Rail Freight Flows and News UK

[Numbskull100]

When you see that, read "something might happen here". We have that on some liners via Wembley where all that happens is a crew change or pathing stop.

Could be a run around, crew change, division of a jumbo etc. Could also be absolutely nothing.

 

[zwk500]

Can you please explain what this train (6A59) is about? Gaining and loosing "coaches" at Piccadilly and Stalybridge and running round there rather than say Guide Bridge East/Hyde Junction loop?
Surely they haven't left "coaches" at Picc?

That information is transmitted in a series of data codes at each stop in the schedules. Freight has a default activity code of setting down and picking up wagons at any stop, and if the codes are not entered right the default can crop up again downstream.
OpenTrainTimes has the correct activity codes and doesn't show the Gaining/losing coaches or wagons at all. https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/R09843/2024-04-20

Code -T means 'stopping to attach/detach vehicles' and applies to Passenger and Freight stock equally so RTT has converted 'vehicles' into 'coaches'. Certain codes overwrite the default activity, but others (including stopping for pathing or a crew change) do not, and it is easy to get the '*' code required to suppress the default in the wrong order (it needs to be first).

 

[littledude]

Can you please explain what this train (6A59) is about? Gaining and loosing "coaches" at Piccadilly and Stalybridge and running round there rather than say Guide Bridge East/Hyde Junction loop?
Surely they haven't left "coaches" at Picc?

The gaining/losing vehicles is an unfortunate quirk with the train planning software

 

[EastWest]

Can you please explain what this train (6A59) is about? Gaining and loosing "coaches" at Piccadilly and Stalybridge and running round there rather than say Guide Bridge East/Hyde Junction loop?
Surely they haven't left "coaches" at Picc?

I assume that description is a general catch-all and in this case it is more likely to be for pathing or staff change purposes. In fact it only appears to have spent a quarter of a minute there anyway! It does seem a bit strange though that they have seemingly lugged empty wagons about 300 miles from Kent to North Wales then about 250 miles from Manchester back to Kent, for a loaded journey of barely 100 miles - doesn’t appear to make sense either economically or environmentally.

 

[furnessvale]

I assume that description is a general catch-all and in this case it is more likely to be for pathing or staff change purposes. In fact it only appears to have spent a quarter of a minute there anyway! It does seem a bit strange though that they have seemingly lugged empty wagons about 300 miles from Kent to North Wales then about 250 miles from Manchester back to Kent, for a loaded journey of barely 100 miles - doesn’t appear to make sense either economically or environmentally.

Economically I have to agree, but environmentally, even with the massive amount of empty running, the train has still not emitted as much CO2 as HGVs carrying the same load, assuming the HGVs ran one way empty to collect the load.

 

[zwk500]

I assume that description is a general catch-all and in this case it is more likely to be for pathing or staff change purposes. In fact it only appears to have spent a quarter of a minute there anyway! It does seem a bit strange though that they have seemingly lugged empty wagons about 300 miles from Kent to North Wales then about 250 miles from Manchester back to Kent, for a loaded journey of barely 100 miles - doesn’t appear to make sense either economically or environmentally.

As mentioned above, 'Stops to detach and attach vehicles' is the default activity for freight trains (in the same way 'Stops to set down and take up passengers' is the default activity for passenger trains). RTT renders this as 'service gains/loses coaches'. Some codes override the default activity, but others (such as 'stops or shunts to let other trains pass', also known as stopping for pathing reasons) do not and the planners who input the schedule in the system need to enter an dummy activity in the first position and then put the actual activity in second place.
For various reasons, it is very easy for the dummy activity to be missed entirely or put in the wrong place. When this happens, as the schedule gets passed between the various back-end systems the software automatically stamps the default activity back in first place.

It's the same reason passenger trains will sometimes show passenger stops at Loops or Junctions.

The gaining/losing vehicles is an unfortunate quirk with the train planning software

It is avoidable if people put the star first when it's needed! However once the schedule has acquired the -T/OP they tend to be left in because people tend to think they're intended rather than data errors.

 

[billh]

Thanks to all for explanations. I saw the shiny silver empties going back to Kent on Saturday, so it wasn't all virtual!

