Rail strikes discussion

[Sorcerer]

In light of Merseyrail's recent 7.1% pay rise agreement, will this finally mean that their new trains will be entering service in the foreseeable future? Also does anyone else think that such an agreement will actually set a precedent for the outcomes of the wider strike action on the rest of the network or will it be a bit more complicated than that? After all a 7.1% increase in the Merseyside area won't be quite as hard hit as someone living within the Greater London housing market.

 

[CFRAIL]

I suspect one of the reasons we've not gone with RDW bans etc... in terms of strike action here is because our limited timetables means there's a fair few SP turns each day so it would have minimal impact on us.

 

[Shrop]

Being caught in cover-up is always worse than the event. I've yet to see an example to the contrary! People just can't stand dishonesty.

A great many people despise the dishonesty that Boris has exhibited in the last couple of years, but what can we do about it? Since he started misleading the public and Parliament many months ago, we seem to have no more power to remove him from office than do those countries living under a dictatorship. Not until the next GE anyway.

Hence why the Teflon PM is now in trouble.

Yes, I thought he was in trouble a few months ago. And on many occasions since then, serious trouble too, and yet there he is still in power, scoffing at everyone who questions him, getting away with changing the subject every time a difficult question is asked, as do all of his cohorts.

Whatever anyone's views about this present rail strike, if Boris has half as much success in his quest to pour scorn on it, as he's had with other things that he's had no business getting away with, then it would be hard to bet against his outrageous ability to hoodwink society and get away with it.

 

[alxndr]

I can understand your comments and concerns but if a resource pool is available then you ask and get the right person for the job but they're all available to help as required.
Some depts really struggle for staff whist others have spare resources. That's nonsense .
You can also make far better use of the senior people by not using them for mundane tasks.

You don't know what resources you require until you are called to a fault, so do you keep a pool of people sat around doing not much waiting to be needed? Is that efficient or effective? Would we be better allocating three people where there is a likelihood of being called to attend a failure (e.g. faulting teams)?

Base teams of two could work for maintenance/capex only shifts with additional resources brought in where required by the task (as long as those people are adequately trained to be of use for their intended purpose and using those competencies frequently enough not to be suffering from skill fade). The risk is though that those resources wouldn't be allocated because it's cheaper and easier not to. It's already not uncommon in some places to have people willing and able to come in to boost a team back up to three people and be refused because overtime is costly. I can only imagine that would get worse in a system where they had to actively put requests in weeks in advance.

Maintenance only shifts could probably be run with people of good technician level, but I think that is looking at it backwards. We should be trying to bring more people up to a senior experienced level rather than trying to stretch the ones that we do have further. Every department I've seen has lost a wealth of experience in the last few years and we need to remedy that.

NR - offer is 2% plus 2 payments of 0.5% of salary this year, changes to T&Cs
- ~2500 compulsory redundancies
- increase weeks on nights (28-39)
- reduce night shift pay from 1.25x to 1.10x rate
- reduce weekend shift pay from 1.50x to 1.10x rate
- no mention of new tech in moderation so far
Also talk of fire and rehire for mobile operatives, onto self employed contracts requiring own vans, no guarantee on fuel allowance.

Worth noting that there are so many different contracts in NR that a lot of people aren't on the current rates/terms quoted here.

 

[jamesst]

In light of Merseyrail's recent 7.1% pay rise agreement, will this finally mean that their new trains will be entering service in the foreseeable future? Also does anyone else think that such an agreement will actually set a precedent for the outcomes of the wider strike action on the rest of the network or will it be a bit more complicated than that? After all a 7.1% increase in the Merseyside area won't be quite as hard hit as someone living within the Greater London housing market.

That was with tssa who are mainly backroom staff/management.
Guards are rmt, the dispute involving them- which has nothing to do with the current strikes- has yet to be settled.
Drivers are aslef. Again whilst they have recently had a pay award there has yet to be any discussion with them over training and t&Cs regarding the new stock .

