take it through the tunnel
 

Oxfordblues

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It continues to be disappointing that cross-channel freight shows few signs of making any great progress. I think I recall reading how that Doncaster iPort was set up with customs facilities that would let it recieve freight from abroad.
Indeed so. I was involved in the Channel Tunnel UK infrastructure project and it was an ambitious scheme catering for up to 35 intermodal trains each way per day. There was some initial optimism, but the anticipated traffic was defeated by the illegal migrants crisis, lack of interest by SNCF, SNCB and DB but most of all by the ludicrously high and unaffordable tunnel charges. None of these impediments were foreseen when the project started.
 

BRX

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It's kind of strange that somehow the economics stack up for bottled water - but not general intermodal, which you'd think might be carrying higher value goods.
 

zwk500

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It's kind of strange that somehow the economics stack up for bottled water - but not general intermodal, which you'd think might be carrying higher value goods.
A lot of Cross-channel general intermodal is swapbodies (particularly S45 profile) which need W9+ gauge, which is not that common across the country - IIRC it doesn't fit wholly within W10 but not sure where the greater profile is. NR have proposed to upgrade at least 1 of the Kent routes for that gauge (there's plenty of press about it) and in one of their freight strategy papers also identified an opportunity to upgrade Ripple Lane to allow easier transfer of cross-channel freight between road and rail.
 

BRX

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Presumably a lot of cross channel intermodal is swap bodies partly because that market is almost entirely road dominated at present ... sort of chicken and egg. Maybe more internal European intermodal is swap body than I realise though.

I've read the stuff proposing to upgrade clearance on the Kent routes, but isn't that from quite a while ago now? Nothing ever seems to come of it.

Ripple Lane seems a bit of a cop-out because you're only getting stuff about 60 miles into the UK before reverting to road. Of course, still better than nothing.
 

zwk500

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Presumably a lot of cross channel intermodal is swap bodies partly because that market is almost entirely road dominated at present ... sort of chicken and egg. Maybe more internal European intermodal is swap body than I realise though.
But also the distance. No point double handling goods from swapbodies to deep sea containers and then back when the middle leg is only a couple of days. Especially as road swap bodies can fit within European loading gauges without too many issues (or the traffic is heavy enough to make the cost of fixing issues worth it).
I've read the stuff proposing to upgrade clearance on the Kent routes, but isn't that from quite a while ago now? Nothing ever seems to come of it.
As ever, money is the key issue. It was looked at in 2022 or so. Given the speed at which publicly funded projects move, I'd have been surprised if anything more had been said by now.
Ripple Lane seems a bit of a cop-out because you're only getting stuff about 60 miles into the UK before reverting to road. Of course, still better than nothing.
Tbf Ripple Lane is more a happy accident for Channel Tunnel freight, the yard upgrade itself is to allow existing London Gateway, Tilbury2 traffic to have more 650/775m paths for cross-London traffic.
 

Adrian Barr

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Doncaster
A couple of interesting developments:

4X51 ran last night from Hartlepool to Willesden Euro, 66509 hauling 20 FSA intermodal flats conveying concrete tunnel segments for HS2.
The factory producing them is located on the Hartlepool Docks branch (I can't remember any other traffic using this branch for many years).
https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news...-begins-at-new-strabag-facility-in-hartlepool

The wagons had the "cassettes" (which carry the segments) loaded at Southampton, departing as 4E96 to Hunslet yard on 23/11 and continuing to Hartlepool on 24th November as 4N52 from Hunslet, but last night was the first southbound loaded run (the loco arrived light from Tees Dock as 0N52).

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H04945/2023-12-11/detailed

There's a video already uploaded to YouTube of 4X51 passing through Hartlepool station:

Channel: ItzNotCarly23 | Video: 4X51 Hartlepool PD Ports - Willesden Euroterminal HS2 Freightliner Orange 66509 11th December 2023

**

Meanwhile there's a 4A02 en-route from Mossend to Aberdeen Waterloo behind 66004, conveying a trial load of tank containers on FKA wagons, which had originated from Teesport on the existing 4S92 service. I'm not sure what's in them, and I'm not aware of any container traffic running on the Waterloo branch before.

