Rail & Sail IOM rail routings to Heysham / Liverpool

[Skymonster]

Another quick question reference Rail & Sail to Douglas, Isle of Man.

I’m getting closer to my trip, and starting to think more about how I’m getting from Derby to Heysham Port on the way out, and from Liverpool to Derby on the return. Frustratingly [of course, because when it comes to non-standard rail travel things are rarely quite as simple as one might imagine] Douglas IOM isn’t in the National Rail Routing Guide, so I can’t use the time-honoured practice of Routing, Routing Points and Maps etc to assess which ways I can travel by rail using Douglas as a start/end point. NRE is equally not as helpful as it could be as, it steadfastly refuses to show any IOM itineraries via Liverpool.

So, is it safe for me to assume that a return Rail & Sail ticket from Derby to Douglas (via Heysham / Liverpool) is valid on any route that a rail-only ticket from Derby to Heysham / Derby to Liverpool is valid for? That is, from Derby to Heysham I could go via Crewe/Lancaster, Sheffield/Manchester/Lancaster or Leeds/Lancaster. And from Liverpool to Derby I could travel from Lime Street via Sheffield or from James Street via Chester (Merseyrail) and Crewe?

Reason I ask is there is a logical way of doing this, but I get nervous about the reliability of certain TOCs and am therefore keen to establish what options are available should a “short notice change to the timetable“ arise.

Many thanks…

 

[30907]

There is no specified routing, so you could certainly use those routes (and possibly others!). Be aware that the Heysham train is the one most likely to cause problems, particularly on a Sunday.

 

[Confused52]

Sorry this is a long post, the two questions are at the end. I have done some research and present it to arrive at the questions. I hope you can help.

I had a fancy to go to Douglas, IOM. I wanted to go from my local station using a rail-sail ticket, Warrington West (WAW).
The National rail site can find journeys via Heysham and Liverpool depending on day and time from Warrington Central, and Widnes, both finding the same Fare. However if I ask for WAW I get:

We’re having some issues, but we’re working hard to get you back on track

Please come back later.

On the Loco2.com site, recommended by IOM Steam Packet on their web site for the same query ( The data for which worked on national rail when the Origin was not WAW), I get:

Sorry, we didn't find any result for this journey

Sorry, our train operators didn't return any result for this journey.



There are several possible reasons:

Trains may not depart at the requested time: try changing your departure time.

You may have selected a date too far in the future: try changing your departure date

If your journey involves lots of changes: try adding a via station or split your search.

You may need to try a different station: select "any station" if it is available.


So looking at BR Fares From Widnes and Warrington Central I get comparable data but for Warrington West I get “No Fare Available”.

From BR Fares I see that the Flow Destination is H227 – Douglas, IOM and for working adjacent stations and the Flow Origin is Cluster Q795. The Flow Origin has 7 County codes of which CC06 Cheshire is relevant. BR fares helpfully lists the Station Descriptions in CC06 and their NLCs Warrington West is missing. That is the cause of no fares I suspect.

Looking at today’s version of the Fares data from RDG:

Locations File - Latest Entries only

Rec HDR

UIC

END

START

QUOTE

ADMIN_AREA

NLC

DESC

CRS

RESV CODE

ERS_COUNTRY

ERS_CODE

FARE_GROUP

COUNTY

RL

7065830​

31122999​

8052024​

3122019​

70​

6583​

WARRINGTON WEST

WAW

65830​

6583​

0​

RL

7023880​

31122999​

8052024​

25092017​

70​

2388​

SANKEY

SNK

0​

2388​

6​

Comparing the entries for Warrington West and Sankey I see that the County Code is 00 for WAW, which is an invalid value. For Sankey it is set correctly at 06. Note that the 06 is changed into a Flow Origin of CC06 for use in the data by some undocumented magic.

Warrington West only opened in 2019 so it looks like the County field was ignored as unused thereby causing the problem I found.