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So if you are using all this tech, why is there still so much 'patrolling' going on. Why are there the same number of people employed doing the same jobs?

You seem to think modernisation has already happened - in fact it has hardy begun.

Visual track patrolling has been hugely scaled back since the measurement trains were rolled out. The frequency of patrolling was reduced on all categories of routes and staff were reduced significantly for this task. However, inspections of S&C needs certain measurements being taken that the measuring trains can't do for example.

So what key modernisation would you put at top of your list for NR infrastructure mtce?

 

[EZJ]

Seems the government have just made this a whole lot worse.

 

[gabrielhj07]

At least they're being upfront about it!

 

[bramling]

A Shapps instigated RD/OT ban would have been the most spectacularly own goal. If it was considered, it really shows how little he knows about how the industry works. It'd probably end up causing far more chaos/unpredictability than the strikes in some respects/places.

Exactly. If everything was fully covered then you could do a RDW ban (albeit it would then be pointless). But we all know there’s RDW galore in the industry, because for various reasons there’s always numerous uncovered shifts.

 

[RPI]

Seems the government have just made this a whole lot worse.

I'm surprised its taken until now to be honest, we all knew this would come up, may as well just go nuclear

 

[Thumper1127]

Because I do love it, but I don't agree that the changes that they wish to make are right. I think we can do better than that. I think we can do better than watching our colleagues fear losing their jobs or being forced out. Because I think that the direction that they want to go in would have detrimental impacts to the quality of our railway. I love it and want to see it do better.


While not all S&T jobs need three people, I find that the vast majority are made safer, more flexible, and more efficient by having that third person. It is more nuanced than just having 3x staff hours rather than 2x staff hours as those hours can be used more effectively with three. It has parallels with the "just in time" supply chain model, it can be cheaper if everything is going well, but if there is a disruption the consequences are more severe. Running at the bare minimum is not always worth it in the long run.

If three people are rostered and one goes sick, then it's likely that a lot of the work can still be achieved. If two are rostered, then unless someone can be persuaded in at short notice, nothing can be done.

If the work is over a long stretch then with three people one person can drive around and collect them. Two miles are walked, rather than having a four-mile round trip, spending more time trackside and doing two miles of unproductive walking. If they are a response team and a fault occurs when they're part way through the walk a third person with the van could collect them from the nearest access point, rather than having to wait for them to walk back to their van, up to two miles away. I've done work in one day due to that third person that took us two or three days with just two.

If working at heights is required then three people are required. If working at height is required as a response to a fault the fault will have to wait until a third person is found.

Point maintenance tasks are vastly more efficient with three people. Just getting the equipment to site is safer and easier, and people aren't pressured into attempting to carry too much and increase the risk of injury to avoid wasting time making two trips. (For reference the kit for some fairly routine point maintenance would be: cleaning sprays/lubricant, rags, brushes, grease gun, point handle, gauge pouch, track gauge, 3-4 spanners, multimeter, general small tools, and a 20kg light at night). Some point maintenance tasks can be done with just two people, but it's two or three times faster with three people.

On a common axle counter failure the best way to identify where the problem is occurring over a several mile stretch is to physically check the security of terminals and see if any disturbances are triggered in the process of doing so. It is often the case that something may appear to be well-terminated, but is just poor enough to cause a poor connection. With three people one can remain with the diagnostic laptop while the other checks, if any warnings are triggered they can contact them and the problem is fixed there and then. If there are two people then the alternative is to check the security as best as possible, recording the times at each location, travel to carry out a diagnostic download, and then return to the location that was being checked at the time of the disturbance. One method is vastly more time-consuming and less efficient than the other...

Three people aid in the never-ending battle against vegetation. Where there is a task that can be carried out by two people, the third can clear vegetation around assets and walking routes. That time is not wasted but is harder to capture. With two people either that time is lost, or it gets ignored, making it harder for the next person.

