Railcard had expired last year

[usersk]

Please can someone help. I purchased a Newcastle to Birmingham ticket with the help of a railcard. When arriving at Birmingham I was asked for my ticket which I showed, following my railcard. I realised my railcard had expired last year.

I explained I didn’t know my railcard had expired as no other train inspector or anything had asked for it since it had expired. Nor did I receive an email to state it was expired/expiring. I told the man it was a genuine mistake which he seemed unbothered by.

He then asked to see my trainline app with my bookings. I initially refused as I said that trainline themselves could go on my account and view the bookings. To which he responded he was going to contact the police. At this point I allowed him to view my phone and bookings. There were another 9 bookings which had been made since the expiry.

I received a letter today stating a £150 cost/fine that has occurred from the initial booking from newcastle to Birmingham. I am willing to pay the cost of 150 but I am worried I will be charged for the other 9 bookings. The letter only states the 150.

Surely they can’t charge for the others as there is no way of proving that I used them. For example 4 of those bookings were for my siblings/cousins.

I just wanted clarification that I will be only charged for the journey that was taken on the day?

Many thanks

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Could you post the letter here please? It helps to see exactly what they've said. Cover up your name, address and any reference numbers though.

 

[usersk]

Thanks for replying. Please see attached

 

[TheJester]

I‘d just pay that amount to make the matter go away.

J

 

[usersk]

I‘d just pay that amount to make the matter go away.

J

I am going too but I’m just worried that the others will come through too? Or would they have mentioned them in the letter as well?

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Could you post the letter here please? It helps to see exactly what they've said. Cover up your name, address and any reference numbers though.

Please see below

 

[jfollows]

Don’t worry.

The previous bookings can not be used as some kind of “evidence” against you. Buying a ticket without having a railcard is fine, I do it all the time. Using the ticket without a valid railcard invalidates the ticket.

What can happen is that train companies look into your history and invent a “settlement” amount they ask you to pay based on this information, and if so it’s usually wide to cooperate and pay up.

But you’ve got your settlement figure. So pay up and be happy. If they later come back to you and ask about historic transactions, well, come back here but the best advice will then be to ignore them in all likelihood.

Just keep squeaky clean in future, which I’m sure you’re going to do.

 

[duffield]

It looks like you may have been lucky in that they are immediately asking for this specific sum to avoid legal action, rather than first asking you to comment on "other suspicious tickets" that they have identified, so paying it should close the issue with no further consequences. If they were going to pursue any other issues, this is the letter that would have mentioned it, and there would be no specific sum for you to pay at this stage.

However it's worth noting that train companies can and do ask for payment in relation for other suspicious tickets, and if you want an out of court settlement, you have to either pay the amount they have requested, or show to their satisfaction that these tickets were used correctly. You may think this reversal of the burden of proof is unfair, but it is not illegal since the train company is not obliged to offer an out of court settlement at all so it is very much on their terms, and if you do not want to pay for the "other occasions" you can refuse and they will take to to court purely for the offence that they can prove. Anyhow, as we've said, it looks like you're in the clear if you pay this sum promptly.

 

[usersk]

Don’t worry.

The previous bookings can not be used as some kind of “evidence” against you. Buying a ticket without having a railcard is fine, I do it all the time. Using the ticket without a valid railcard invalidates the ticket.

What can happen is that train companies look into your history and invent a “settlement” amount they ask you to pay based on this information, and if so it’s usually wide to cooperate and pay up.

But you’ve got your settlement figure. So pay up and be happy. If they later come back to you and ask about historic transactions, well, come back here but the best advice will then be to ignore them in all likelihood.

Just keep squeaky clean in future, which I’m sure you’re going to do.

Thanks for the reply! I sure will as I said I didn’t even know it had expired as inspectors don’t even ask to see the railcard, hence I didn’t know it had expired.

That’s a massive relief it’s the only one off payment.

It looks like you may have been lucky in that they are immediately asking for this specific sum to avoid legal action, rather than first asking you to comment on "other suspicious tickets" that they have identified, so paying it should close the issue with no further consequences. If they were going to pursue any other issues, this is the letter that would have mentioned it, and there would be no specific sum for you to pay at this stage.

However it's worth noting that train companies can and do ask for payment in relation for other suspicious tickets, and if you want an out of court settlement, you have to either pay the amount they have requested, or show to their satisfaction that these tickets were used correctly. You may think this reversal of the burden of proof is unfair, but it is not illegal since the train company is not obliged to offer an out of court settlement at all so it is very much on their terms, and if you do not want to pay for the "other occasions" you can refuse and they will take to to court purely for the offence that they can prove. Anyhow, as we've said, it looks like you're in the clear if you pay this sum promptly.