From this flow two questions:



1: How do I get this apparent data error fixed?

2: In the absence of a fix what ticket do I actually buy, I cannot excess one from adjacent stations – which have no difference in fare- because no one can look up the fare from WAW to know there is no difference.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I thought these tickets had been suspended from quite a number of channels / were unavailable due to issues with the lack of integration with the ferry reservation system. I believe a customer encountered an unusual situation requiring a new ferry ticket to be purchased owing to a lack of reservation.

I'm not sure you'll have much luck buying a through fare from any station at the moment.

If you can find a ticket office able and willing to issue, nobody is going to care if you actually travel from Warrington West with a ticket from Warrington Stns etc. However, you must make sure that the ticket office telephone the ferry company and don't just issue the ticket.

Just looking at Loco2 (now Rail Europe) - make sure you follow their instructions:

How to get to the Isle of Man with Rail / Sail tickets - Rail Europe Help

This article explains how to get to the Isle of Man. The train and ferry combination to the Isle of Man is called a Rail & Sail fare. This fare allows you to tr

help.raileurope.com

However, just use Warrington Bank Quay or some other nearby station and you'll be fine.

How to get to the Isle of Man with Rail / Sail tickets
This article explains how to get to the Isle of Man. The train and ferry combination to the Isle of Man is called a Rail & Sail fare. This fare allows you to travel from any UK station to Douglas (Isle of Man), or from Douglas to the UK. The tickets we sell are for a combined train journey in the UK and a ferry crossing. Please note you'll need to book a free reservation for the ferry separately.

How to book tickets to the Isle of Man
Enter "Douglas Isle of Man" as your destination to book tickets (one-way or return) from the UK to the Isle of Man, via Heysham or Liverpool.

Please remember to book your free ferry reservation separately.
How to book tickets from the Isle of Man
It's not currently possible to book tickets (one-way or return) from the Isle of Man to the UK because there are no National Rail ticket collection facilities on the Isle.
To book a Rail & Sail trip from the Isle of Man via Heysham or Liverpool, please visit the Steam Packet ferries booking office at the Ferry Travel Shop in the Sea Terminal, Douglas. More information is available from the Steam Packet website.

How to book the ferry
You can make a reservation for the ferry free of charge by contacting the Steam Packet reservations team at [email protected] or 01624 661661. They will issue you with your ferry reservation, subject to availability.

We strongly recommend that you check for space on the ferry with the Steam Packet reservations team before you proceed through checkout. It may be possible to book a ferry reservation on the day. But, we do not recommend this. Ferries often sell-out during spring/summer, the TT race and the Festival of Motorcycling in late August.

© Rail Europe 2024. Powered by Help Scout

 

[MrJeeves]

However, you must make sure that the ticket office telephone the ferry company and don't just issue the ticket.

Alternatively, poster themselves can do it.

 

[lfc84]

The TOC TFW is usually able to find fares but in this instance WAW isn't coming up. The fares are based on zones so the other Warrington stations would be ok.

You could book using the TFW app or website. You can select open return if you want to make the reservation slightly quicker online or in the app.

You can just turn up at the port and show your train & ferry ticket as there's almost always spaces available outside of June peak.

Alternatively, once you've got your train ticket you can call or email to make the ferry reservation.

 

[Confused52]

I thought these tickets had been suspended from quite a number of channels / were unavailable due to issues with the lack of integration with the ferry reservation system. I believe a customer encountered an unusual situation requiring a new ferry ticket to be purchased owing to a lack of reservation.

I'm not sure you'll have much luck buying a through fare from any station at the moment.

If you can find a ticket office able and willing to issue, nobody is going to care if you actually travel from Warrington West with a ticket from Warrington Stns etc. However, you must make sure that the ticket office telephone the ferry company and don't just issue the ticket.

