Rail travel - a luxury?

[Purple Orange]

But to the great majority of people, having a car is seen as a basic necessity, almost a right. For some may it be a necessity, but to others it is an automatic assumption that it is one.

Just as a train journey is a necessity to others (and seen as a basic one too). For instance, you could view the luxury of a car having unlocked the luxury of living in an area that grants you more space than you would have had, had you had to live closer in to a city with better public transport.

Another example is that a car is more expensive than a train. My wife and I both had at one point, two cars. When I got a job where I could commute on the train, the season ticket cost me £1,300 at the time (it’s £1,500 now). That is a lot of money when you compare it just to the cost of petrol usage for the equivalent journey. But I got rid of my car, saving on insurance, services, no need for monthly finance payments, making the cost of my season ticket look like fantastic value for money.

Therefore luxury to me is stepping from my kitchen, in to my garage, getting in the car, listening to music properly (rather than through earphones) as I drive, park in the car park at my place of work and walk in to the office.

Compare that to a 10 minute walk (in the rain) to the station, sit (or stand) on a train with hundreds of others, then a 15-20 minute walk to my place of work (possibly in the rain too). The other advantage is that the door-to-door journey on the train is quicker than driving.

 

[DH1Commuter]

Try any Northern train (or, worse, the Metro) and then call it a luxury! For many in the NE, particularly those who are car-less or who commute into cities where traffic is awful (Newcastle and Durham particularly) rail is how you get to and from work. Not always comfortable, in normal times often standing-only/packed, but better than the alternatives.

 

[JamesT]

The train is mostly irrelevant for my daily life. I live on the outskirts of Oxford and work in the city centre. I'd go past my office before I got to the railway station. Whereas the bus goes from a few hundred metres away to the city centre at high frequency all through the day and some of the night too. Maybe if the Cowley Branch line ever reopens I'll have to consider it though it will involve longer walks at either end.

My primary use of the railways is making long trips to Scotland or Manchester to save having to do long solo drives. But often the inflexibility of the railways force me back to the car. For example, wanting to be in Manchester for a midday kick-off at the weekend. There wasn't a train early enough that would get me there in time. So you have to consider an overnight stay at inflated hotel prices.

I'd say rail travel is a luxury in that it only works if you have the ability to organise your life around their schedule.

 

[al78]

My train use has decreased significantly over the last few years. I went car free for a couple of years and it does make transport logistics more difficult, there are some things you can't practically do or are doable but too much hassle/tiring. I have less need to use the train locally (I mostly used it for leisure related journeys), on Sunday it is sometimes quicker to cycle 15-18 miles thanks to poor connection times, and these days I drive to visit family, because driving from there to a national park to hike up a hill/mountain is barely possible without a car, and impossible during the GMT period, and to get there and back costs arouind £50 in petrol, as opposed to over £100 now that advance tickets between Horsham and Manchester are extremely rare.

 

[Philip]

I still don't think the railway helps itself when it comes to first class. Railways shouldn't be competing with airlines...they are for foreign travel (long distance foreign travel preferably).

Why should commuters between Manchester and Birmingham, Leeds or London for example have to crowd into standard carriages when there is one or more carriages carting mainly fresh air, only available to those who can afford it? I know there are some cheap first class fares if booking in advance, but it does still feel like it caters for the landed gentry. Perhaps a modern day railway should be all about being a convenient public service, rather than offering luxuries like first class (to the detriment to those who can't use it)?

 

[Darandio]

It's not a luxury; I invite you to travel on the Bishop Auckland to Saltburn line and tell me it's a "luxury".

Hey!

It's a damn sight more luxurious these days with the removal of Pacers which were wall to wall for a couple of decades. On the very rare occasion a 156 would turn up it was like the Venice Simplon express had rolled into the platform. Those and the 158 are our new normal, it's a world of luxury.

 

[davetheguard]

There is still a big thing about first class

I've never understood why some people have a "thing about first class" as you put it. If someone chooses to pay extra to have more space, a "free" cup of tea, or a table lamp, what's the problem? Some people are prepared to pay for extra quality; should we stop selling coffee beans in supermarkets and make people buy the cheapest brand of instant that's more chicory than coffee? No of course not.

