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Rail renationalisation- do you support it?

Do you think the railways should be renationalised?


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Bromley boy

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It is an argument for nationalisation bare minimum staffing while not training drivers, leads to high pay and driver shortages

Not an argument for nationalisation. High pay for fewer drivers is cheaper overall.

There are plenty of jobs more difficult, more stressful and can create more safety risks than a train driver eg Firefighter, Police officer, nurse, all get paid less

And there we have it - you’re saying that a job you’ve never done is more/less difficult than other jobs you’ve never done.

I used to think train drivers were very well paid, now I do the job I no longer think that. That’s because I’m now viewing the matter from a position of knowledge rather than a position of ignorance.

Anecdotes are not evidence

See the post above! It used to go on.


I have actually answered this question already in this thread, and I will repeat the answer again. yes do you know what for my job I am overpaid, my pay is pushed up by similar jobs in the rail industry, pushing the salary up. I earn twice the salary I was earning being a carer being for young children with severe disabilities, with less benefits, and in a truly fair society, a carer would be earning twice what I was earning. I would say I am overpaid by about £6000

Well if you believe you’re overpaid that’s your issue. Don’t come on here and tell me I’m overpaid for my job (which you’ve never even done).

Wages have nothing to do with fairness. I know someone who earns £600,000+ per year for advising wealthy individuals how to pay less tax.
 
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Bromley boy

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Thing is these are anecdotes, which is not evidence. The RAIB report into the trap and drag at Hayes & Harlington two years ago certainly sounds like a coverup was attempted.

What?!

He’s just said he investigated these incidents personally.

Not anecdotes at all.
 

matt_world2004

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And there we have it - you’re saying that a job you’ve never done is more/less difficult than other jobs you’ve never done.

I used to think train drivers were very well paid, now I do the job I no longer think that. That’s because I’m now viewing the matter from a position of knowledge rather than a position of instruments.

So are you seriously saying that those individuals who walked into the Grenfall tower deserve to be paid less than you. Thats quite offensive really.
I didn't say your job was easy



Well if you believe you’re overpaid that’s your issue. Don’t come on here and tell me I’m overpaid for my job (which you’ve never even done).

Wages have nothing to do with fairness. I know someone who earns £600,000+ per year for advising wealthy individuals how to pay less tax.
You have never done a firefighting either yet you are making the same judgement and the argument that you have made here contradicts what you were saying above. You are making this argument an emotional one, when it is purely a rational one.
 

Bromley boy

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So are you seriously saying that those individuals who walked into the Grenfall tower deserve to be paid less than you. Thats quite offensive really.
I didn't say your job was easy




You have never done a firefighting either yet you are making the same judgement and the argument that you have made here contradicts what you were saying above. You are making this argument an emotional one, when it is purely a rational one.

And that's the definition of a straw man argument, if ever I saw one.

I have never done the job of firefighting and I have made absolutely no comment on their pay. Maybe they should be paid more! On the contrary, you are the one saying X job you've never done is less worthy of pay than Y job you've also never done.

What is it you do on the railway? I suggest you get your application in for driver and (if you're successful) we will soon see if you believe drivers are overpaid, having done the job yourself.
 
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Bromley boy

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Good he could find the health and safety reports highlighting this issue then. Evidence not anecdotes. Thats an anecdote. This is the definition of an anecdote http://www.dictionary.com/browse/anecdote

It is commonly knowledge throughout the industry how things used to be under BR, and the things drivers and other staff used to get away with that would see them crucified now. Your refusal to accept this widely known fact makes me question whether you really work on the railway yourself.
 

matt_world2004

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And that's a text book example of a straw man argument, if ever I saw one.

I have never done the job of firefighting and I have made absolutely no comment on their pay. Maybe they should be paid more! On the contrary, you are the one saying X job you've never done is less worthy of pay than Y job you've also never done.

