Rail strikes discussion

[windingroad]

It’s a fight that isn’t going to be won, and I can’t be dealing with the stresses of the fight. I’ve not been balloted yet and I’m having sleepless nights worrying about it. So yes, I’d rather just leave and not have that anymore.

You shouldn't have to feel that way and I'm sorry you do. The fight certainly isn't going to be won if one side gives up before it even begins, though.

 

[endicomark69@g]

Central Government doesn’t have a magic money tree….

Except it does when it comes to covering for Sunak/Treasury "goofs" around debt-repayment scheduling (£11bn spaffed) or wheezes like Test &Trace brought to you by Friends of the Tory Party (£37bn is just the "declared" figure they'll admit to) so yeah. They do when it suits them.

Any more Central Office talking points to offer?

 

[Gems]

Except it does when it comes to covering for Sunak/Treasury "goofs" around debt-repayment scheduling (£11bn spaffed) or wheezes like Test &Trace brought to you by Friends of the Tory Party (£37bn is just the "declared" figure they'll admit to) so yeah. They do when it suits them.

Any more Central Office talking points to offer?

Can we add £5 billion in start up loan fraud. How about £11 billion in furlough fraud. What about £4 billion in dodgy PPE. Maybe we could add £2 billion in eat out spread it all about fraud.

Please, can we add these, pwetty pwease.

 

[dctraindriver]

It’s a fight that isn’t going to be won, and I can’t be dealing with the stresses of the fight. I’ve not been balloted yet and I’m having sleepless nights worrying about it. So yes, I’d rather just leave and not have that anymore.



Yes, I know a Freighliner manager, he asked me to come and drive for him before. I might take him up on it.

If you really are struggling financially and let’s face it many live to their means, speak to your LDC. There are hardship funds. Or speak to the welfare line that your TOC has hopefully set up. They can give advice about debt issues. Alternative look at the forums on moneysavingexpert.com

Many people struggle, don’t feel just because you earn a decent salary you can’t reach out to others for help and advice.

You really don’t deserve to lay away at night worrying, that’s asking for a SOL which could stop you moving companies or worse your job.

 

[Chingy]

Yes, I know a Freightliner manager, he asked me to come and drive for him before. I might take him up on it.

Whilst freight companies aren't directly involved with the current industrial action, they are still significantly affected by it.

We have already been informally told that should the industrial action go on for a protracted period of time, things will start to influence us and affect our way of work, job security etc, as FOC's are private companies, as such they don't receive government assistance etc.

Judging by your location, I assume your considering the Mendip or Taunton depots. If the former, it's quite a busy depot with long hours. If the later, expect plenty of T3 work.

 

[nanstallon]

You don't put a fire out by pouring petrol onto it -
"Boris Johnson has responded to the biggest rail strikes in a generation with plans to break the industrial action by allowing firms to bring in agency staff, a move that unions have decried as unworkable, unsafe and potentially breaking international law."

Are there any agency staff who can do work involving safety responsibilities? I doubt it.

 

[ComUtoR]

Are there any agency staff who can do work involving safety responsibilities? I doubt it.

There are plenty. At least one of which has kindly posted in this thread.

 

[gazr]

Q. Are drivers and their Union (ASLEF) not striking because they are happy with the pay they are on, and see no need to ballot and strike in the future? Lol. Honestly take people for mugs. Unions working together as they know full well one can't operate fully without the other.

 

[KM1991]

Q. Are drivers and their Union (ASLEF) not striking because they are happy with the pay they are on, and see no need to ballot and strike in the future? Lol. Honestly take people for mugs. Unions working together as they know full well one can't operate fully without the other.

It will come.

 

[Sawasdee]

No the starting salary is just above minimum wage for new starters
It's nowhere near £33k that would be more experienced cabin crew

Yeah OK then... You obviously know better than me who was doing the job for over 4 years and experienced the same salary from day 1.

 

[Bald Rick]

Back again for some daily fact explaining

Thank you. I do find NR staff cuts (and, aiui, a reduction of annual hours of maintenance) very worrying.

reducing hours spent on maintenance does not mean lower maintenance standards. What it does mean is more efficient methods of doing the maintenance, or better kit that needs maintaining less frequently.

Sunday working a big one apparently. No pay deal or dispute will be resolved by the attempted inclusion of Sunday into the working week. Not going to happen.

it has just happened in Scotland.

The problem with all this we really have no idea what's being offered or requested. If one side came out and said we're offering x% based on Sunday working and xxx then the public could make an informed decision where their sympathy lies. Not that I believe it would happen because both parties aren't being totally upfront in my opinion.