With three people one person can focus on safety arrangements more predominantly, rather than having to do that and any work that requires two people. It doesn't have to be all they do, but they can dedicate more of their energy to that rather than trying to do everything. On faults I'd quite often ask someone else to COSS so that I'm not having to share my attention in that way.

In a team of three if someone has an injury and requires emergency assistance there is someone to meet the emergency services at the access point and there is one person who can remain with the casualty. In a team of two the uninjured party will have to weigh up leaving the casualty alone vs hoping that the emergency services are able to navigate to them and are willing to enter the railway unaccompanied.

I'm not aware of any studies that have been done comparing the safety of working separated with site warden vs working separated COSS+1 (probably because they are recorded as the same thing in the majority of systems), but I would be very surprised to find that it was not safer to have a site warden whos job is to keep you right and ensure that you do not lose situational awareness.

In the model where the third person is a general dogsbody who is allocated when required, the opportunity for learning on the job is reduced, and progression avenues are not naturally occurring. What incentive does a teamleader have to teach them when they could have someone else the next day, or no one at all? Teaching people is beneficial for all—the learner knows more, and is more engaged/satisfied because they understand what is going on, the rest of the team benefits because they have another useful pair of hands at their disposal rather than someone that's just sort of hanging around because it might as well be a mysterious arcane ritual to them.

To sum up, the role of the third person is hard to quantify, but they are important in many subtle ways and everything works a lot smoother with them. I think it would be a mistake to remove them. Even just discovering that something is unexpectedly required, say two padlocks were found to be broken and you need a second spare. That third person could fetch one from the van. If they're not a general dogsbody floating around between teams they might even know where to find it in the van! Or in the case of something more technical, they might know what it looks like.


On this point I do agree, and I feel that having and utilising more PCs (Protection Controllers) would be of benefit. It isn't always possible due to the nature of the work but it could be done more often than not, and I think it's something that really does need doing.

Thanks for a very comprehensive, detailed post which actually informs those not involved in maintenance as to what the day to day issues are and how a reduction to two could have such a negative impact. Lots of hot air on this thread (understandably given the passions) but considered posts making good practical arguments are really appreciated.

 

[Starmill]

I'm surprised its taken until now to be honest, we all knew this would come up, may as well just go nuclear

Indeed, unfortunately the RMT have already deployed their largest escalation, and have kept nothing in reserve to deploy against the threat of DOO rollout.

 

[bramling]

I'm surprised its taken until now to be honest, we all knew this would come up, may as well just go nuclear

Dead cat for tonight’s by-election likely drubbings?

It suits Johnson very well to have the news dominated by rail strikes.

 

[Starmill]

Seems the government have just made this a whole lot worse.

@SCDR_WMR hinted at this earlier this afternoon and a few other rumor mill accounts on Twitter have also mentioned it.

Unfortunately it's a very concerning development but a natural one for the government to make if basically everyone is already in dispute with them. Same goes for Network Rail moving ahead with their consultation. RMT can't start a dispute with them when they're already in one.

Please though, it’s always worth adding a text description!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed, unfortunately the RMT have already deployed their largest escalation, and have kept nothing in reserve to deploy against the threat of DOO rollout.

They can go for all out strike action but would have to run it indefinitely which is a big ask on the members.

 

[Starmill]

They can go for all out strike action but would have to run it indefinitely which is a big ask on the members.

All-out is incredibly unlikely. They could do five days rather than three, but that would still only be a week of disruption.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

All-out is incredibly unlikely. They could do five days rather than three, but that would still only be a week of disruption.

It didn't get the miners anywhere because they failed to recognise that for the previous 12mths they had been getting oodles of overtime to get as much coal out the ground as they could to ensure power stations were overflowing with coal. I doubt NR staff can sustain even a 12hr service day after day.

The biggest threat to DfT intentions over DOO is whether ASLEF buy into this and im not so sure this can be taken for granted. Also general public aren't fully invested into a peopleless railway especially in urban conurbations.