What is it you do on the railway? I suggest you get your application in for driver and (if you're successful) we will soon see if you believe drivers are overpaid, having done the job yourself.
I don't work on the railway- but my job is mirrored in the railway industry which in turn pushes my salary up. I don't need to be a firefighter to know its a difficult job. I know being a train driver is more difficult than my job. but in the scale of difficulties, I would put firefighter at the most difficult job with my job being the least difficult.
 

matt_world2004

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It is commonly knowledge throughout the industry how things used to be under BR, and the things drivers and other staff used to get away with that would see them crucified now. Your refusal to accept this widely known fact makes me question whether you really work on the railway yourself.

Good there will be evidence of it then. There was evidence about the attempted coverup by GwR at Hayes & Harlington.
 

Bromley boy

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I don't need to be a firefighter to know its a difficult job. I know being a train driver is more difficult than my job. but in the scale of difficulties, I would put firefighter at the most difficult job with my job being the least difficult.

In that case we can conclude this discussion, having established that you don't even work on the railway and yet are on here telling me my job you've never done is less deserving than another job you've never done, and questioning the statements of an experienced HSE investigator whose job you've also never done .

Give it up.
 

matt_world2004

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In that case we can conclude this discussion, having established that you don't even work on the railway and yet are on here telling me my job you've never done is less deserving than another job you've never done, and questioning the statements of an experienced HSE investigator whose job you've also never done .

Give it up.
Well the experianced HSE investigator would be able to find the reports he made on the matter, which would now be the subject of public record, unless he never actually reported on it. Until there is its just an anecdote. Can I ask did you work for British Rail?
 

Bromley boy

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Well the experianced HSE investigator would be able to find the reports he made on the matter, which would now be the subject of public record, unless he never actually reported on it. Until there is its just an anecdote. Can I ask did you work for British Rail?

Doubtful, much of this happened before the advent of the internet and won't necessarily be a matter of public record. It's also been explained to you that voice recording of driver-signaller interactions was introduced for this very reason.

I didn't work under BR but I know quite a few drivers who did. More to the point, as someone who doesn't even work in the industry, what on earth qualifies you to question their accounts of what being a train driver was like under BR?!

I suggest you stop digging that hole!
 

matt_world2004

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Doubtful, much of this happened before the advent of the internet and won't necessarily be a matter of public record. It's also been explained to you that voice recording of driver-signaller interactions was introduced for this very reason.

I didn't work under BR but I know quite a few drivers who did. More to the point, as someone who doesn't even work in the industry, what on earth qualifies you to question their accounts of what being a train driver was like under BR?!

I suggest you stop digging that hole!
So you didn't work for them , yet are commenting on the safety of the organisation based on second hand reports that you heard, and repeated to become third hand reports. You don't know what it was like working for the organisation yet you feel you can comment on its safety while chastising those for apparently not working for the railway commenting on its pay structure, I work for a very similar industry. I know the factors that push my pay up. Your evidence is third hand by the time you posted it here.
 

Bromley boy

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So you didn't work for them , yet are commenting on the safety of the organisation based on second hand reports that you heard, and repeated to become third hand reports. You don't know what it was like working for the organisation yet you feel you can comment on its safety while chastising those for apparently not working for the railway commenting on its pay structure, I work for a very similar industry. I know the factors that push my pay up. Your evidence is third hand by the time you posted it here.

:rolleyes:

But I’m someone who actually works on the railway with ex BR drivers. From speaking to them I probably know rather more than you do about the culture under BR.
 

matt_world2004

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:rolleyes:

But I’m someone who actually works on the railway with ex BR drivers. From speaking to them I probably know rather more than you do about the culture under BR.
Funnily enough I work with an ex British rail and privatisation era(2007) driver too,(similar industry) I also work with someone who was ex british army. Both could no longer do their jobs medically(One because of hearing ability and. The other one lost an leg) Both tell their stories with a high degree of nostalgia , wrong word perhaps.I dont think the train driver has ever complained about the stress of his old job whereas the ex army soldier has had time off because of the stress of their old job...
 

The Ham

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But TOCs don't want to pay for this. They would rather employ fewer drivers and allow them to rest day work. This point comes up in the Sundays outside argument that crops up on these forums from time to time. TOCs don't want Sundays to be outside as it ends up requiring them to employ more drivers which costs more.

