Rail replacement aeroplane?

[RJ]

Even if money is no object there is a limit to what they can do. Trust me, I've had to transfer my bag from one portion to the other at Edinburgh when bridge scour cut off my destination and the promised coaches failed to materialise (what did they expect at 3am?)

If the money is right there will be an operator who will make it work. We’re in a cost of living crisis and there are people who will work at short notice if offered the right incentive. It might take a while for the coach to get there but it will appear.

If bus operators are asked to cover a run for no profit or less than the cost of doing the job even, that’s when the struggle to find anybody at all will start. This is especially the case if it’s a long distance run at an average of 55mph, in some parts of the UK it’s a guaranteed loss maker to cover the work.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I did wonder about a Rail Replacement Salters’ Steamer when Nuneham Viaduct was out of action. Might have had difficulty keeping to time though…

 

[185]

We did end up on Virgin Australia 18 months ago after a biblical* freight derailment at Geelong blocked the Adelaide line for several weeks, although we organised it ourselves.

*It really was... like a huge pyramid of derailed containers.

 

[Krokodil]

If the money is right there will be an operator who will make it work. We’re in a cost of living crisis and there are people who will work at short notice if offered the right incentive.

We've got a shortage of PSV drivers. If all of your drivers were working that day, or will be working the next morning then you just can't use them. You don't want to piss off existing bookings. This is why you can't get coaches at very short notice while they're doing the school run, all drivers are already committed.

 

[Oldgaloot]

A little bit off the topic but since I'm now in my anecdotage.....

In 1981 my nephew was over from Chicago to see his maternal grandparents. His trip had to be cut short at the time when US air traffic controllers were taking industrial action and being led away from their desks in handcuffs. My sister knew some well connected people in Chicago and asked me to take the lad out to Heathrow and speak to someone from TWA whose name I've long ago forgotten mentioning another name from TWA in Chicago. While I waited for the Heathrow bloke to appear at the check in desk I could hear people offering to buy first class tickets to anywhere in the US and having no success.

When the chap arrived I told my story mentioning the magic name. He took the ticket from me, scrawled in it and gave it back. He'd written "must ride" and signed his name. The nephew checked in and I waved him goodbye.

 

[Krokodil]

When the chap arrived I told my story mentioning the magic name. He took the ticket from me, scrawled in it and gave it back. He'd written "must ride" and signed his name. The nephew checked in and I waved him goodbye.

I met a chap who did an exchange trip to East Germany. He stayed with someone senior in the Stasi. On moving onto the next placement he was told "if you need anything, call me". A couple of weeks later his father was ill and he needed to go home. The official responsible for the exit visa was very obstructive. One phone call and suddenly the bureaucrat couldn't have been more helpful!

 

[Class15]

It has happened abroad - in Switzerland (of course) last year. A little mountain railway was out of action for a couple of weeks for planned maintenance, and it was the only reasonable link to a small village. So a helicopter ran a shuttle service (daylight and weather permitting) for a fortnight at the standard railway ticket price. Tourists in the area who had tickets valid on the out-of-action line could use the helicopter too, but locals - such as kids going to school - had precedence! The village was Braunwald high above the town of Linthal (some way south-east of Zurich).

Was this the one that Tim Traveller was talking about?

 

[Mountain Man]

A coach operator would 100% cover it for the right price! A price based on paying wages for two drivers, the mileage there and back and reflecting the short notice.

If the rate is intended to pay less than the cost of the wages and fuel and nothing for overheads or short notice reward then that would be a scenario where no coach operator would be likely to be interested, but I think this would be wholly inapplicable on this part of the network!

No they wouldn't.

You regularly get occasions when coach travel replacement is unavailable. Money can't make drivers or coaches appear that aren't there. Especially last minute

 

[AndrewE]

Not sure if it's possible in the opposite direction, but BA can and will book passengers onto LNER services north if there is disruption at Heathrow.

I have experienced that (as a bona fide first class rail passenger...) I think it was during some sort of rail disruption, maybe bad weather, and suddenly the train was deluged with would-be BA passengers with free first class tickets. Cue much criticism of the railway for not having arranged more capacity or even an empty train waiting for them!

I thought it was a very clever way of BA getting the Brownie points and BR coming out of it looking bad - and maybe putting the airline's passengers off rail travel in future too.
edit/p.s. thinking back, I might have been in second class back then, and witnessed the disgruntled overflow coming through looking for seats in with the plebs...