 

[Starmill]

It didn't get the miners anywhere because they failed to recognise that for the previous 12mths they had been getting oodles of overtime to get as much coal out the ground as they could to ensure power stations were overflowing with coal. I doubt NR staff can sustain even a 12hr service day after day.

The biggest threat to DfT intentions over DOO is whether ASLEF buy into this and im not so sure this can be taken for granted. Also general public aren't fully invested into a peopleless railway especially in urban conurbations.

Indeed. But Aslef were happy at GTR and Greater Anglia weren't they? The general public has no concept of the difference between a guard and an onboard host.

 

[footprints]

Seems the government have just made this a whole lot worse.

If the RMT are going to be striking anyway, where's the deterrent for the Government not to do this? The RMT have played straight into their hands.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed. But Aslef were happy at GTR and Greater Anglia weren't they?

Acknowledged but that was five years back are ASLEF still prepared to follow the money?

 

[nanstallon]

Pensioners tend to be ready made Tory voters though.

The Tories reneged on their promise to maintain the triple link. No group of voters like to be taken for granted, so the Tories need to throw the pensioners a bit of red meat.

 

[Starmill]

Acknowledged but that was five years back are ASLEF still prepared to follow the money?

I have absolutely no idea. Good question.

 

[Sorcerer]

That was with tssa who are mainly backroom staff/management.
Guards are rmt, the dispute involving them- which has nothing to do with the current strikes- has yet to be settled.
Drivers are aslef. Again whilst they have recently had a pay award there has yet to be any discussion with them over training and t&Cs regarding the new stock .

Thanks for the clarity!

 

[Magdalia]

Indeed. But Aslef were happy at GTR and Greater Anglia weren't they? The general public has no concept of the difference between a guard and an onboard host.

GTR and GA trains between the Fens and London have no onboard staff at all, unless you count the occasional revenue protection staff and the contract cleaners.

 

[Andyh82]

Indeed, unfortunately the RMT have already deployed their largest escalation, and have kept nothing in reserve to deploy against the threat of DOO rollout.

There are still some reserves

An indefinite strike
Or Network Rail striking every other day and TOC staff on the days in between meaning staff would alternate between being on strike, and working but with very little work to do on the days in between

When do we think the next dates will be announced and when is the earliest they could occur?

 

[Darandio]

An indefinite strike

Unaffordable on the part of the members, surely?

And i'm not sure whether an alternate day strike is workable but again, how long can it be sustained.

 

[KendalR]

There are still some reserves

An indefinite strike
Or Network Rail striking every other day and TOC staff on the days in between meaning staff would alternate between being on strike, and working but with very little work to do on the days in between

When do we think the next dates will be announced and when is the earliest they could occur?

Earliest is 2 weeks as that's the notice legally which has to be given.

 

[Starmill]

An indefinite strike

This is very unlikely indeed because it is is just too much.

 

[dk1]

GTR and GA trains between the Fens and London have no onboard staff at all, unless you count the occasional revenue protection staff and the contract cleaners.

Very true but the Norwich-Stansted 755 services must have a guard booked throughout.

 

[Watershed]

I have absolutely no idea. Good question.

I would have thought that the government could easily offer a generous - perhaps even inflationary - pay increase to ASLEF members with the savings they would achieve if they make guards redundant. I would be surprised if such a deal were to be outright rejected, though the level of increase would likely be a sticking point.

Of course it's unclear whether making guards completely redundant is what is being proposed. It sounds like there would still be a member of onboard staff.

There are still many routes where DOO is still years from any potential introduction (e.g. where Sprinter stock is used), and so guards will have to remain on the payroll for a long time yet. This would still leave the RMT with a considerable amount of leverage.

Personally I think this is more of a 'nuclear threat' than a realistic intention. If it is enacted I would expect the outcome to be something closer to what exists on GA's ex-Anglia Railways routes now, i.e. DCO but with a guaranteed, safety-critical guard.