Rail Industry Recovery Group

[Watershed]

Where Sunday is currently outside of the working week for train crew, bringing it inside would result in increased staffing requirements. So if they're looking to reduce staffing numbers, I guess they could do so by bringing Sunday in but not increasing establishment numbers, meaning redundancy wouldn't be required.

I expect that's exactly the kind of thing that will end up happening. Obviously not every operator or depot is in the same boat, but for those with lots of spare turns it is almost farcical to still pay people overtime to come in on Sundays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect that's exactly the kind of thing that will end up happening. Obviously not every operator or depot is in the same boat, but for those with lots of spare turns it is almost farcical to still pay people overtime to come in on Sundays.

Agreed. Sunday needs to be in the working week. Then we can look to what we should have, namely the same timetable every day (though possibly with a later start on Sundays), like is the norm in Europe. It's just another day now, albeit with a later start to shopping in England. In Scotland it's the same as a Saturday as they don't have the Sunday trading laws.

 

[Robertj21a]

Agreed. Sunday needs to be in the working week. Then we can look to what we should have, namely the same timetable every day (though possibly with a later start on Sundays), like is the norm in Europe. It's just another day now, albeit with a later start to shopping in England. In Scotland it's the same as a Saturday as they don't have the Sunday trading laws.

Quite agree, and so long overdue.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why not? A set of national contracts with bands is generally how it works in the public sector.

Starting with the basic premise of equal pay. Which Driver is worth more ? The one that drives multiple traction and multiple routes or one that drives at 100mph ? I'll initially acept the idea of a banding system but you then have to work out a heirachy. Am I worth more as a Metro Driver who carries thousands of passengers a day than a branchline Driver who carries far fewer but may carry out an essential service ? Now chuck in the other simple complication of grouping Drivers and then leveling out their pay. My nearest TOC notoriously pays much higher than mine for pretty much the same work. Do they have years of pay freezes until our pay catches up or do I suddenly have a wedge of cash lumped onto my salary ? This has hapened so there is some scope here but in times where cost is a major concern how do you give one set of people a huge pay rise and others nada ?

Conditions are just as problematic. Where do you set the bar for something as simple as annual leave ? Do you raise others up or bring others down ? Increasing leave will again, increase staffing levels. It also breaks rostering because you need to allow for more staff time off. There are far too many occasions where staff requiring leave has an impact on the service. Which brings me to another issue with something as simple as annual leave. This agreement states about modern working practices. The TOCs tend to use a block leave system. This prevents massive gaps in the roster or specific days where multiple people require leave. Block leave is generally unfair on the staff. It doesn't work in practice and often leads to low morale. I would welcome a change to leave to be more 'modern' but the railways almost requires such a draconian approach to leave because it prioritises the service. For harmonisation. Which TOC runs the best system ? Leave tends to work well with smaller depots and those where there is less link working constraints so some TOCs have less issues.

Harmonisation has failed and there are a few TOCs out there which depots on seperate terms and conditions. They have failed to harmonise for many years, even on a local level. On a national level ? Yikes !

Something also to consider. This new GB Railway doesn't make the network suddenly publically owned or make us one big happy family. The franchise system is still in place in all but name and will continue to be there for many years to come. For some TOCs there is no incentive to harmonise even between their own franchises. How do you dictate terms on a national scale to a seperate group of companies generating different incomes and with different bottom lines and goals ?

Its a laudable goal and some of which I would like to see implemented, especially to address local disparities and to have a more cohesive railway but something that is years and years away.

 

[142blue]

Waiting for the Boxing Day debate

 

[Statto]

Could easily have shift pattern like, 4 days on, 2 off, or 6 days on, 2 off, that Saturday & Sunday is included as the normal working week, i think the bus industry has these type of shift patterns, it's ridiculous in 2021, weekend work is still voluntary, in a 7 day a week industry.

 

[ComUtoR]

Could easily have shift pattern like, 4 days on, 2 off, or 6 days on, 2 off, that Saturday & Sunday is included as the normal working week, i think the bus industry has these type of shift patterns, it's ridiculous in 2021, weekend work is still voluntary, in a 7 day a week industry.