In both cases you makes your choice and pays your money (to reverse a well known saying). Why worry about what other people want to do?

 

[RT4038]

I still don't think the railway helps itself when it comes to first class. Railways shouldn't be competing with airlines...they are for foreign travel (long distance foreign travel preferably).

Why should commuters between Manchester and Birmingham, Leeds or London for example have to crowd into standard carriages when there is one or more carriages carting mainly fresh air, only available to those who can afford it? I know there are some cheap first class fares if booking in advance, but it does still feel like it caters for the landed gentry. Perhaps a modern day railway should be all about being a convenient public service, rather than offering luxuries like first class (to the detriment to those who can't use it)?

Life is so terrible, isn't it? Why should some people be able to buy their food at Marks & Spencers, whilst there are some who can't afford to and have to go to Aldi or Poundland? Perhaps modern day supermarkets should be all about being a convenient public service, rather than offering luxuries to those who can afford it?

If there were no first class carriages (with people paying first class fares) we could have fewer carriages on the trains, or less frequent services, and certainly higher standard class fares to make up the revenue shortfall. In spite of the carriages 'carting mainly fresh air', first class revenue on Avanti was (pre Covid) something like 45% of the total revenue. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[The Planner]

I still don't think the railway helps itself when it comes to first class. Railways shouldn't be competing with airlines...they are for foreign travel (long distance foreign travel preferably).

Why should commuters between Manchester and Birmingham, Leeds or London for example have to crowd into standard carriages when there is one or more carriages carting mainly fresh air, only available to those who can afford it? I know there are some cheap first class fares if booking in advance, but it does still feel like it caters for the landed gentry. Perhaps a modern day railway should be all about being a convenient public service, rather than offering luxuries like first class (to the detriment to those who can't use it)?

Its called choice, if people want to pay extra for a premium service then why shouldn't they?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

45% of revenue? Probably a lot of first class travel is paid for by companies/organisations, not individuals
Perhaps third class could be reintroduced too

 

[Darandio]

45% of revenue? Probably a lot is paid by companies/organisations, not individuals
Perhaps third class could be reintroduced too

Why does it matter who pays for it? Revenue is revenue.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The customers of those organisations, or the taxpayers, pay in the end

 

[Darandio]

The customers of those organisations, or the taxpayers, pay in the end

And? Bear in mind the use of First Class travel is often used for productivity.

 

[mpthomson]

I still don't think the railway helps itself when it comes to first class. Railways shouldn't be competing with airlines...they are for foreign travel (long distance foreign travel preferably).

Why should commuters between Manchester and Birmingham, Leeds or London for example have to crowd into standard carriages when there is one or more carriages carting mainly fresh air, only available to those who can afford it? I know there are some cheap first class fares if booking in advance, but it does still feel like it caters for the landed gentry. Perhaps a modern day railway should be all about being a convenient public service, rather than offering luxuries like first class (to the detriment to those who can't use it)?

There are a significant number of business travellers who travel long distances in the UK, say London to the large northern cities and Edinburgh/Glasgow. For them the railway absolutely is competition for the airlines. Saying that airlines are solely for foreign travel is missing the reality of the situation in normal times. One of the decisions that sways train/plane decisions is the extra space available in First Class which enables people to work effectively on laptops etc, and refreshments that means it's possible to travel without bringing food/drink etc. In a previous job I used to go to London from the north of England regularly for meetings and always went first class, simply because I could carry on working on the journey, which is far less practical by plane and impossible if driving. I couldn't have done this in Standard. I'm far from landed gentry.

 

[Ianno87]

The customers of those organisations, or the taxpayers, pay in the end

And in turn customers of those organisations buy things based on the quality/product and price they receive. I couldn't care less if they've sent an employee first class as long as I perceive value for the thing that I've bought (And if it isn't value, I won't buy it at all)

 

[RT4038]

45% of revenue? Probably a lot of first class travel is paid for by companies/organisations, not individuals
Perhaps third class could be reintroduced too

There is a similar situation on many airlines too. Lots of people are prepared to pay extra for better comfort/service etc. and not having to sit with the oiks. The alternative is not that these people will sit with the oiks, but instead go by private transport.
I know this might anger some who want some kind of North Korean egalitarianism, but if it means the rest of us oiks get cheaper fares then so be it.