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Big Four of course had their own airline (in consortium with Imperial Airways) - Railway Air Services - from 1934-47. The principal route was Croydon - Birmingham - Manchester - Belfast - Glasgow. I wonder if any VIP was 'upgraded' to air in preference to the train?

 

[Mainline421]

I've heard it happened once in the latter days of through tickets to Channel Islands. Allegedly there was a massive delay on a (Virgin/BR) cross country service to Poole so passengers with such tickets were put on a flight from Birmingham International.

 

[Starmill]

We've got a shortage of PSV drivers. If all of your drivers were working that day, or will be working the next morning then you just can't use them. You don't want to piss off existing bookings. This is why you can't get coaches at very short notice while they're doing the school run, all drivers are already committed.

It's all in the way you approach it. London to Edinburgh round trip should be achievable in a double shift of 8ish hours, with either two drivers or a hotel. So for last-minute hire on that kind of shift you'd expect to start from around £1k, maybe a little bit more for vehicles with higher specs, maybe you could go a bit less for a small vehicle rather than a full size coach. So if you added £250 costs for the hotel and meals on the road then put it out saying the client would consider offers you would either get someone who'd bite at £2.25k or maybe someone who'd phone up and offer to cover it for £2.75k or something like that. Obviously this falls apart rapidly if you want some kind of squadron service rather than just one coach but that's the gist. If you tried to get someone to cover it for £1k you'd probably just get laughed at, or the phone politely hung up very quickly.

No they wouldn't.

You regularly get occasions when coach travel replacement is unavailable. Money can't make drivers or coaches appear that aren't there. Especially last minute

The issue with this is that some TOCs serially underpay through their road transport provider. It's funny how Stagecoach can almost always offer LNER good availability for example, even short notice availability. I'm not saying every single time. And obviously if you want a coach to pick up from Aviemore, Kingussie and Pitlochry to go to Edinburgh, that's a very different prospect indeed, given the number of local coach companies, than having one from say Newcastle to go to Edinburgh. But at the end of the day it's not magic though, it's money.

 

[Krokodil]

It's all in the way you approach it. London to Edinburgh round trip should be achievable in a double shift of 8ish hours, with either two drivers or a hotel. So for last-minute hire on that kind of shift you'd expect to start from around £1k, maybe a little bit more for vehicles with higher specs, maybe you could go a bit less for a small vehicle rather than a full size coach. So if you added £250 costs for the hotel and meals on the road then put it out saying the client would consider offers you would either get someone who'd bite at £2.25k or maybe someone who'd phone up and offer to cover it for £2.75k or something like that. Obviously this falls apart rapidly if you want some kind of squadron service rather than just one coach but that's the gist. If you tried to get someone to cover it for £1k you'd probably just get laughed at, or the phone politely hung up very quickly.

In this case it was Edinburgh-Fort William (and I suppose the passengers waiting to leave Fort Bill must've needed a ride too). We were told when boarding the sleeper that they were going to be roading us from Edinburgh at silly o'clock. Then when we got there and got up with our luggage we were told that they couldn't find coaches and to move to the Inverness portion, road transport would run from there instead (I can't remember if we all fitted in one coach or if there were more).

On the plus side that sleeper ticket was reimbursed (as was the southbound ticket because we were more than 2 hours late due to a fatality disrupting the Aberdeen portion) and WCRC found me space on the afternoon Jacobite (the morning one left an hour before we arrived on the bus).

 

[Mountain Man]

The issue with this is that some TOCs serially underpay through their road transport provider. It's funny how Stagecoach can almost always offer LNER good availability for example, even short notice availability. I'm not saying every single time. And obviously if you want a coach to pick up from Aviemore, Kingussie and Pitlochry to go to Edinburgh, that's a very different prospect indeed, given the number of local coach companies, than having one from say Newcastle to go to Edinburgh. But at the end of the day it's not magic though, it's money.

The issue is practical availability not money.

There are simply not large amounts of capacity at short notice in the vast majority of the country.

 

[Starmill]

The issue is practical availability not money.

There are simply not large amounts of capacity at short notice in the vast majority of the country.

If you want a coach to pick up at Elgin, Pwllheli, or Saxmundham then yes of course. But most times coaches are requested to places like Edinburgh, Newport and Leeds. The reality is that the TOCs who are sensible get coaches when they request them to these sort of locations.