Firstly can you explain how changing the shift pattern is done 'easily' and secondly yes its ridiculous but its cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could easily have shift pattern like, 4 days on, 2 off, or 6 days on, 2 off, that Saturday & Sunday is included as the normal working week, i think the bus industry has these type of shift patterns, it's ridiculous in 2021, weekend work is still voluntary, in a 7 day a week industry.

Easiest way would be for all new recruits to ALWAYS work Sundays unless they take a day of annual leave. Then most existing staff who don't want to won't have to.

Firstly can you explain how changing the shift pattern is done 'easily' and secondly yes its ridiculous but its cheaper.

It's not acceptable for passengers, though, as the Sunday service is inferior/missing and/or cancelled when it's a nice day. Though to be fair that could be solved another way - you volunteer up front and cannot withdraw that volunteering once it has been given unless sick.

 

[Watershed]

Though to be fair that could be solved another way - you volunteer up front and cannot withdraw that volunteering once it has been given unless sick.

Who's going to volunteer then?

Unfortunately there are also far too many incidents of people calling in "sick" on nice days.

 

[ComUtoR]

Easiest way would be for all new recruits to ALWAYS work Sundays unless they take a day of annual leave. Then most existing staff who don't want to won't have to.

So same company, same depot, different terms and conditions ? Completle oposite to harmonisation and increased fragmentation ?

It's not acceptable for passengers

Nope, totally agree.

Though to be fair that could be solved another way - you volunteer up front and cannot withdraw that volunteering once it has been given unless sick.

Which is what happens at some TOCs already. It isn't a solution because it keeps Sundays outside the week, still relies on volunteers, still alows for 'barbecue sundays', still doesn't guarantee a service.

 

[choochoochoo]

So same company, same depot, different terms and conditions ? Completle oposite to harmonisation and increased fragmentation ?



Nope, totally agree.




Which is what happens at some TOCs already. It isn't a solution because it keeps Sundays outside the week, still relies on volunteers, still alows for 'barbecue sundays', still doesn't guarantee a service.

Isn't this what committed sundays is for ? Sunday shifts are included in the roster and staff are asked to commit to specific number of sundays in their roster(well in advance). - You can 'throw away' other sundays, but it gives rosters much more notice on any sundays with projected shortfalls.

There is the unlikely event that staff all co-ordinate their sundays off together, but that would have to be done at the date they commit to the sundays. - I suspect it is still possible to go sick, but it would look highly suspicious if it was always sundays you were ill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So same company, same depot, different terms and conditions ? Completle oposite to harmonisation and increased fragmentation ?

Maybe it's because of the Unionised and structured nature of things on t'railway and the way the IT industry is the complete opposite, but I don't see that as a massive problem provided the HR department can keep up with it. In the company I work for there are loads of people who have been brought in via takeovers (me included) and remain on their old T&Cs with no particular plan to ever bother changing them. It's just one of those things. It has upsides and downsides - the package is just different. There are things I'd like about harmonisation and things I wouldn't.

It does have precedent on the railway, though, for example (well, the Tube) the Night Tube having a totally separate set of part-time, permanent nights drivers.

 

[matt_world2004]

Aren't some of the frequency reductions on Sundays to accommodate engineering works particularly on four track lines

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't some of the frequency reductions on Sundays to accommodate engineering works particularly on four track lines

Some are, yes, but I'm thinking more of "no Sunday service" type lines (this is silly in 2021) and the likes.

FWIW for the bulk of the day Avanti West Coast is the same every day.

 

[TheEdge]

Easiest way would be for all new recruits to ALWAYS work Sundays unless they take a day of annual leave. Then most existing staff who don't want to won't have to.

Unless of course a depot has a roster where annual leave is within the roster which means your new starts now need their own roster to go along with their own T&Cs and own rate of pay.

Maybe it's because of the Unionised and structured nature of things on t'railway and the way the IT industry is the complete opposite, but I don't see that as a massive problem provided the HR department can keep up with it. In the company I work for there are loads of people who have been brought in via takeovers (me included) and remain on their old T&Cs with no particular plan to ever bother changing them. It's just one of those things. It has upsides and downsides - the package is just different. There are things I'd like about harmonisation and things I wouldn't.

Its not HR that need to keep up with it, it's rosters and getting trains covered, a problem the IT industry just doesn't have. Like my point above, a depot where annual leave is within the roster (that is the weeks of leave are built in to it) leaves the roster clerks not having to worry about covering work. Depots where it is outside its something the needs to be kept on top of. If you start mixing both those systems at the same depot it would become an absolute rostering nightmare, especially when those systems have different rostering rules.