Any idea where one might find info. on these 20 areas of modernization? Or is it just nonsense?

as this is a detailed matter between the company and the staff representatives, it is confidential between them. Or should be.

I hear from my union rep the major sticking point is Network Rail wanting to change T&Cs.
The most alarming, all current staff contracts to increase from 35 hours to 40 hours.
New starters to be on a 44 hour contract.

your union rep is, I’m afraid, not correct.

May I correct a few points

people on salary at network rail do not record the actual hours they are working,

some do, although of course I don’t doubt that you do not.

Network Rail senior management do not understand the workforce. There are thousands who want to take voluntary severance. The company have only allowed staff from the corporate support team (Milton Keynes office) and major projects to leave.

I’m afraid this is just wrong. people have taken voluntary severance from office roles all parts of the company, and all over the country.

As for not understanding the ‘workforce’, there are of course some who are not well versed in the ways that their front line maintenance and operations colleagues work, but then that is the same in any big company. However there are plenty that do understand them. Not least the person leading the negotiations on the maintenance changes, who has worked his way up from an apprentice technician 35 years ago, and is very well respected by everyone who knows him.

Unsurprisingly, a large portion of those staff who took voluntary severance are now back as contractors or through agencies such as Jacobs earning far more money doing the same job.

That is not true. A few arewith contractors, and I don’t know of anyone back doing the same job. Most that I know who have left are spending their days in the garden, cycling, travelling and generally not working.

Red zone working was a perfectly safe way of working with very few safety instances.

but those few safety incidences led to several of our colleagues being killed. I know the people who had to go and talk to their families afterwards, all of whom wanted to know why it was allowed for people to be on the track with trains running. I wouldn’t want to have to do that, and I’m sure you wouldn’t too.

Network Rail senior managers on multiple conference calls with staff refuse to give details of what their version of modernisation looks like, they provide no detail.

that’s because they are respecting the rules of engagement with the unions. Personally I would much rather have the details published for all to see, but the principle of collective bargaining is that the details must be shared with the unions for their consideration before it can be advised to everybody. That is a key principle of union representation.

 

[WiredUp]

Clive - sorry you're wrong about several points for salaried managerial staff in Capital Delivery. Perhaps it is different in Works Delivery (who by the way do a great job). Otherwise much of what you say is true - especially morale...

May I correct a few points

* Network Rail salary staff can either be paid for over time or given a lieu day, different parts of the business operate different rules for working a Saturday night or weekend shift for salary staff. Working weekends is optional, you can say no and TSSA have supported this and the company have backed down when trying to force staff to work weekends for a lieu day. HR have admitted no one is mandated to work a weekend who is on salary (called role clarity). My contract merely states that my basic contractual hours are an average of 35 hours per week - and that I should be consulted if the days/hours change (never happened). All the company and my line manager need to do is demonstrate that the average over a period (4 weeks, 3 months whatever) is the case. You could do 55 hours one week and 15 the next. Okay - I still get paid the same but it ain't fun to do that too often. If you are the only person on a project or in a team who has a particular skill or competency then you are pretty much forced to work a shift to get the project done - and it has got worse after PPF.

* Network Rail salary staff can refuse to work more than their core hours provided they have meet ‘all business needs’. It’s not uncommon for management to pressure staff to work beyond 35 hours as most salary staff do over 40 hours as that is what is required to do the job. However, staff can refuse and it’s difficult for senior managers to demonstrate the staffs role can not be carried out within 35 as that’s the whole idea of a 35 hour week. Unrealistic and I have never seen anybody successful in pushing back against that.....especially in teams with contractors who cherry pick the glory shifts or those where their competencies are the only ones needed to sign off paperwork in longer possessions / blockades. It's difficult to work your way up the tree by not covering projects you are working on.

* people on salary at network rail do not record the actual hours they are working, this is a widespread problem TSSA are aware of and have raised with the company. For example, I am working on a piece of track at the moment and last week I did 3x 9 hour days but only recorded 7 hours for each day as I am only allowed to record what hours have been budgeted against the job. If I put in my true hours the line manager rejects the time sheet and asks me to resubmit it only showing 35 hours. They only have so many hours available for each project (job). Not true - we have to book all of our hours against particular project codes in CD - even if we exceed the 35 hours a week and book to other codes (meetings etc) - and go above the 'average'. When enquiring about this and raising it in my PDR with Line Managers and Band 2/3 staff I was told to do this to demonstrate the actual hours we work.....