In this case it was Edinburgh-Fort William (and I suppose the passengers waiting to leave Fort Bill must've needed a ride too). We were told when boarding the sleeper that they were going to be roading us from Edinburgh at silly o'clock. Then when we got there and got up with our luggage we were told that they couldn't find coaches and to move to the Inverness portion, road transport would run from there instead (I can't remember if we all fitted in one coach or if there were more).

On the plus side that sleeper ticket was reimbursed (as was the southbound ticket because we were more than 2 hours late due to a fatality disrupting the Aberdeen portion) and WCRC found me space on the afternoon Jacobite (the morning one left an hour before we arrived on the bus).

I have to say I would have been incredibly reluctant to board the train knowing that, as it would for me all but guarantee hardly any sleep at all, maybe just a few hours anxiously thinking about being woken up at a ridiculous hour. Accordingly for me the following day would have been ruined, I'd be so tired I'd find it impossible to enjoy anything, so I'd strongly prefer to stay in a hotel at the origin in such circumstances. I wonder if that was offered to those who pushed for it! Sounds like an all round serious failure of contingency planning frankly so I'm really not that surprised someone thought they were able to secure a bus and actually weren't.

 

[Mountain Man]

If you want a coach to pick up at Elgin, Pwllheli, or Saxmundham then yes of course. But most times coaches are requested to places like Edinburgh, Newport and Leeds. The reality is that the TOCs who are sensible get coaches when they request them to these sort of locations.

Trains service the stations on the network, no just big towns and cities. So replacement coaches need to service those too.

It's not good saying we have a rail replacement coach leaving from Carlisle for a passenger from Maryport

 

[RT4038]

The issue is practical availability not money.

There are simply not large amounts of capacity at short notice in the vast majority of the country.

I would suggest that it is a bit of both.

 

[Starmill]

Trains service the stations on the network, no just big towns and cities. So replacement coaches need to service those too.

It's not good saying we have a rail replacement coach leaving from Carlisle for a passenger from Maryport

It is if one driver shift can make the round trip. It's commonly done to try to arrange them to work both ways. Carlisle to Maryport would easily be covered by a Carlisle-based operator within one driving shift, even stopping at every station. It's obviously a lot less efficient if you need to use the bus only in one direction, either dead from depot to Maryport in this case, or the other way around, dead from Maryport back to depot, as you'll in effect be paying for the dead mileage same as the passenger mileage. But it's achieved on the regular to get something out. Outside of situations where there's severe weather and roads are a lot more difficult than usual, or a situation where say an isolated town only has one coach company at it and they've declined flat out to work rail replacement because of a management decision (e.g. if there's a dispute about late or unpaid invoices for previous work) it's rare there'd simply be nothing at all. Sure it likely won't be efficiently done, it won't be cheap. But in reality same-day calls are pretty much never those things because there needs to be some kind of reward for the operator to attend without notice, and in respect of any costs like meals and accommodation that may need to be covered for the driver.

 

[RJ]

No they wouldn't.

You regularly get occasions when coach travel replacement is unavailable. Money can't make drivers or coaches appear that aren't there. Especially last minute

Every operator does things differently.

Some won’t have availability but others will answer the phone 24/7 and ring every driver who might be available if they know for a fact it’s a viable commercial opportunity. I know of operators that can conjure up several buses at almost no notice and they will do that for certain TOCs with no questions asked. They won’t even enquire what the price is because they don’t need to. Some of them will even be ringing speculatively as soon as they hear there is something has kicked off.

I know of operators who have PCV licence wielding staff who don’t really have any scheduled driving jobs. They might be helping with presentation or admin or just on call, but their reason for being there is immediate response to emergency rail replacement calls.

The same operators won’t answer the phone elsewhere because they’ll be asked to work at a loss and told it’s non-negotiable.

 

[Starmill]

I know of operators who have PCV licence wielding staff who don’t really have any scheduled driving jobs. They might be helping with presentation or admin or just on call, but their reason for being there is immediate response to emergency rail replacement calls.

Indeed. Or even whole small businesses with PCV qualified directors and a compliant second-hand fleet who simply pick up rail replacement as and when, and they can bring enough in without needing any payrolled dedicated drivers.

 

[Krokodil]

If you want a coach to pick up at Elgin, Pwllheli, or Saxmundham then yes of course. But most times coaches are requested to places like Edinburgh, Newport and Leeds. The reality is that the TOCs who are sensible get coaches when they request them to these sort of locations.