Thanks for making the argument for nationalisation for me

The lack of training of staff and just poaching staff from other companies isn't just limited to the railways.

It's not uncommon for staff to leave company A for a period of time to work for another company only to return to company A on a much higher salary. (No I can't give you links or evidence, but I know at least one portion who has done it and I know every time I've moved jobs my salary had increased, which again I can't easily prove).

Centralising (or nationalising if you would like) the training of staff has come up as a good suggestion on these threads before. It doesn't mean that it would be better if the whole industry was nationalised. It also doesn't mean that it wouldn't be better.

Unless there's a good reason to change which can be shown to work (i.e. I think that it would be cheaper didn't cut it) then it would be better to carry on with what we have and making small step changes to make it better.

For instance if infrastructure costs are too high due to using contractors then look at creating more in-house teams. If the government could run a TOC better or there's not enough companies bidding to run then then create a company that does so. As if a nationalised organisation is so good then it would win all the franchises without the messy need to nationalise then.

Likewise the government could set up its own ROSCO which could again keep some of the money for the government.

Ask would be small steps that could get us closer to nationalisation (or at least towards the sort of thing that some people think that they want, but would be very different to what others want. I cite the difference between hard and soft Brexit and ask the arguments about that). In doing so it would limit the risk in whole sale change (which could be costly), whilst allowing the nationalised organisation time to grow without having to run everything all at once.

It would also limit the objection from those who have an ideological views that oppose nationalisation.
 

Bromley boy

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Funnily enough I work with an ex British rail and privatisation era(2007) driver too,(similar industry) I also work with someone who was ex british army. Both could no longer do their jobs medically(One because of hearing ability and. The other one lost an leg) Both tell their stories with a high degree of nostalgia , wrong word perhaps.I dont think the train driver has ever complained about the stress of his old job whereas the ex army soldier has had time off because of the stress of their old job...

Another completely irrelevant comparison. All you seem to be doing is trotting out irrelevant examples "x irrelevant job pays less than train driving therefore train driving is overpaid".

Plenty of jobs pay far more than train driving and aren't as stressful as being in the army. Plus stress levels aren't necessarily linked to levels of responsibility.

And in any case your lack of knowledge is once again exposed in the above post. There are many train drivers who've had fatalities and have needed extensive time off work, or even left the job altogether, due to post traumatic stress disorder.
 

Clip

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Good there will be evidence of it then. There was evidence about the attempted coverup by GwR at Hayes & Harlington.

there probably is. but in a box somewhere in an old locked BR office and would not have been copied onto the internet like so many things of old have not been.

Whilst this is mainly an anonymous forum you yourself need to understand that many people on this forum who tell you anecdotes about what used to happen really did happen and stop asking for evidence each and everytime. Youre a rail fan so you really need to grasp this - many things that are now considered bad practice went on and its only through these being discovered that the railway got safer and safer for both staff and passengers alike. Accept that and move on as it seems your are arguing for arguments sake
 

Wivenswold

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What?!

He’s just said he investigated these incidents personally.

Not anecdotes at all.
Bromley boy is right. Not anecdotes, it happened, 4 members of staff were disciplined as a direct result of my investigations. Not proud of that but Matt seems to be ignoring first hand knowledge there.
 

B&I

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To answer some of the points raised in the previous posts.


The salary you are paid reflects the demand for the skills you have in the market. There seems to be a misunderstanding that pay is related to the 'importance' (for some value of 'importance') of the task in society. Although one would wish that some tasks are better paid, social workers, nurses, train cleaners..., the pay scales simply reflect supply and demand. Pay rates do not make a moral judgement.

The benefit for the taxpayer is that better paid people are generally healthier, do not require Social Security support and pay more taxes. Lower pay for railway staff relative to other businesses would reduce the number of people entering the industry and make the present level of train services more difficult to maintain. With fewer staff available the pressures to run more trains with only one crew member on board could well increase and more tasks could become automated. This may not be the outcome you expected or wanted.



I do not understand what is meant by 'neo-liberal' - it seems to come from the same source as 'rabid right wingers' - both are knee-jerk, content free responses.

