Railcard expired without me knowing, officer told me I wouldn’t be fined - Advice please!

[anonymoustrain]

Hi there. I was travelling on a Northern service from Burley Park to Leeds (a 5 minute journey), and bought a ticket just before boarding. I have a railcard on the Trainline app, that I realised had expired once I opened my ticket and saw no “Show Railcard” button. The discount was still automatically applied despite the railcard having expired! I tried to renew it, but unfortunately I was sat right next to the officer’s door and didn’t have time before he came around.

It was (just my luck) a revenue officer, and so I just explained the situation to him honestly and asked if I could buy a new ticket or renew my railcard. He understood that it was a genuine mistake. He took my details but stressed that I wouldn’t have to pay a FPN, but that I would just have to pay the difference in fare (£1.30) or pay for a full price ticket (a grand total of £3.80). I was not entirely sure he was being honest with me so I triple checked, and he confirmed three times.

Skip to today, and I’ve received a Fixed Penalty Notice of £103.80 !!

I feel like this is a really drastic response and it’s especially jarring that I was misled so deliberately. I understand paying a penalty fare but this is a very disproportionate response. I am also unfortunately in a difficult financial situation and can’t actually afford the fine. I have a couple of questions:

- If I appeal, might they agree that it’s disproportionate and that I should be charged a Penalty Fare instead?

- Will it make a difference that I can’t afford the fine?

- Will it make a difference that the revenue officer overtly lied about what he would do with my personal details and the FPN? I am wondering if there is any recourse for being misled regarding personal data.

Basically, do I have any hope here?

Thanks very much!

 

[Snow1964]

Is it a £3.80 full fare, and a penalty of £100

Is the penalty £50 if paid with 2-3 weeks. If you appeal this should stop the clock.

However if your railcard had expired it is your responsibility not to buy a discounted ticket, so not really a good reason to appeal.

For clarity a penalty is not a fine, doesn't go to court so won't be recorded (criminal record) if you pay it. For many it is better to pay up, accept it as a not cheap mistake and move on.

 

[anonymoustrain]

Is it a £3.80 full fare, and a penalty of £100

Is the penalty £50 for paid with 2-3 weeks. If you appeal this should stop the clock

I couldn’t see anything about £50 within the letter. Think it’s just a flat £103.80. Yes, I think that’s an £100 fine with the £3.80 ticket price added.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Is the penalty £50 for paid with 2-3 weeks. If you appeal this should stop the clock

It’s not a penalty fare as it wasn’t issued at the time, so there’s no early payment reduction

 

[azOOOOOma]

I really wish Trainline wouldn’t remember and save the railcard or the tech was advanced enough to sense it being out of date. I appreciate it is the user’s responsibility to check but I feel bad for the ones caught out. They you have families sharing accounts with parents commuting to London with a YP discount left on from their children’s last purchase.

 

[methecooldude]

I really wish Trainline wouldn’t remember and save the railcard or the tech was advanced enough to sense it being out of date. I appreciate it is the user’s responsibility to check but I feel bad for the ones caught out. They you have families sharing accounts with parents commuting to London with a YP discount left on from their children’s last purchase.

Railcards can be purchased and/or held in another app, which is completely valid. Hence why Trainline either has the option of:

1. As it is now, keep the railcard used in the last search, as you say 'it is the user’s responsibility to check'
2. Don't remember any of the last search
3. Only remember the railcard if the Railcard is held in Trainline (which might not be a bad thing)

 

[anonymoustrain]

I really wish Trainline wouldn’t remember and save the railcard or the tech was advanced enough to sense it being out of date. I appreciate it is the user’s responsibility to check but I feel bad for the ones caught out. They you have families sharing accounts with parents commuting to London with a YP discount left on from their children’s last purchase.

I do think that it’s a major design fault that Trainline continues to add the railcard discount automatically even once it knows your railcard has expired. It’s so misleading, they should at least let you know inside the app and turn off the automatic discount. Seems like a trap

 

[father_jack]

This doesn't add up. We need the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The Revenue Inspector's body cam would have been activated as a matter of process and appropriate warning given.

He took my details but stressed that I wouldn’t have to pay a FPN, but that I would just have to pay the difference in fare (£1.30) or pay for a full price ticket (a grand total of £3.80). I was not entirely sure he was being honest with me so I triple checked, and he confirmed three times.