Should be returning this afternoon as 4D03
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...23-12-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
 

Malaxa

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Tbf Ripple Lane is more a happy accident for Channel Tunnel freight, the yard upgrade itself is to allow existing London Gateway, Tilbury2 traffic to have more 650/775m paths for cross-London traffic.
I went past Ripple Lane yesterday on the Overground and the place looked like it had been vacated! Not a container or flat to be seen, rails looking somewhat rusty. Which seems in stark contrast with this upbeat paper earlier this year from Network Rail:
 

littledude

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A couple of interesting developments:

4X51 ran last night from Hartlepool to Willesden Euro, 66509 hauling 20 FSA intermodal flats conveying concrete tunnel segments for HS2.
The factory producing them is located on the Hartlepool Docks branch (I can't remember any other traffic using this branch for many years).
https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news...-begins-at-new-strabag-facility-in-hartlepool

The wagons had the "cassettes" (which carry the segments) loaded at Southampton, departing as 4E96 to Hunslet yard on 23/11 and continuing to Hartlepool on 24th November as 4N52 from Hunslet, but last night was the first southbound loaded run (the loco arrived light from Tees Dock as 0N52).

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H04945/2023-12-11/detailed

There's a video already uploaded to YouTube of 4X51 passing through Hartlepool station:

Channel: ItzNotCarly23 | Video: 4X51 Hartlepool PD Ports - Willesden Euroterminal HS2 Freightliner Orange 66509 11th December 2023

**

Meanwhile there's a 4A02 en-route from Mossend to Aberdeen Waterloo behind 66004, conveying a trial load of tank containers on FKA wagons, which had originated from Teesport on the existing 4S92 service. I'm not sure what's in them, and I'm not aware of any container traffic running on the Waterloo branch before.

Should be returning this afternoon as 4D03
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...23-12-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
I’m under the impression that the commodity on 4A02 is drilling mud for the oil industry. If so, it’s interesting not only for the commodity but also for the fact that it ought to be well within reach of coastal shipping! Not that we should be complaining…
 

AY1975

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DC Railfreight have STP schedules currently in for Tuesday, loaded 1124 6Z35 Willesden to Chessington South and 1956 6Z36 empty return, if running it will be the first working to the Cappagh site
Any more news about any further freight flows to or from Chessington South since that one early last year that was mentioned upthread, or any plans to revive the former coal terminal there? I'm not aware of any.
 

zwk500

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I went past Ripple Lane yesterday on the Overground and the place looked like it had been vacated! Not a container or flat to be seen, rails looking somewhat rusty. Which seems in stark contrast with this upbeat paper earlier this year from Network Rail:
Tbf a yard being empty could indicate traffic was flowing freely, as roads are being kept.clear.
 

ExRes

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Any more news about any further freight flows to or from Chessington South since that one early last year that was mentioned upthread, or any plans to revive the former coal terminal there? I'm not aware of any.
There's been an irregular as required service to Chessington South, the most recent trips were on 3rd and 5th October, with double headed 56s on the 3rd, and just a few days ago on 7th December, originally there was talk that spoil may be brought out of Chessington but as far as I'm aware it's remained delivery only
 

AY1975

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There's been an irregular as required service to Chessington South, the most recent trips were on 3rd and 5th October, with double headed 56s on the 3rd, and just a few days ago on 7th December, originally there was talk that spoil may be brought out of Chessington but as far as I'm aware it's remained delivery only
Do you have the links for the 3rd or 5th October trips on Real Time Trains (or any other train running website) by any chance, please?
 

ExRes

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Do you have the links for the 3rd or 5th October trips on Real Time Trains (or any other train running website) by any chance, please?