If you read my post carefully I was not arguing for the status quo. There are clearly issues - but these issues are all to do with the requirements being placed on Network Rail and with its funding yielding outcomes which are not necessarily properly aligned with the interests of the train operators. NR also has the problem of knowing who its customers are. Its customers should be the TOCs, but because much of its funding comes from the DfT which, because it wants to know how the money is being spent, is in closer contact with NR than are the TOCs. The ORR also climbs all over NR to answer questions on 'value for money' and 'efficiencies' and the like.

The perceived problems are largely caused by the mis-alignment of incentives. For example the train operators are loath to permit NR sufficient access to the tracks to perform maintenance, renewals and enhancements - by which NR is judged - because it discourages passengers and inflicts extra costs in replanning stock and crew rosters and train maintenance. 'Twas ever thus, even in the days of BR (although the situation was easier as train frequencies were not so high and the engineers could often have the line to themselves over the weekends. Fatality rates were higher though).

My argument is that, ultimately, ownership per se is not the issue. The issues are all to do with the tasks set for the organisation and the clarity of the objectives. The quality of management at all levels is critical. Private business has a very clear view of its customers; NR is schizophrenic as is inevitable when it is pulled in three different directions at the same time. The problem has been known for 2,000 years "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." The TOCs have a clear view of their customers at the moment - their problem is the degree of control by the DfT in the way they meet the needs of their customers.

Without making any judgement on whether nationalisation is a good thing or a bad thing, one is more likely to achieve a satisfactory solution to all the perceived weaknesses of the service offered to the fare-paying customer by evolving the current set-up rather than having yet another reorganisation imposed from outside.

But the macro-economic arguments about the insidious effects of monopoly and monopsony on both staff and customers are irrefutable. As I wrote earlier - be very careful for what you wish.


Neoliberalism, as I suspect you very well know, is the state ideology according to which this country has been run since 1979. The fundamentalist belief that all aspects of life which can be considered to form part of the economy should be taken out of the public sector and left to the dictates of the so-called free market.

I suspect you know this very well because, although you pretend that your argument is based on a neutral appraisal of what would lead to the most efficient railway system, you undermine this fatally by arguing that control of the railway system should be based over to TOCs on the grounds that they will have the greatest incentive to run a railway providing what passengers want. The TOCs have in general shown little inclination in that regard. They rely on either captive markets (southeastern commuters), customers who can be relied on regardless of the service offered (businesses etc paying for staff travel), colossal subsidy and anti-competitive practices. But why let reality get in the way of your favourite ideology?
 

Railwaysceptic

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What's becoming increasingly obvious about you, and others, is that your tactic for defending this failed privatisation is to imagine the worse possible scenario in the event of renationalisation and present it as an absolute certainty.

I have not defended the privatisation model we have. In post 898 of this thread I wrote "Although I dislike almost everything about the way the railways are run today . . . ."

I have not put forward a scenario for a re-nationalised railway. The most I have done is point out that a Tory Government would not be supportive after a few years; a Labour Government would not be able to finance it after a few years; and that Civil Servants are most unlikely to revert to a "hands-off" approach towards the railway. I have made no suggestions about what form the newly re-nationalised railway would take.

What I have done is question the curious assumptions made by people who support re-nationalisation and to note their inability to argue rationally.

As you seem to view everything as a straight either/or, let me remind you that it is possible to believe that the current arrangement is deeply flawed but also that nationalisation will not tackle the major problems facing the railways and may bring additional problems.
 

The Ham

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As you seem to view everything as a straight either/or, let me remind you that it is possible to believe that the current arrangement is deeply flawed but also that nationalisation will not tackle the major problems facing the railways and may bring additional problems.

My view is also that there could be things done to the current situation that could improve it (maybe more towards nationalisation), as I'm not convinced that full nationalisation would result in an overall benefit (i.e. you could fix one problem only to find another, possibly bigger one).
 

B&I

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My view is also that there could be things done to the current situation that could improve it (maybe more towards nationalisation), as I'm not convinced that full nationalisation would result in an overall benefit (i.e. you could fix one problem only to find another, possibly bigger one).