A train guard might have offered "customer service" on the train by offering compromises like the difference in fare or a new ticket but I can't believe proper revenue protection staff would have done this.

 

[anonymoustrain]

This doesn't add up. We need the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The Revenue Inspector's body cam would have been activated as a matter of process and appropriate warning given.


A train guard might have offered "customer service" on the train by offering compromises like the difference in fare or a new ticket but I can't believe proper revenue protection staff would have done this.

If he did have a body cam that would be great for my case! It happened as described, feel free to ask questions if you’d like more details. He called himself a revenue officer.

 

[father_jack]

If he did have a body cam that would be great for my case! It happened as described, feel free to ask questions if you’d like more details. He called himself a revenue officer.

The body cam would be there to protect the railways case.

Please refer to previous advice to tell the whole story.

 

[WesternLancer]

If he did have a body cam that would be great for my case! It happened as described, feel free to ask questions if you’d like more details. He called himself a revenue officer.

I fear you are going to have to pay this or argue about it in court where you will loose sadly.

You have my sympathy

 

[Hadders]

A Penalty Fare is an appropriate course of action in a case like this. A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the appropriate fare reduced to £50 plus the appropriate fare if paid within 21 days. There is also the right to appeal a Penalty Fare.

Unfortunately you weren't issued with a Penalty Fare. Train companies increasingly don't issue Penalty Fares for railcard issues. Instead they take details so that a further investigation can take place into your ticket purchasing history and if this reveals railcard discounted tickets have been purchased when you didn't hold a valid railcard they will investigate these as well. I do understand why train companies do this as railcard abuse is a significant issue. The usual outcome is to offer you an out of court settlement, which is what they have offered you.

The problem is, if the investigation reveals that this was a one-off issue, the out of court settlement is normally more than the discounted Penalty Fare would be. Also, there's no appeal against an out of court settlement. The only way to challenge it is to go to court.

 

[anonymoustrain]

A Penalty Fare is an appropriate course of action in a case like this. A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the appropriate fare reduced to £50 plus the appropriate fare if paid within 21 days. There is also the right to appeal a Penalty Fare.

Unfortunately you weren't issued with a Penalty Fare. Train companies increasingly don't issue Penalty Fares for railcard issues. Instead they take details so that a further investigation can take place into your ticket purchasing history and if this reveals railcard discounted tickets have been purchased when you didn't hold a valid railcard they will investigate these as well. I do understand why train companies do this as railcard abuse is a significant issue. The usual outcome is to offer you an out of court settlement, which is what they have offered you.

The problem is, if the investigation reveals that this was a one-off issue, the out of court settlement is normally more than the discounted Penalty Fare would be. Also, there's no appeal against an out of court settlement. The only way to challenge it is to go to court.

Thanks for this information! Do you think it is worth going to court over? Since they are right that my ticket wasn’t valid I’m not sure if I’d have any chance and would then be facing a criminal record. Would the fact that the original revenue officer lied about the FPN make any difference?

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for this information! Do you think it is worth going to court over? Since they are right that my ticket wasn’t valid I’m not sure if I’d have any chance and would then be facing a criminal record. Would the fact that the original revenue officer lied about the FPN make any difference?

If you go to court you would lose as your ticket was not valid and that's all the court will be concerned with.

Personally, I think it's probably best to pay the sum they're asking for to prevent the matter escalating to court and chalk it up to experience. Once the matter is settled you could complain about what you were told, you could make a subject access request for the bodycam footage although this might not have been kept.

It's frustrating when something like this happens but think of it in the same way as getting a parking ticket or speeding ticket - frustrating, annoying and expensive!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for this information! Do you think it is worth going to court over? Since they are right that my ticket wasn’t valid I’m not sure if I’d have any chance and would then be facing a criminal record. Would the fact that the original revenue officer lied about the FPN make any difference?

No. I would not risk going to court. The risk of an outcome that costs you more is high. It’s unfortunate.

Best to avoid court if possible imho.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for this information! Do you think it is worth going to court over? Since they are right that my ticket wasn’t valid I’m not sure if I’d have any chance

You would lose and be convicted under one of the railway bylaws, likely Bylaw 18. This is a strict liability matter like speeding.

Would the fact that the original revenue officer lied about the FPN make any difference?

No. The offence was complete the moment you stepped on the train.