Isn't this what committed sundays is for ? Sunday shifts are included in the roster and staff are asked to commit to specific number of sundays in their roster(well in advance). - You can 'throw away' other sundays, but it gives rosters much more notice on any sundays with projected shortfalls.

I work with committed Sundays and IMO its the best system. Sunday work gets covered and you don't end up with the situations we saw recently in the Midlands with the Sunday service falling to pieces. But it still allows people who want to get rid of the Sunday's that option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I work with committed Sundays and IMO its the best system. Sunday work gets covered and you don't end up with the situations we saw recently in the Midlands with the Sunday service falling to pieces. But it still allows people who want to get rid of the Sunday's that option.

Yes, true. The main issue is caused by people not volunteering at the last minute, either because it's a nice day or because some sort of dispute is going on. If people commit up front and can't then withdraw after a deadline unless ill, it is possible to plan properly.

 

[ComUtoR]

There are things I'd like about harmonisation and things I wouldn't.

I agree. But then that accepts that everyone can be on different terms and conditions etc. Something that looks to go against this new framework.

It does have precedent on the railway, though, for example (well, the Tube) the Night Tube having a totally separate set of part-time, permanent nights drivers.

Another example of modern working practices. The HUGE elephant in the room is that it has always been the TOCs that have been averse to these changes. Staff want more flexible working and the Union has a strong desire for Sundays being inside. For as long as its cheaper and easier to maintain the status quo then there is no incentive to change. All these desired changes will increase costs. I'm stunned the RIRG doesn't see this. Looks real pretty on paper and when making public statements. Just far removed from reality.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I work with committed Sundays and IMO its the best system. Sunday work gets covered and you don't end up with the situations we saw recently in the Midlands with the Sunday service falling to pieces. But it still allows people who want to get rid of the Sunday's that option.

The way this needs to work is unions need to accept that change needs to happen and engage with management to be an integral part of the process so its not imposed. The union reps need take soundings from members about what is the best way to achieve the goal of running the planned service without voluntary overtime and then put a limited number of options to membership ie your proposal. It also needs to be harmonised across all passenger operators run by a govt concession.

 

[TheEdge]

The way this needs to work is unions need to accept that change needs to happen and engage with management to be an integral part of the process so its not imposed. The union reps need take soundings from members about what is the best way to achieve the goal of running the planned service without voluntary overtime and then put a limited number of options to membership ie your proposal. It also needs to be harmonised across all passenger operators run by a govt concession.

As has been said several times, the Unions have wanted Sundays in the working week for ages, its been the TOCs pushing against it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As has been said several times, the Unions have wanted Sundays in the working week for ages, its been the TOCs pushing against it.

Presumably because they potentially, as a number of posters have said, need more staff so would affect the bottom line but as a concession operator they are freed of this problem. I wonder how these sort of basic principles are being dealt with by D of T ie will they underwrite an increase in base salary costs of an operator to ensure a reliable service is run on Sunday as that will in the long generate leisure traffic defacto hard cash.

 

[matt_world2004]

Presumably because they potentially, as a number of posters have said, need more staff so would affect the bottom line but as a concession operator they are freed of this problem. I wonder how these sort of basic principles are being dealt with by D of T ie will they underwrite an increase in base salary costs of an operator to ensure a reliable service is run on Sunday as that will in the long generate leisure traffic defacto hard cash.

Concession contracts work by giving the operator a timetable to run on Sundays and huge fines for the operator if they do not run the required frequency on Sundays. There would be no need for the dft to underwrite salaries for Sunday working.

A fine for a train cancellation on tfl rail/Elizabeth line runs between £10 000 -£50 000 at that sort of financial loss operators would he incentivised to resource adequate train crew for Sunday working. The operators who bid the lowest cost on the assumption they can make Sunday working part of the working week will win the contract.

 

[RT4038]

As has been said several times, the Unions have wanted Sundays in the working week for ages, its been the TOCs pushing against it.

Ultimately the DfT for not wanting higher prices/lower premiums from franchise bidders. The additional costs will have to be paid for somehow, and it probably won't be higher taxation.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Concession contracts work by giving the operator a timetable to run on Sundays and huge fines for the operator if they do not run the required frequency on Sundays. There would be no need for the dft to underwrite salaries for Sunday working.