That's fair enough. I don't think anyone here wants renationalisation for the sake of it (I certainly don't). I think people support ir because they think it brings the best chance of solving the fragmentation of the present industry, and the amount of money siphoned out of it which could go on running services and improving infrastructure. A nationalised system as fragmented as the current set-up would not be much of an improvement, but it needn't be like that.

I suppose a unified privatised railway would have had some of these advantages, but would I suspect still have the major disadvantage of a lot of the high headyins directing rather too much of the gelt into their own salaries, going by the other privatised industries.

Similarly, I recognise the problems if a nationalised railway continued to be micro-managed by the prunes at the DfT to the extent it is. There really would have to be something with the independence of the BRB, perhaps with additional fund raising powers through capacity for taking out loans, or bond issues.

Personally, I'd have no objection to private railways co-existing with a comprehensive nationalised system if this could be arranged efficiently.
 

Railsigns

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What I have done is question the curious assumptions made by people who support re-nationalisation and to note their inability to argue rationally.

Irrational arguments repeatedly put forward by the "privatisation at any price" brigade:

1. Unfounded assertions that nationalisation will somehow make matters worse instead of undoing the damage caused by privatisation.

Did British Rail need taxpayer subsidies of £6 billion a year? - No.
Did British Rail increase the national debt by more than £40 billion? - No.

Since it was privatisation that caused costs to rocket, the natural assumption has to be that a return to public ownership will reverse this situation. Even so, defenders of privatisation insist on dreaming up visions of worst-case scenarios post-nationalisation and presenting them as inevitable outcomes. They have not justified their doomsday visions.

2. Claiming that proponents of public ownership believe nationalisation will solve all the railway's problems. It won't. There will still be delays, failures and strikes, and projects will continue to overrun. The primary benefit will be the savings resulting from ditching the inherently inefficient franchising model and reintegrating the industry - billions of pounds of taxpayers' money could be freed up to be spent on other vital public services instead of swelling the bank accounts of rich company directors and their shareholders, or funding foreign state-owned railways. Quite why the desire to save taxpayers' money is anathema to some people is bewildering to say the least. Is it because of vested interests or are they just toeing a party line?

3. The tiresome line "be careful what you wish for", which aims to give the impression that they hold some unspecified superior knowledge that's eluded the rest of us, as a lame substitute for justifying their position with verifiable facts.
 

Wivenswold

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I say "be careful what you wish for" on the basis that nothing coming from Westminster is ever as it seems, not because I think I have superior knowledge. Though I have more trust in Corbyn than most MPs even though I vehemently disagree with his passive approach to Brexit. I should also admit to being a Green Party member before someone shouts "Trotsky" at me.
 

aylesbury

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There are some extremely interesting comments on this thread but I question how many pro nationalisation people actually experienced BR or worked for a nationalised industry.In 1961 I worked for the Post Office Telephones and the overmanning duplicate paperwork union control was amazing,vehicles were poorly maintained and new ones bought from nationalised car makers all rubbish.We had to fill out a time docket every day and on the bottom was a box to claim bike washing allowance totally irrelavent.Our local train service was not good with dirty slow trains and a timetable that BR told us was not to be changed and the stations were falling to pieces.Then we had the best thing for years Network South East how Chris Green got this through government and BR antagonisim is amazing.Things did improve and then Chiltern came along and we got a fantastic service and trains.I agree that Labour cant afford a new BR and that any government will lose interest quicky they seem to lurch from one crisis to another and don't get much done. Finaly no new BR and stop the DFT encouraging over bidding for franchises plus combined track and train is the way to go then perhaps things will settle down.
 

B&I

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There are some extremely interesting comments on this thread but I question how many pro nationalisation people actually experienced BR or worked for a nationalised industry.In 1961 I worked for the Post Office Telephones and the overmanning duplicate paperwork union control was amazing,vehicles were poorly maintained and new ones bought from nationalised car makers all rubbish.We had to fill out a time docket every day and on the bottom was a box to claim bike washing allowance totally irrelavent.Our local train service was not good with dirty slow trains and a timetable that BR told us was not to be changed and the stations were falling to pieces.Then we had the best thing for years Network South East how Chris Green got this through government and BR antagonisim is amazing.Things did improve and then Chiltern came along and we got a fantastic service and trains.I agree that Labour cant afford a new BR and that any government will lose interest quicky they seem to lurch from one crisis to another and don't get much done. Finaly no new BR and stop the DFT encouraging over bidding for franchises plus combined track and train is the way to go then perhaps things will settle down.