We already have a third class - it is called long distance coaches.

 

[yoyothehobo]

First class usage by business people is all about maintaining productivity. If people are being charged out at £100 per/hour for example and it is say an extra 50 pounds for first class on a 2 and a half hour journey where they can work with space and comfort, that is a lot better than not being able to work in standard class as you still have to pay the salary and you do not get the work, same with the economics of business class flights.

 

[Horizon22]

I think its highly dependent on location - you tell me that a 0600 train into C. London even during Covid times is filled with 'luxury', well-heeled customers. Or vast sections of outer London in the off-peak.

Of course for many people the car is the default choice in many parts of the country. But in many cities the option is either a) difficult (parking, traffic, speed), b) expensive (car maintenance, parking) and c) active (required to concentrate, can't move around). Younger generations also take into account the environmental factors.

Many I know want to use rail more, but often find the cost prohibitive and find it difficult to comprehend that the overall costs of a flight are somehow less (even when you explain the economics!). Some find the car cheaper, because people have a poor understanding of long-term costs of running a car and only see the ticket v fuel cost. Point to point journeys will always be more attractive than the railway though because inevitably taking a train it requires a car / bus / taxi for the last-mile section anyway.

This is a much wider point about connectivity to communities, political decisions on transport funding and levels of service provision.

 

[Purple Orange]

Hello. This notion of 1st class being the preserve of business travel is nonsense. I think a significant number of people who believe that to be true are not in tune with the travelling public as much as they think they are.

In normal times, I am a business traveller for most of my long distance travel. Those journeys would usually be Manchester to London, Birmingham, Leeds and sometimes to Liverpool & Edinburgh. Each of those journeys have the option of 1st class travel, but do I use it? No. My company states that standard class should be used at all times, unless it can be demonstrated that the price of a 1st class ticket is cheaper than standard (very rarely and not at times when I need to travel). That is the situation for everyone in the company and it has been true for all companies I have worked for.

Essentially, standard class is business class travel, and when I board the train to London, Birmingham or Leeds, sit in my standard class seat, I can clearly see that the vast majority of people are doing the same as me. Travelling in standard to another city for work purposes.

Would I get rid of 1st? No. Would I want to see better provision of business travel amenities in standard class, such as better space for using a laptop, better WiFi, more sockets? Yes. Would I reduce 1st class space? Yes. I think some TOCS could utilise that space far better.

 

[ashkeba]

[...] find it difficult to comprehend that the overall costs of a flight are somehow less (even when you explain the economics!). Some find the car cheaper, because people have a poor understanding of long-term costs of running a car and only see the ticket v fuel cost. [...]

Yes! Do richer people use trains or are people richer because they use trains?

When I rule, I will require all car dashboards to display a real journey "ticket" cost including servicing, taxes and pay that the driver could have earned in that time.

 

[ALEMASTER]

The thing with a discussion on this theme is that the railway is trying to be all things to all people so your view will vary depending on where you are travelling and the reason for your journey.

My experience in Sheffield is that for a local commute the train is generally quite affordable and for one off journeys comparable with the bus in price, although bus becomes better value with weekly/monthly passes. Other than that the decision is based on a train that is faster or a bus that is more frequent and stops closer to my actual origin/destination.

For longer distance journeys trains have in the last few years become outrageously expensive and unaffordable. An example earlier in the year a group of 4 of us went to London for the day and it was cheaper to have a taxi from Sheffield to London than go by train (a Super off peak travelcard day return is £89.50 per person and there wasn't any advance booking bargains to be had). Trips to neighbouring cities is no longer the reasonably priced thing to do on a whim either - for example Sheffield to Manchester, a 50 minute journey, costs £23.70 for an off peak return.