A fine for a train cancellation on tfl rail/Elizabeth line runs between £10 000 -£50 000 at that sort of financial loss operators would he incentivised to resource adequate train crew for Sunday working. The operators who bid the lowest cost on the assumption they can make Sunday working part of the working week will win the contract.

This is good method of incentivisation but risks every operator doing its own thing again though which has pros and cons of course.

 

[matt_world2004]

This is good method of incentivisation but risks every operator doing its own thing again though which has pros and cons of course.

One of the only things and operator under a concession agreement has control of is employment contracts. Industrial relations and terms and conditions . If the government harmonised terms and conditions across the rail industry they would only attract bids for the same value. In that case they may as well dispense with the concession contracts completely and just directly operate the trains themselves

Concession agreements require operators to push what is legally permissible under employment law to the limit while trying to maintain the good will of staff at the same time to ensure they are flexible and reliable.

Some operators requiring remote sign on on London buses proove this

 

[Bald Rick]

Concession contracts work by giving the operator a timetable to run on Sundays and huge fines for the operator if they do not run the required frequency on Sundays. There would be no need for the dft to underwrite salaries for Sunday working.

A fine for a train cancellation on tfl rail/Elizabeth line runs between £10 000 -£50 000 at that sort of financial loss operators would he incentivised to resource adequate train crew for Sunday working. The operators who bid the lowest cost on the assumption they can make Sunday working part of the working week will win the contract.

Yes the Concession is incentivised, but it also makes sure the full costs are accounted for in the bid, which pushes the price up. Not for nothing is London Overground one of the most highly subsidised operators, despite having high passenger numbers and low train mileage.

The DfT contracts may or may not have similar levels of incentives. My bet is not.

 

[Frankfurt]

I'm not sure that harmonisation across all TOCs is practical or even reasonable. There are far too many hurdles to overcome.




Sunday provision for TOCs that don't already have Sundays as part of the working week comes with an increase in staffing levels. Bit of a catch 22 situation when the DfT and RIRG are asking for a reduction in costs. How any of this is expected to be agreed to before December is insane.

I completely agree.

 

[IanXC]

If there is a desire to alight T&Cs, and even this is a big task, but I've wondered whether aligning all the various terms and conditions across TOCs into a number of harmonised sets of terms isn't the way forward. For instance TOC 1 and TOC 2 are broadly similar, and move to T&C A, 3 and 4 to B except those at 3 who historically transferred from TOC 2 and thus move to T&C A. At least this begins to chip away at the variation and narrows the sheer range of questions on the table.

 

[Class 170101]

The complicated DLR Network operates automatically & is driverless & 95% of it is outdoors.
The on board staff person does not take over driving when it rains.
So what is this rain problem?

The computer doesn't seem to drive as smoothly as some drivers, if the Central Line is anything to go by. In terms of the DLR bear in mind the London Connections report linked in posts above refers to DLR NOT being allowed to be built from scratch now if it was built the way it has been since the 1980s and as such has 'Grandfather Rights'

 

[PupCuff]

There's a lot of unknowns in this, but the positive of it does seem to be there is a focus on redeployment and upskilling where appropriate - anything which supports the development of the workforce is a good call as the industry is not in a great position currently in terms of availability of the people with the right skills.

Things on the railway need to change; but we've known that since before Covid anyway. No doubt the voluntary severance scheme will be sufficiently attractive to encourage those who were considering retirement anyway, or don't like the idea of change, to be suitably recompensed for moving on.

I think folk should give it all a fair chance before falling in assuming the naysaying headlines about massive job cuts and whatnot are accurate. We'll still need people to carry on staffing the railway, whether they're cleaning the trains, driving them, signalling them, controlling them, planning them, making sure they're fixed, making sure they run safely etc.

 

[LAX54]

I see the Government is planning to change the employment laws to make it against the law to make people work in the Office etc, making working at home easier, is this a back door way of then saying, well, the trains do not get so much use now, we can cut back on the level of service, and cut back on staff numbers in TOC's, and save a few quid ? Signalmen, P Way Staff, S&T etc largely unaffected, and maybe FOC staff too, but TOC's would take the hit ?