I don't think links will still exist after this time but the two services were

3rd October - 56091 & 56301 1201 6O15 Willesden DC to Chessington South then 56301 & 56091 1945 4Z17 return

5th October - 60029 on 6O15 and 6Z17 return
 

Rhysdabeast

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Do you have the links for the 3rd or 5th October trips on Real Time Trains (or any other train running website) by any chance, please?
03/10/2023
6O15 12:01 Willesden Dc Rail Sidings to Chessington South

4Z17 19:45 Chessington South to Willesden Dc Rail Sidings

05/10/2023
6O15 12:01 Willesden Dc Rail Sidings to Chessington South

6Z17 19:45 Chessington South to Willesden Dc Rail Sidings
 

BRX

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I went past Ripple Lane yesterday on the Overground and the place looked like it had been vacated! Not a container or flat to be seen, rails looking somewhat rusty. Which seems in stark contrast with this upbeat paper earlier this year from Network Rail:

Thanks for the link to that paper - I'd not seen it before. It gives a very useful summary of the current situation.

I see that NR have actually since committed (?) to clearing the "classic" route from Dollands Moor to Wembley for W9a gauge, within the next 5 years or so:


That will mean that the route can carry swap bodies. I hadn't appreciated that the move towards increasing use of swap bodies was a significant factor in the disappearance of intermodal traffic. The gauge clearance should have been done years ago!
 

lyndhurst25

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Doncaster iport is to double in size with increased capacity for container storage and additional daily trains. Planning consent has been granted. Work to commence Q1 2024 completion by Q1 2025.


When the iPort was first built there was talk of some of the trains being routed over the South Yorkshire Joint Line, but AFAIK this never happened. I wonder if any the extra trains will be sent that way? At the moment the line is being maintained but has very little commercial traffic, just test trains and occasional stock movements from Doncaster to Worksop or Langwith Junction.
 
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When the iPort was first built there was talk of some of the trains being routed over the South Yorkshire Joint Line, but AFAIK this never happened. I wonder if any the extra trains will be sent that way? At the moment the line is being maintained but has very little commercial traffic, just test trains and occasional stock movements from Doncaster to Worksop or Langwith Junction.

At the moment this would require a runround at Dn Decoy which would limit the length of trains to @480m as there is no direct entrance to iPort from Firbeck Jn direction.
 

HST125Scorton

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Anyone know why the flows to and from Leyland B Leyland has died off? Quite regularly there flow with GBRf that ran most days and also Freightliner to/from Tunstead which as also gone quiet.
 
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At the moment this would require a runround at Dn Decoy which would limit the length of trains to @480m as there is no direct entrance to iPort from Firbeck Jn direction.
The majority of iPort trains already currently require a run around. This is done on the Hexthorpe goods lines south of Doncaster station - as you say they would otherwise be length limited if they did so in Down Decoy.

There is a rumour of regauging works currently being underway to allow the route via South Yorks to be available for the iport container traffic.
 

Adrian Barr

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Anyone know why the flows to and from Leyland B Leyland has died off? Quite regularly there flow with GBRf that ran most days and also Freightliner to/from Tunstead which as also gone quiet.

I'm not sure, the most recent working of the MJA set GBRF were using was from Rylstone to Leyland as 6M98 on 23rd November, after which its only loaded workings have been a 6Z71 Rylstone - Scunthorpe on 29th November, and 6H97 Rylstone - Peterborough workings on 11th and 13th December.

spent a few hours at Doncaster today with only 1 movement of note through the station

I turned up at Doncaster (my local station) today to watch 6K01 Doncaster Belmont - Dalreoch pass through behind 37405 and 37254 on a rail discharge train (RDT). Doncaster might seem like a strange place to start a possession train heading into Scotland, but the RDT had arrived earlier in the morning on the trip from Scunthorpe (I think the 37s were required due to the Balloch branch not being cleared for 66s). I was only at the station for half an hour and saw two intermodals pass through as a bonus... it really depends when you go, the next freight wasn't until 6 hours later (this was a Saturday). Like Freightmaster says, definitely best to plan ahead based on an idea of what's running.