Long distance trains are also not performing that function exclusively, additionally catering for commuters over both short and medium distances and often stopping at random smaller places along the way. The likes of Cross Country and Transpennine Express suffer this especially and aren't really providing the suitable environment and experience either market requires, although conveying first class does go someway to provide that little bit extra comfort, space, facility and service the longer distance traveller wants for those prepared to pay a little more for it. In contrast a commuter is happy as long as the train comes when they want it and they get a seat. My experience pre-covid on both operators out of Sheffield that First class is well utilised at busy times, quiet however in the evening when there is no on board service.

 

[mpthomson]

The customers of those organisations, or the taxpayers, pay in the end

Hello. This notion of 1st class being the preserve of business travel is nonsense. I think a significant number of people who believe that to be true are not in tune with the travelling public as much as they think they are.

In normal times, I am a business traveller for most of my long distance travel. Those journeys would usually be Manchester to London, Birmingham, Leeds and sometimes to Liverpool & Edinburgh. Each of those journeys have the option of 1st class travel, but do I use it? No. My company states that standard class should be used at all times, unless it can be demonstrated that the price of a 1st class ticket is cheaper than standard (very rarely and not at times when I need to travel). That is the situation for everyone in the company and it has been true for all companies I have worked for.

Essentially, standard class is business class travel, and when I board the train to London, Birmingham or Leeds, sit in my standard class seat, I can clearly see that the vast majority of people are doing the same as me. Travelling in standard to another city for work purposes.

Would I get rid of 1st? No. Would I want to see better provision of business travel amenities in standard class, such as better space for using a laptop, better WiFi, more sockets? Yes. Would I reduce 1st class space? Yes. I think some TOCS could utilise that space far better.

If you create what you've designed in your last paragraph then you've just described first class.... Standard is never going to be expanded in that manner as it reduces the number of seats available. I've always used first class for business travel, simply because my hourly rate is such that the value it offers in terms of productivity significantly outweighs the extra cost of the ticket, especially when booked ahead of time where possible. I'm not particularly interested in being in tune with the rest of the travelling public, I want to be able to use my time most productively.

 

[Horizon22]

I think there's also an issue of spontaneity and fault.

For instance, if I wanted to go see my family this weekend by car, I could phone them up Friday morning and travel on the Friday evening and the price will broadly be the same as if I went on Saturday morning, Saturday evening or the middle of the day on Monday. But by rail this can vary massively which adds a level of inconvenience. Rail can be very cheap; but only if you book in advance which again adds some inconvenience and prior planning. It's not dissimilar to the airlines that way; when was the last time someone went to an airport to get a "walk-up fare"? It's a key feature of the railway to be able to do this, but you'll pay a cost premium to do so; again this is something people fail to understand when the sensationalist headlines come out about "Flight to sunny X half the price of a train ticket to Manchester"

Then there's fault - people often bemoan the train "oh I was 40 minutes late because I missed my connection by a few minutes so had to get the train 30 minutes afterwards". Or even without a connection, there's the issue of a point-to-point delay for what could be many reasons. People don't take that account in their car because a) there are no "connections" but also b) they fail to understand the delay. If you're stuck in traffic apparently that's "just the way it is", even though that is the equivalent of a signal failure somewhere on the line. People don't tweet at Highways England very often because they are stuck in traffic!

 

[6Gman]

This is exactly the point, the railway seems to encourage the class system; as an example why take 4 coaches of an 11 coach train out of use for standard fare paying passengers and make it exclusive only for those who can afford the premium fare?

Until very recently much of the poorest areas of the UK (the North and the South Wales Valleys) have been lumbered with the worst kind of train in the Pacers. There's another example.

1. Why have 4 coaches of First Class? Because there's a demand and it generates income.
2. When did North Wales last have Pacers? Very recently? I haven't seen one in North Wales for a long time.

On a more general point the railways are not alone in "encouraging the class system" (if you want to call it that). I can stay in a Travelodge or in the Ritz. I can eat in MacDonalds or La Gavroche. I can drive a Skoda or a Bentley. It's called choice.

 

[Bald Rick]

Some of the public don't seem anywhere near as well-read about the railway system as they do about the buses for example.