Once more, why would a nationalised railway financed to the same degree as a privatised railway be any worse than the privatised railway?
 

The Ham

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Once more, why would a nationalised railway financed to the same degree as a privatised railway be any worse than the privatised railway?

No one can be sure (although if you talk to people who have worked in both, the ones I've heard aren't in the rail industry, and it didn't take long before you find stories of inefficient practices that wouldn't be tolerated in the private sector).

Can you be sure that a nationalised organisation would be better?

As that's the key point, yes there's problems with the way the trains are run now. However would changing it just result in other problems and mean that overall we were no better or worse off?

I work in highways in the private sector and often companies will not consider employing public sector staff of they have a suitable alternative because they have come across too many incidents of government employees being inefficient when dealing with their projects. That is a now problem and not just something that happened 20-30 years ago. In fact back then council staff tended to be well trained and it was the best route into the industry, since then things have changed and I would suggest the private sector will provide you with a better start and give you better long term prospects.

As I've said before, make little step changes (i.e. a government owned TOC and ROSCO) to fix some of the problems and see how that goes before making wholesale changes.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Once more, why would a nationalised railway financed to the same degree as a privatised railway be any worse than the privatised railway?

Why do you believe a re-nationalised railway would be financed to the same degree as the railways we have at present? I'm quite sure it wouldn't be.

What would happen post re-nationalisation is that for the first two or three years the two main political parties would make a great show of supporting the new organisation, and then gradually - and certainly without any public announcement - withdraw their support. They would of course consistently deny they were withdrawing their support but nevertheless the NHS and education would be given more money and the railways would be given less money.

Why do I believe this? Because that's what happened in the past and political leopards have not changed their spots! Look at how the politicians have changed plans and cancelled projects with the privatised railway. I assure you the Tories will be far more negative with a nationalised railway system and Labour will always give priority to the NHS over railways.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Irrational arguments repeatedly put forward by the "privatisation at any price" brigade:

1. Unfounded assertions that nationalisation will somehow make matters worse instead of undoing the damage caused by privatisation.

Did British Rail need taxpayer subsidies of £6 billion a year? - No.
Did British Rail increase the national debt by more than £40 billion? - No.

Since it was privatisation that caused costs to rocket, the natural assumption has to be that a return to public ownership will reverse this situation. Even so, defenders of privatisation insist on dreaming up visions of worst-case scenarios post-nationalisation and presenting them as inevitable outcomes. They have not justified their doomsday visions.

2. Claiming that proponents of public ownership believe nationalisation will solve all the railway's problems. It won't. There will still be delays, failures and strikes, and projects will continue to overrun. The primary benefit will be the savings resulting from ditching the inherently inefficient franchising model and reintegrating the industry - billions of pounds of taxpayers' money could be freed up to be spent on other vital public services instead of swelling the bank accounts of rich company directors and their shareholders, or funding foreign state-owned railways. Quite why the desire to save taxpayers' money is anathema to some people is bewildering to say the least. Is it because of vested interests or are they just toeing a party line?

3. The tiresome line "be careful what you wish for", which aims to give the impression that they hold some unspecified superior knowledge that's eluded the rest of us, as a lame substitute for justifying their position with verifiable facts.

Another feverish, irrational post, this time with a large measure of obfuscation thrown in.
 

Railsigns

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Why do you believe a re-nationalised railway would be financed to the same degree as the railways we have at present? I'm quite sure it wouldn't be.

There you go again: Imagining the worst-case scenario and presenting it as inevitable. The railways depend on government funding irrespective of who owns them. That's no reason not to move to a more efficient public ownership model; in fact it's another good reason in favour of doing so.

Why do you assume that funding will remain at the present level indefinitely if the railways aren't renationalised? Ownership and funding are two separate matters.
 
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