* Network Rail senior management do not understand the workforce. There are thousands who want to take voluntary severance. The company have only allowed staff from the corporate support team (Milton Keynes office) and major projects to leave. Unsurprisingly, a large portion of those staff who took voluntary severance are now back as contractors or through agencies such as Jacobs earning far more money doing the same job.
If they offered voluntary severance across the board they would severely damage the unions support as you would see thousands of staff leaving. If Network Rail stated you can have voluntary severance provided you don’t strike and you may have to wait a year or two to get it but you are guaranteed it by April 24 (this is the latest start date we have been given for Great British Railways) you would instantly damage the unions strength. Agree.

* a lot of the changes Network Rail senior managers are proposing are as a result of their own decision to ban red zone working.
Red zone working was a perfectly safe way of working with very few safety instances.
Network Rail senior management banning of red zone working have forced the workforce to work nights and weekends to carry out their jobs.
The risk from working red zone where very low, staff worked during the day, they where a happy workforce. Now our staff are rostered on maximum nights and maximum weekend nights, which is 9 in 13 weeks of nights. The company encourages the staff to go on permanent nights if they volunteer. As part of ‘modernisation’ Network Rail senior managers want both hourly staff to be on nights as a default including Saturday night but also want salary staff (managers) to do the same for no extra pay.
Extensive night working is proven to be seriously damaging to physical health, mental health, relationships and social mobility. 100% correct on all points. It's hindered day time patrolling and project walkouts, and driven up costs.


My summary is the company wants to make drastic changes with a pay cut thrown in for good measure.
Anyone still at Network Rail will be considerably poorer in a number of ways.
The right thing to do and the best way to limit the strikes is to offer staff a way out via voluntary severance to limit compulsory redundancies.

What has really hurt the workforce is the lack of detail Network Rail senior leaders have communicated to staff about the changes they want to make.
We are only finding out information from union reps and the press.
Network Rail senior managers on multiple conference calls with staff refuse to give details of what their version of modernisation looks like, they provide no detail.
Network Rail senior management are part of the problem

Clive.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

that’s because they are respecting the rules of engagement with the unions. Personally I would much rather have the details published for all to see, but the principle of collective bargaining is that the details must be shared with the unions for their consideration before it can be advised to everybody. That is a key principle of union representation.

Do you think there is any chance of this changing?

I agree, I think it would be much better for the company overall if employees saw proposals directly themselves and would signifcantly reduce the amount of complaints about poor communication from Senior Management.

 

[irish_rail]

It’s a fight that isn’t going to be won, and I can’t be dealing with the stresses of the fight. I’ve not been balloted yet and I’m having sleepless nights worrying about it. So yes, I’d rather just leave and not have that anymore.



Yes, I know a Freighliner manager, he asked me to come and drive for him before. I might take him up on it.

As a fellow GWR driver I'd just like to say please don't let this situation affect your mental health too much. Life is too short. As others on here have said if the situation is that bad financially then talk to someone in GWR, the union or even another driver, even me! Remember, this situation will likely be put to bed by next year, don't rush into anything as you no doubt have a long career in front of you and you don't want to look back and regret leaving. Things will get better, we just need to tough it out in the short term.

 

[Egg Centric]

As a fellow GWR driver I'd just like to say please don't let this situation affect your mental health too much. Life is too short. As others on here have said if the situation is that bad financially then talk to someone in GWR, the union or even another driver, even me! Remember, this situation will likely be put to bed by next year, don't rush into anything as you no doubt have a long career in front of you and you don't want to look back and regret leaving. Things will get better, we just need to tough it out in the short term.

I agree with that but as a non-railway employee speaking in terms of generalities how things work in "normal" industries - if there's likely to be a bunch of staff jumping to Freightliner then @Mintona you would be strongly advised that you get ahead of the curve and apply now. There is no obligation to take the job offer at the end, after all.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you think there is any chance of this changing?

I agree, I think it would be much better for the company overall if employees saw proposals directly themselves and would signifcantly reduce the amount of complaints about poor communication from Senior Management.

no idea. If I got to make the decision though, I would insist on recording all formal meetings, and release the recording when the meeting had concluded. Then everyone gets to see what was discussed, and the manner in which it was discussed.

 

[nottsnurse]

30 years in clinical front line and manager roles

If that's the case then you must have stayed in a very small, very privileged pond.

As I said, I don't know a single Trust that has a policy against traveling in uniform (aside from aforementioned specialist areas) and I've worked in 20+ in just the last 11 years.

Here is an example of uniform policy from a Trust I've worked at.

https://www.nuh.nhs.uk/download/doc/docm93jijm4n1553.docx?ver=10349

"...uniform must be covered to/from work..."

That's it.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

no idea. If I got to make the decision though, I would insist on recording all formal meetings, and release the recording when the meeting had concluded. Then everyone gets to see what was discussed, and the manner in which it was discussed.