Not sure where you are getting this info from. Most of the public know little about either, unless they use them. Even then they’ll know only about their ‘bit’. In principle, though, a greater proportion of the population will occasionally use a train than a bus. Personal anecdote not being evidence etc... but of all the people I know around where I live, about 20% use the train regularly, another 20% use it occasionally and as far as im aware precisely 0% have been on a bus (other than in central London) any time in recent history.

Beeching closed many local lines and small stations which, while they may not have been money-makers, were very convenient for townspeople making short hops as they do on the buses in their cars now

Corrected

I still don't think the railway helps itself when it comes to first class. Railways shouldn't be competing with airlines...they are for foreign travel (long distance foreign travel preferably).

I suggest you look at the easyjet and/ or BA websites for flights between London and Glasgow or Edinburgh. Railways are competing with airlines, and a very lucrative market it is too.


Why should commuters between Manchester and Birmingham, Leeds or London for example have to crowd into standard carriages when there is one or more carriages carting mainly fresh air, only available to those who can afford it?

This misrepresents the position. I have been on countless long distance trains where first class was full but there were empty carriages in standard. Revenue yield managment by the long distance operators is now very good at filling first class equally as well as standard. Try catching any Saturday morning train from London to Scotland, or Sunday afternoon back.

For long distance travel, there is a reasonable proportion of first class passengers who wouldn’t travel by train if first class wasn’t available. They would drive, fly, or not travel at all.

 

[6Gman]

I haven't mentioned car ownership in the thread. I am comparing rail travel to bus travel and if you take Manchester as an example, a much bigger proportion of people use the bus to get from the suburbs to the centre of town than the train, even if there is a station close by. It may be the other way round in places like Wilmslow or Heald Green, but these are much wealthier areas.

Do you actually have any evidence for that statement?

 

[Purple Orange]

If you create what you've designed in your last paragraph then you've just described first class.... Standard is never going to be expanded in that manner as it reduces the number of seats available. I've always used first class for business travel, simply because my hourly rate is such that the value it offers in terms of productivity significantly outweighs the extra cost of the ticket, especially when booked ahead of time where possible. I'm not particularly interested in being in tune with the rest of the travelling public, I want to be able to use my time most productively.

Yet here we are chatting on an Rail forum on a working day.

I haven’t described 1st class and utilising 1st class space in a more efficient way certainly is an issue for some TOCS. Better space for using a laptop doesn’t mean fewer seats, but it can mean better fold-down tables. Add in more reliable WiFi and we will see that simple improvements can go a long way. Plenty of people do use a laptop in standard class and the idea that it is not possible do work there is rubbish.

Hourly rates at most levels in a business can justify the incremental price difference of a 1st class ticket (in case some people look quizzical, I am not referring to an hourly rate in terms of hourly salary). Yet the vast majority of companies do not permit it.

 

[misterredmist]

I don't think it is a 'class' issue at all...... you'll have seen the various replies above and none of them are relevant to class, it's all about necessity, convenience, value and opportunity to travel on the train, and if 1st Class is an option, particularly on long distance, then , why not ?

pre-pandemic I was a regaular user of the first class LNER service to our HQ in Berwick-upon-Tweed. I could plan in advance and therefore take advantage of the 1st Class service at not too much a 'premium'. A no brainer, it's more comfortable, I can work easily whilst en-route, and 'Brucie Bonus' , one gets fed and watered.

When I travel with the 'Missus' to Scotland once a year, usually the Highland Chieftain to Inverness, hire a car, travel around the Highlands etc for a while, make our way back to Glasgow and get a train to Euston. It would be madness to make those long journeys by car, and of course, we book in advance and go 1st Class. For the time spent on the trains it's so easier a journey when you have more room and you are provided with food and drinks. The train is ideal for those sorts of journeys, and 1st Class really works well too.

I suspect the above options will be a lot more expensive post-pandemic, but I am looking forward to travelling by train again from next Spring onwards.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yet here we are chatting on an Rail forum on a working day.

It's lunch time

 

[Darandio]

Yet here we are chatting on an Rail forum on a working day.

Every day is a working day?