I have to say I would have been incredibly reluctant to board the train knowing that, as it would for me all but guarantee hardly any sleep at all, maybe just a few hours anxiously thinking about being woken up at a ridiculous hour. Accordingly for me the following day would have been ruined, I'd be so tired I'd find it impossible to enjoy anything, so I'd strongly prefer to stay in a hotel at the origin in such circumstances. I wonder if that was offered to those who pushed for it! Sounds like an all round serious failure of contingency planning frankly so I'm really not that surprised someone thought they were able to secure a bus and actually weren't.

Yeah, you can't sleep if you know that you'll be up in just a few hours (the furnishings in those Mk3s was wearing thin too). If all had gone to plan though, at least I'd have made Ft Bill in time for the morning Jacobite. Opting for a hotel in Crewe and daytime trains north wouldn't really have worked for me, I'd have lost the day.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I did wonder about a Rail Replacement Salters’ Steamer when Nuneham Viaduct was out of action. Might have had difficulty keeping to time though…

Salters would have been a squeeze, Thames Rivercruise would have probably bitten NR's hands off...

 

[Sun Chariot]

Salters would have been a squeeze, Thames Rivercruise would have probably bitten NR's hands off...

Or take the rail replacement in style...

 

[AndrewE]

Or take the rail replacement in style...

I was surprised to see an old advert claiming that the Liverpool and N Wales (Steamship Company?) ran paddle steamers daily between Liverpool and Llandudno in 2 hours! Modern trains take about 2 hr 30 or so! (station to station.)
Waverley is scheduled to take 3 1/4 this summer - see https://waverleyexcursions.co.uk/wp.../02/North-Wales-The-Mersey-2024-Timetable.pdf - Note it includes a departure from Holyhead too!

 

[Krokodil]

Modern trains take about 2 hr 30 or so! (station to station.)

The trains don't take that long. Its waiting for a connection that takes time. It's not 2hr 30 anyway, most are closer to 2hrs (including at least a 10 minute connection, something that won't be a problem when the direct service finally starts). Not only have the trains stopped in 23 places along the way but Chester isn't exactly on the way between Liverpool and Llandudno, it's quite a dog leg. Sea traffic on the other hand can pretty much go as the crow flies once they've left the Mersey

 

[AndrewE]

The trains don't take that long. Its waiting for a connection that takes time. It's not 2hr 30 anyway, most are closer to 2hrs (including at least a 10 minute connection, something that won't be a problem when the direct service finally starts). Not only have the trains stopped in 23 places along the way but Chester isn't exactly on the way between Liverpool and Llandudno, it's quite a dog leg. Sea traffic on the other hand can pretty much go as the crow flies once they've left the Mersey

you are almost right, I did a search for a mid-morning journey on a random weekday in May (on Traveline) and most seemed to be about 2 hr 30. Actually a different search shows one an hour takes 2 hr 04, the other takes 2 hr 26. Not so different to 2 1/2 hr then.

 

[randyrippley]

If anyone has a spare SRN6 at the moment there's a demand for a Rail Replacement Hovercraft between Arnside and Grange-over-Sands

Failing that is Waverley free to run between Heysham and Barrow?

 

[AlastairFraser]

If anyone has a spare SRN6 at the moment there's a demand for a Rail Replacement Hovercraft between Arnside and Grange-over-Sands

Failing that is Waverley free to run between Heysham and Barrow?

I always have wondered why there isn't at least a seasonal car ferry from Rampside near Barrow and Heysham, I know Morecambe Bay tides would heavily restrict it, but I feel it could be faster than the road journey all the way round on the A590 for those visiting Furness.

 

[randyrippley]

I always have wondered why there isn't at least a seasonal car ferry from Rampside near Barrow and Heysham, I know Morecambe Bay tides would heavily restrict it, but I feel it could be faster than the road journey all the way round on the A590 for those visiting Furness.

One of the spare Western Ferries boats from Dunoon would fit the bill quite well

 

[Mountain Man]

I always have wondered why there isn't at least a seasonal car ferry from Rampside near Barrow and Heysham, I know Morecambe Bay tides would heavily restrict it, but I feel it could be faster than the road journey all the way round on the A590 for those visiting Furness.

Either invest significantly and have a robust solution, or don't. A ferry would be the worst option, visual enough for politicians to claim they are doing something, but not enough to actually sort the issue