 

[RetroCrowe]

This may well translate to nothing, but tomorrow's 6J37 Carlisle to Chirk Logs is booked to be diverted via Manchester and the Mid-Cheshire Line. As far as I'm aware, this diversion has only ever happened once or twice before, but on a multiple occasions it has been put into the system but never ended up running. Just something to keep an eye on and see if it amounts to anything because this will be a very rare move if it does indeed go ahead

Realtime Trains | 6J37 1252 Carlisle Yard Colas Rail to Chirk Kronospan Colas Rail | 06/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 6J37 1252 departure from Carlisle Yard Colas Rail to Chirk Kronospan Colas Rail on 06/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Rail Quest]

This may well translate to nothing, but tomorrow's 6J37 Carlisle to Chirk Logs is booked to be diverted via Manchester and the Mid-Cheshire Line. As far as I'm aware, this diversion has only ever happened once or twice before, but on a multiple occasions it has been put into the system but never ended up running. Just something to keep an eye on and see if it amounts to anything because this will be a very rare move if it does indeed go ahead

Thanks for the heads up - got my fingers crossed and will keep an eye out. I have a feeling it being a bank holiday tomorrow will negate the need for it to run

 

[Freightmaster]

I have a feeling it being a bank holiday tomorrow will negate the need for it to run

It's been (manually) activated, which is good sign!



MARK

 

[RetroCrowe]

It's been (manually) activated, which is good sign!



MARK

Now that it's looking more promising, we'll have to see if it's operated by 56049 or 70811, as both are at Carlisle, should it run. 70811 would be the real interesting option since, as far as I'm aware, no Class 70s have ever operated along the portion of the Mid-Cheshire Line between Hartford Junction and Mickle Trafford

 

[Rail Quest]

as far as I'm aware, no Class 70s have ever operated along the portion of the Mid-Cheshire Line between Hartford Junction and Mickle Trafford

There was one a handful of years ago, again on a log diversion. I remember seeing it at Altrincham

If there's only one grid in Carlisle, I'd imagine the 70 will be the obvious choice perhaps?

Yep 6J37 has indeed left Carlisle, excellent! @RetroCrowe just seen you allocation request in the TOPS thread so double 70s? The last time I saw two 70s on logs was when 806 failed last year, and I certainly don't think double 70s have ever done mid cheshire

 

[RetroCrowe]

There was one a handful of years ago, again on a log diversion. I remember seeing it at Altrincham

If there's only one grid in Carlisle, I'd imagine the 70 will be the obvious choice perhaps?

Yep 6J37 has indeed left Carlisle, excellent! @RetroCrowe just seen you allocation request in the TOPS thread so double 70s? The last time I saw two 70s on logs was when 806 failed last year, and I certainly don't think double 70s have ever done mid cheshire

Double 70s is certainly interesting if that's true. I can remember last time a 6J37 Mid-Cheshire diversion appeared on RTT, a few folk raised questions about some of the steep gradients between Blackburn and Manchester but single 66s have managed it fine with 6J37 diversions in the past - should be no problem for a 70. Could be incorrect allocations on TOPS or could be a case of one of the 70s being DIT and just being moved to another yard like what GBRf often do on the Biomass?

 

[Greybeard33]

Double 70s is certainly interesting if that's true. I can remember last time a 6J37 Mid-Cheshire diversion appeared on RTT, a few folk raised questions about some of the steep gradients between Blackburn and Manchester but single 66s have managed it fine with 6J37 diversions in the past - should be no problem for a 70. Could be incorrect allocations on TOPS or could be a case of one of the 70s being DIT and just being moved to another yard like what GBRf often do on the Biomass?

This train is going round through Euxton and Chorley to get from Blackburn to Bolton, not up the bank through Darwen.

Edit: I saw it passing through Hale, 10L. It is indeed double 70s!

 

[5562]

Does anyone know the frequency of transfer workings into and out of Bredon's Hope works and Earles Sidings.

 

[Adrian Barr]

Does anyone know the frequency of transfer workings into and out of Bredon's Hope works and Earles Sidings.

Maybe someone will chime in with a bit of local knowledge, but failing that you can get an idea of the number of daily movements required on the branch from the number of trains into Earles.