6K01 should be running back south tomorrow during daylight hours: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:B15210/2023-12-17/detailed

There's a reasonable amount of freight through Doncaster station, but it's not evenly distributed through the day. Looking at Thursday 14th, I counted 36 freight movements in 24 hours (not including light engines). Between 9am and 11am there were six freights. Between 5pm and 7pm there were five freights. But in the the middle, between 11am and 5pm... only two! Those 36 movements break down as 17 intermodals, 8 aggregates, 4 infrastructure trips, 4 overnight biomass diversions via Brigg, 6N03 Jarrow tanks diverted via Brigg, and the bricks to/from Heck. These numbers are slightly inflated by the overnight Brigg diversions (of 6N03 and the 4 biomass) but not too bad overall.

Another thing to bear in mind at Doncaster is that the avoiding line is not far away. A ten minute walk from the station, following the main road over the north bridge (at the north end of the station, accessed through the bus interchange and up some steps) brings you to a good vantage point where you can stand on a pedestrian footbridge at a road junction and watch anything coming past on the avoider. These pics (not mine) show the view in each direction:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/79433172@N07/38957694891/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/79433172@N07/38241770294/
Maybe not that great for photography, and movements are sparse, but there are some interesting steel and coal workings which avoid the station. On Thursday 14th there was one steel and one coal train passing through within half an hour of each other around 15:30 (trains vary depending on day of the week, especially the steel trains to Hull and Immingham which are a little unpredictable, but if you're already at Doncaster you can keep an eye on what's running). Another location not far away is Hatfield & Stainforth, another place which can be good if you pick the right time, and desolate if you don't! Thursday 14th would have been fairly uneventful for much of the day, with the usual biomass trains, but between 15:30 and 18:00 you could have seen 2 biomass, 1 coal, the Wolves to Immingham empty steel coils, the empty tanks from Neville Hill to Lindsey and the Lackenby to Scunthorpe steel empties. Not an appealing place to linger in December, but OK in the summer!

Another consideration is that the main focus of traffic at Doncaster is actually a little to the south. Where the road bridge crosses the lines between Up and Down Decoy, a count of the trains passing underneath in 24 hours (on Thursday 14th again) expands to 60 movements! Admittedly this is inflated by 6 of the Iport intermodals passing through in both directions to run round on the goods at Hexthorpe, but you could also add on the occasional shunt movements between the Wood Yard and Up Decoy or Belmont, which pass underneath. These movements break down as 39 intermodals, 4 infrastructure trips, 8 aggregates, 3 overnight biomass diversions via Brigg, 6N03 Jarrow tanks via Brigg, 1 coal train via Brigg, and the return Plasmor bricks from Heck.

There would have been a slight lull at lunchtime, but 13 movements between 08:00 and 13:00 (2 of which are the same train passing twice, so make that 11), or 14 movements between 15:00 and 20:00 (1 of which is the 4L00 passing twice, so 13 in total) is not too bad... as long as you don't mind containers! It's on a busy main road, so not the nicest place to watch trains for too long, but there are wide footpaths, the parapet isn't ridiculously high, and it's OK if the weather is reasonable. There should be regular buses from the interchange (by the station) down to Lakeside Shopping village, which is close to the bridge. As a bonus there are usually various GBRF locos stabled here, sometimes including a 69 or 60, and you get a view of either Down Decoy sidings or Up Decoy yard, depending which side of the bridge you are on. I've seen over a dozen locos at this location on a bank holiday weekend. The view in each direction (not my pics):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanpadley/40760122533/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanpadley/32536503662/

The only recent traffic losses through Doncaster that come to mind are the daily lunchtime spoil/waste train from Rossington to Roxby, and the weekly Lindsey to Ipswich tanks. On the plus side the Hartlepool tunnel segment trains are routed through, the southbound 4X51 passing around 10pm if I can summon up the energy to leave the house and brave the cold one of these days...
 

Gaz67

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Irwell vale
We used to go to the avoiding line in the early 80s on our spotting trips to Doncaster, usually about 6 to 10 workings over about 6 hours, well worth it for us Manchester lads as it was 31/37s. The abiding memory was the "sweaty cheese smell" which when I get a whiff takes me right back to that location, the same with the brewery smell at Haymarket. Happy times.
 

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