Agreed, would be a really positive step.

Would also stop a huge amount of misinformation that is being spread both externally and even internally.

 

[The Planner]

Clive - sorry you're wrong about several points for salaried managerial staff in Capital Delivery. Perhaps it is different in Works Delivery (who by the way do a great job). Otherwise much of what you say is true - especially morale...

The red zone one is wrong, that is NR responding to the ORR.

 

[Cdd89]

Remember Train Crew are the enemy on here and The Right Wing Press and the Tory Gov. its been shown so many times....I came back on here hoping things had gone a bit more central..sadly I was wrong.

Strikes are never going to be popular; you are acting in your own self interest, and others are going to think of their own self interest. They are designed to create anger and animosity, with the hope that this is directed toward rail bosses and the government, but in reality plenty will come the way of striking workers.

You’re 100% entitled to strike, but if I were a rail worker, my conscience would be nagging me about who my actions affect — it’s not well-heeled office workers any more, they can just not travel, but rather those whose commutes are not optional as their work is physical in some way, and thus often paid far less and with fewer alternatives.

It is not for me to say what threshold of conditions meets each person’s criteria for inflicting this disruption, but I do think it should be fairly high. I love rail travel but I am fortunate enough to be able to work around any strike, the vast majority of my travel, even work-related, is optional. Many are not.

 

[CFRAIL]

You don't put a fire out by pouring petrol onto it -
"Boris Johnson has responded to the biggest rail strikes in a generation with plans to break the industrial action by allowing firms to bring in agency staff, a move that unions have decried as unworkable, unsafe and potentially breaking international law."

Are there any agency staff who can do work involving safety responsibilities? I doubt it.

The question surely has to be where do we find all these additional agency workers?

I've no doubt they could work in a variety of station based roles, customer service, gate line, dispatch...

 

[74A]

So the offer is for 2% now and 1% in future and to get this real terms wage cut you also have to agree to accept wide spread job losses from as soon as 3 months away, Sundays inside the week for no payment, a pension age increase of 3 years, pension contribution increase of 1% per year indefinitely (so giving all of the increase back within a couple of years) with some unspecified staff paying even more), agree to having shifts changed or cancelled at short notice and you must give up the right to take industrial action over any of the implementation of these items without knowing the full terms, who they will effect and how they will be implemented.

Sounds like a great deal, I can't see what RMT's issue is.

No it's not Sundays inside for no payment. It as they are now but you have to work them no option to throw them in. So still overtime.

 

[jayah]

They did when they were dishing out funds when covid arrived.

They didn't, that is why we are in the current mess.

 

[320320]

it has just happened in Scotland.

Is this network rail maintenance in Scotland?

 

[irish_rail]

I agree with that but as a non-railway employee speaking in terms of generalities how things work in "normal" industries - if there's likely to be a bunch of staff jumping to Freightliner then @Mintona you would be strongly advised that you get ahead of the curve and apply now. There is no obligation to take the job offer at the end, after all.

I would think the number thinking of going to Freightlinwr right now is really quite low. Job security of being the "new boy" makes jumping ship at the present time less attractive. Also, I'm guessing Freightliner is a paycut on GWR but could be wrong???

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is genuinely horrific. There is no way in a million years this offer could ever even come close to being accepted.

The pay offer is a bit stingy. The rest of it strikes me as what the railway needs.

 

[jayah]

Well its borrowing an extra 37B to fund energy support payments to households who will then pay it back to energy companies but if it had paid energy companies direct it would have suppressed impact on CPI which is what unions are focussed on in pay negotiations.

I am not convinced the idea of the taxpayer giving a large wedge of cash to BP would really fly would it?

Especially since they are doing exactly the opposite!

 

[Egg Centric]

Job security of being the "new boy" makes jumping ship at the present time less attractive.

Is this a thing on the railways (past probationary period)? Am kinda surprised

 

[jayah]

The risk from working red zone where very low, staff worked during the day, they where a happy workforce. Now our staff are rostered on maximum nights and maximum weekend nights, which is 9 in 13 weeks of nights.

It is remarkable how little safety counts for when it comes down to days off.

The same unions are campaigning to spend £bn to replace mk3 stock, which is far more safe than working on a live railway as shown time and again in RAIB reports on incidents involving track workers, injuries, near misses, and fatalities.

 

[gazzaa2]

What frustrates me more than anything is the number of my colleagues who voted for this shower. Why on earth do people vote for a government that had basically declared war on them in their election manifesto.

The public are stupid and would rather eat their own.

The Tories only interest in the railways is getting HS2/Crossrail finished so they can get to parliament quicker from their constituencies (when they can be bothered to turn up that is).