This video mentions that the trains using PCAs (Dewsbury and Walsall) run with 36 wagons, which are tripped from the cement works in two rakes of 18:

Video: Earles Sidings (Hope) Cement Train Full Working | Channel: Northumberland Snapper

I assume loaded movements are normally split into portions for trips along the branch to make the weight more manageable for the Class 20s involved.

The coal trains from Immingham run with 18 HTAs which are split into 3 rakes of 6, as seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/35663521@N04/51407493346/

The Dagenham trains usually run with 24 bogie JPAs, and the Theale with 22 bogie JPAs. I think these probably get split into 3, as seen in this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjm2009/51594024825/

Busiest day for movements at Earles last week was Wednesday, with an impressive 6 departures and 3 arrivals (I don't know if this is a typical Wednesday or how much the train plan varies from week to week)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=ZZ
N.B The DB coal workings appear on a different page https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=ZZ

Wed 8th May departures
6E65 0514 to Dewsbury
6L45 0737 to Dagenham
6G65 0919 to Walsall
4E33 1518 to Scunthorpe (coal empties)
6L59 2050 to Dagenham
6V91 2257 to Theale

Wed 8th May arrivals
6M93 ex Dagenham arr 0538
6M87 ex Dewsbury arr 1510
6H62 ex Walsall arr 2057

That would imply 13 loaded cement trips from the works to Earles Sidings (plus the coal empties) and at least 3 movements of empties in the reverse direction. The actual frequency during the day is hard to say, on this day arrivals and departures seem to be clustered into early morning and late evening (with a couple of trains around 15:00) and it depends how soon after arrival wagons are tripped down the branch and vice versa for departures.

Looks like it would be an interesting place to observe the workings if you can catch them at the right time...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93173492@N00/48045576327/

 

[5562]

Really helpful. Many thanks Adrian.
I had seen that video, yesterday in fact.
There’s also a foot crossing half way down the branch but it’s a bit head on for photos. Between the two locations there’s definitely good potential.

 

[ExRes]

Not sure if it's going to be a regular service or not, DCR working Chaddesden to Tyne SS this morning then loaded to Humberstone Rd and scheduled back to Tyne for another run on Tuesday, should be fairly well photographed as 56098 & 56103 are todays traction

 

[Rail Quest]

Not sure if it's going to be a regular service or not, DCR working Chaddesden to Tyne SS this morning then loaded to Humberstone Rd and scheduled back to Tyne for another run on Tuesday, should be fairly well photographed as 56098 & 56103 are todays traction

Would be interesting to see if this becomes regular. Those locos operated the Ravenhead flow yesterday, I'm assuming DCR are sort of allocating the pair as a substitution for a single 60?

 

[ExRes]

I'm assuming DCR are sort of allocating the pair as a substitution for a single 60?

56091 & 56103 worked together efficiently before and as the 60s were entering DCR service, Carlisle/Boston spent ballast was a regular

 

[Freightmaster]

Anyone have any news on the current situation with Quainton Railhead? I believe trains were stopped for infrastructure work to be carried out at the very beginning of March, a period of five weeks was mentioned at that time

Trains (from Tytherington) restart next week




MARK

 

[Adrian Barr]

Coal trains from Immingham Bulk Terminal to Scunthorpe Coal Handling Plant appear to have ceased. There was usually one a day and the most recent ran on 13th May. Closure of the coke ovens at Scunthorpe Steelworks was announced last year, so I assume it's connected with that.

However... coke trains (using the same HTA sets) from the same loading point have replaced the coal workings. The coke trains started running around the end of March / beginning of April. Unlike the coal trains they run into Anchor Sidings on the other side of the line, where they have presumably (?) installed new hopper discharge facilities. At the moment there are typically 3 coke trains per day. The loaded coke trains still require the run round at Scunthorpe Freight Depot, demonstrated here on a coal run in April:

66053 Immingham - Scunthorpe Coal Arrival / Run Around & Departure At Scunthorpe 12/04/24

Meanwhile in South Wales, increasing volumes of slab are being imported through both Newport and Cardiff Docks for Port Talbot steelworks.
In addition to the set of BTA wagons mentioned in this post which have been on these flows for a while, more BYA covered coil wagons are being converted to slab carriers at Stoke wagon works. The converted wagons hitch a lift on the Hardendale to Margam lime train from Warrington Arpley back to South Wales. With the combined fleet of BTAs and BYAs, I think there are now 3 slab sets in regular use.