Just looking at Loco2 (now Rail Europe) - make sure you follow their instructions:

How to get to the Isle of Man with Rail / Sail tickets - Rail Europe Help

This article explains how to get to the Isle of Man. The train and ferry combination to the Isle of Man is called a Rail & Sail fare. This fare allows you to tr

help.raileurope.com

However, just use Warrington Bank Quay or some other nearby station and you'll be fine.

The instructions are OK. I spoke to the Steam packet co earlier on in the year when things weren't working and he confirmed it was because the railway bookings system was not releasing seats for the rail-sail. However they do now work as far as booking and I do know to contact steam packet myself. I will phone to do that and then book the ticket whilst talking to them as without a guarantee of space for a foot passenger on the ferry it can cost in cancellation fees. It may mean two phone calls but that can be sorted. The actual data problem is another matter. A Warrington Stations ticket isn't valid because Warrington West is not in that Routing Group. With respect to the onboard/station staff I don't want to put them in an awkward spot discussing it while the barrier if arriving via Bank Quay or on the very short journey from WAC to WAW.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The instructions are OK. I spoke to the Steam packet co earlier on in the year when things weren't working and he confirmed it was because the railway bookings system was not releasing seats for the rail-sail. However they do now work as far as booking and I do know to contact steam packet myself. I will phone to do that and then book the ticket whilst talking to them as without a guarantee of space for a foot passenger on the ferry it can cost in cancellation fees. It may mean two phone calls but that can be sorted. The actual data problem is another matter. A Warrington Stations ticket isn't valid because Warrington West is not in that Routing Group. With respect to the onboard/station staff I don't want to put them in an awkward spot discussing it while the barrier if arriving via Bank Quay or on the very short journey from WAC to WAW.

A ticket from Liverpool, Liverpool South Parkway etc is probably valid at Warrington West - same with a ticket from Hough Green, Widnes etc - assuming you're travelling Warrington-Preston-Lancaster-Heysham.

Again, nobody will care less if you buy a ticket from Warrington Stns and use it from Warrington West for a journey like this. It's not officially valid, but you're worrying unnecessarily about this.

Break of Journey is technically barred on the outward leg, but as long as you're not using it to undercut a rail fare (and you genuinely are using the ferry) - again, nobody will care (or probably even know). If you're buying a single, there's no restriction.

If you're so worried, buy it from Widnes.

 

[lfc84]

The stations are zoned. So routing groups doesn't matter

 

[Haywain]

You can just turn up at the port and show your train & ferry ticket as there's almost always spaces available

I’d be wary of that. On occasion the Heysham route gets blocked to foot passengers and it’s better to know in advance.

 

[lfc84]

I’d be wary of that. On occasion the Heysham route gets blocked to foot passengers and it’s better to know in advance.

They keep about 10 spaces back specifically for walk up sail and rail passengers. It's extremely rare that Manxman is full for foot passengers. It holds almost 1,000 people

 

[Haywain]

They keep about 10 spaces back specifically for walk up sail and rail passengers. It's extremely rare that Manxman is full for foot passengers. It holds almost 1,000 people

It’s also unusual that they don’t carry foot passengers at all but it does happen occasionally.

 

[Adam Williams]

I’d be wary of that. On occasion the Heysham route gets blocked to foot passengers and it’s better to know in advance.

I'd also be wary of this, as I've seen customers be incorrectly charged in full again when they did not hold a reservation

 

[Confused52]

I know that the cause is the lack of County Code in the Fares data Location File because if I look for active CRS codes where the County Code is zero they all exhibit the same no fare response. Example are Reading West, Worcestershire Parkway and Lea Green in addition to Warrington West. this suggests a systematic error over years which is continuing still.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I know that the cause is the lack of County Code in the Fares data Location File because if I look for active CRS codes where the County Code is zero they all exhibit the same no fare response. Example are Reading West, Worcestershire Parkway and Lea Green in addition to Warrington West. this suggests a systematic error over years which is continuing still.

You're correct that it's the cause, and it's because the latest form used to create a new location doesn't ask for this, so the supplier doesn't set it up.

If you're wanting to be proactive, contact [email protected] but you will need to spell it out very clearly what you want to happen, what the issue is, and why RDG need to lead on this, otherwise they'll just palm you off to the TOC responsible for the station record and it will never be fixed.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

I had a week long holiday in the Isle of Man in July using sail rail. I travelled from Burton on Trent via Heysham. I purchased the ticket from Burton Ticket office the day before. The itinerary suggested was via Birmingham using the 10:07 Avanti service to Lancaster. I phoned the Isle Man Steam Packet to reserve my place on the boat.
The only problem was that phoning the Isle of Man was treated as an international call and was not included in my inclusive minutes so the call cost £10!
On the way back you can reserve on the boat at the Steam Packet Terminal in Douglas by showing your rail sail ticket.
The Heysham service has a new boat that is very good.

 

[lfc84]

01624 661661 or 08722 992 992

 

[randyrippley]

Just to reiterate something that was said earlier - weekends are a problem on the Heysham line.
Sundays at the moment are nearly always RRB's, while Saturdays are very hit and miss with short notice cancellations - and no RRB available.
There's no bus service to the harbour so be prepared to call a taxi.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's no bus service to the harbour so be prepared to call a taxi.

The Stagecoach 2X from Lancaster is a good alternative option, it goes past the college then fast along the Bay Gateway road to Heysham village. Get off at Combermere Road and it's about a 10 minute walk from there to the ferry terminal.

It never used to, but it now look like the 2X runs on Sunday daytimes too.

If Northern cancel the train they will normally put an RRB on, even the short notice cancellations, but you can be waiting a while and they often don't update JourneyCheck with the details. I often walk for the 2X anyway, after four hours on the Manxman it's nice to stretch one's legs.

 

[Confused52]

I contacted a pricing person at GWR and they changed the Location data from zero for the affected live GWR stations and one can now book tickets to DGS from MBT, RGP, and WOP.

 

[Haywain]

from MBT, RGP, and WOP.

Which are...?

 

[Confused52]

Which are...?

MBT - Marsh Barton
RGP - Reading Green Park
WOP - Worcestershire Parkway

DGS - Douglas IOM Ferry Terminal

The data is updated on BR Fares and National Rail Enquiries but Loco2.com, recommended by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Co, still has not updated its data. It is a periodic data feed and the full download from the RDG is still using the data from last Tuesday but the data was changed on Thursday.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I contacted a pricing person at GWR and they changed the Location data from zero for the affected live GWR stations and one can now book tickets to DGS from MBT, RGP, and WOP.

As an aside, Chiltern have done the same for Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Oxford Parkway and Warwick Parkway.

 

[Confused52]

As an aside, Chiltern have done the same for Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Oxford Parkway and Warwick Parkway.

Sounds like thanks to GWR for passing the information on. I wonder if Northern will wake up?

 

[73128]

I'd also be wary of this, as I've seen customers be incorrectly charged in full again when they did not hold a reservation

You need to book in advance - so (call or email) IOM Ferries yourself, they will want your ticket number. Before buying the ticket check on line that foot passenger tickets are available. Note that RailSail is also valid (same price) via Liverpool - here again you need to reserve.

The Stagecoach 2X from Lancaster is a good alternative option, it goes past the college then fast along the Bay Gateway road to Heysham village. Get off at Combermere Road and it's about a 10 minute walk from there to the ferry terminal.

It never used to, but it now look like the 2X runs on Sunday daytimes too.

If Northern cancel the train they will normally put an RRB on, even the short notice cancellations, but you can be waiting a while and they often don't update JourneyCheck with the details. I often walk for the 2X anyway, after four hours on the Manxman it's nice to stretch one's legs.

i'm aware of the bus (and had downloaded its timings and a map) but never had to use it as a train or RRB has run.