One such BYA slab carrier is pictured here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/91759729@N08/51863206114/
There is also a variant for carrying coils, as seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/camperdown/52837140775/

6B10 Newport Docks - Margam seen here with loaded slab behind 66110: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisperkins/53718127375/

Only last year there was slab moving in the other direction! This picture shows 60010 at Newport Docks with loaded slab BTAs which have arrived on 6F10 from Margam in August 2023: https://www.flickr.com/photos/70710639@N05/53122816667/
Looking at Google maps, I think 60010 and its train were right at end of the docks branch. Other steel movements at Newport Docks serve a rail-connected warehouse, seen in these photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/70710639@N05/46814304355/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shedonesixnine/53088902401/

At Cardiff Docks, in addition to the import slab flow, imported coil has been forwarded to Trostre (via Margam) in recent weeks. This is in addition to the regular daily flow of coil from Port Talbot to Trostre. A train of JSAs is seen on the loading pad at Cardiff Docks (Roath Dock, "Stonefield Loop" on Trackmaps): https://www.flickr.com/photos/70710639@N05/53706065239/

Tinplate trains from Trostre (KVA / IWA cargowaggons) are still running to Newport and Tilbury Docks, although I don't think any Trostre to Middlesbrough trains (for Crown Packaging according to post #1276 in this thread) have run since DB took over from GBRF on these flows. However, a new export service ran from Trostre to Immingham Docks (Nordic Terminal) on 14th May as a 6Z20, using a similar path to the regular overnight steel coil flow from Margam to Immingham.

A problem with a tunnel on the Swansea District line (and diversions via Landore) means that the Robeston - Theale trains now require double-heading (at least to Margam), in addition to the regular double-heading of the Westerleigh trains. Trains to and from Trostre are also being affected and require "top & tail" working. The diversions are expected to last a few weeks...

 

[Rail Quest]

A problem with a tunnel on the Swansea District line (and diversions via Landore) means that the Robeston - Theale trains now require double-heading (at least to Margam), in addition to the regular double-heading of the Westerleigh trains. Trains to and from Trostre are also being affected and require "top & tail" working. The diversions are expected to last a few weeks...

I believe the Robeston-Theale flows are only double-headed now thanks to the withdrawal of the class 60s, and are being double-headed frequently. This should theoretically go back to one loco when the DB 66/6s are rolled out more widely, theoretically.

 

[Adrian Barr]

I believe the Robeston-Theale flows are only double-headed now thanks to the withdrawal of the class 60s, and are being double-headed frequently. This should theoretically go back to one loco when the DB 66/6s are rolled out more widely, theoretically.

When the Swansea District is open, the Theale trains are normally a single 66 with 22 tanks. The Westerleigh trains are normally 28 tanks with a pair of 66s for the extra weight.

The typical load when 60-hauled was 24 tanks on the Theale and 28 on the Westerleigh workings.

Unusual photo of 66133 on the reception lines at Theale with 6B33 return empties: https://www.flickr.com/photos/86734924@N03/53575456426/

 

[Chingy]

There were two class 66’s on the Theale yesterday. Saw them as I passed on a IET.

 

[Western 52]

There were two class 66’s on the Theale yesterday. Saw them as I passed on a IET.

They are pairs at the moment due to diversions via Landore.

 

[Class15]

Am I correct in thinking that my old favourite working 4L90 has returned? Running today.

 

[marty56110]

Coal trains from Immingham Bulk Terminal to Scunthorpe Coal Handling Plant appear to have ceased. There was usually one a day and the most recent ran on 13th May. Closure of the coke ovens at Scunthorpe Steelworks was announced last year, so I assume it's connected with that.

However... coke trains (using the same HTA sets) from the same loading point have replaced the coal workings. The coke trains started running around the end of March / beginning of April. Unlike the coal trains they run into Anchor Sidings on the other side of the line, where they have presumably (?) installed new hopper discharge facilities. At the moment there are typically 3 coke trains per day. The loaded coke trains still require the run round at Scunthorpe Freight Depot, demonstrated here on a coal run in April:

The coal trains are not running at the moment due to no product at Immingham. Trains are expected to be running again shortly.
Coal trains will continue until the blast furnaces close, the furnaces need a small amount of coal as part of the steel making process.