Fab! Thanks for the lengthy reply. It’s been a massive help!

 

[WesternLancer]

Please can someone help. I purchased a Newcastle to Birmingham ticket with the help of a railcard. When arriving at Birmingham I was asked for my ticket which I showed, following my railcard. I realised my railcard had expired last year.

I explained I didn’t know my railcard had expired as no other train inspector or anything had asked for it since it had expired. Nor did I receive an email to state it was expired/expiring. I told the man it was a genuine mistake which he seemed unbothered by.

He then asked to see my trainline app with my bookings. I initially refused as I said that trainline themselves could go on my account and view the bookings. To which he responded he was going to contact the police. At this point I allowed him to view my phone and bookings. There were another 9 bookings which had been made since the expiry.

I received a letter today stating a £150 cost/fine that has occurred from the initial booking from newcastle to Birmingham. I am willing to pay the cost of 150 but I am worried I will be charged for the other 9 bookings. The letter only states the 150.

Surely they can’t charge for the others as there is no way of proving that I used them. For example 4 of those bookings were for my siblings/cousins.

I just wanted clarification that I will be only charged for the journey that was taken on the day?

Many thanks

The thing to remember is that if they did ultimately go to court (which can be avoided usually) and those other tickets were for your cousins. Then your cousins could go to the court and give evidence on oath that they used those tickets not you.

Of course lieing in court is a very serious matter and probably treated worse than fare evasion by the court.

But hopefully that wouldn’t be an issue.

 

[duffield]

The thing to remember is that if they did ultimately go to court (which can be avoided usually) and those other tickets were for your cousins. Then your cousins could go to the court and give evidence on oath that they used those tickets not you.

Of course lieing in court is a very serious matter and probably treated worse than fare evasion by the court.

But hopefully that wouldn’t be an issue.

If it went to court, all precedent says they would only pursue the charge for which the OP was stopped, since that's the only one they can prove beyond reasonable doubt. So the cousins wouldn't come into it.

 

[AlterEgo]

If it went to court, all precedent says they would only pursue the charge for which the OP was stopped, since that's the only one they can prove beyond reasonable doubt. So the cousins wouldn't come into it.

We’ve seen some train companies have an appetite for pursuing civil claims which are decided on the balance of probabilities.

 

[duffield]

We’ve seen some train companies have an appetite for pursuing civil claims which are decided on the balance of probabilities.

True, I was specifically referring to the more common criminal cases. However, even on the balance of probabilities in a civil case I'd say this would be a very weak case when it's perfectly normal for quite a lot of people to buy tickets for other people and the rail company has zero evidence as to who actually used them, so I'd say that even if WMR are using civil claims they wouldn't be likely to to pursue this specific sort of case.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Just to clarify a few things:

The settlement you've been offered deals with the ticket irregularity on the day you were caught. Once the settlement is paid West Midlands Trains cannot take any further action in respect of this incident.

There remains the issue of the other tickets purchased after the railcard had expired. We know from other cases that WMT are highly likely to write to you about these tickets. The letter will use threatening language and will mention police escalation and fraud. It is unlikely that WMT will have sufficient evidence to satisft a Magistrates Court that you used the tickets and are therefore guilty of an offence. There are four potential outcomes:

1. They will offer you a settlement which if you pay it will make the matter (and their threats) go away. You will have to pay for the tickets purchased when the railcard was expired at the full Anytime rate plus an admin fee.
2. They send the matter to the civil court as mentioned above by @AlterEgo
3. Do nothing

If you do nothing WMT will continue to send further threatening letters. If you decide to do nothing then you must not engage with WMT at all. Do not even acknowledge any letters or emails from them. Instead post a redacted copy in this thread and forum members will assist with next steps.

 

[Haywain]

However, even on the balance of probabilities in a civil case I'd say this would be a very weak case when it's perfectly normal for quite a lot of people to buy tickets for other people and the rail company has zero evidence as to who actually used them, so I'd say that even if WMR are using civil claims they wouldn't be likely to to pursue this specific sort of case.

They already have evidence of the OP using a discounted ticket. Are you suggesting that if asked in court if that is what happened with the other cases the OP should lie? As that would clearly be a foolish course of action, I would suggest that the evidence is actually rather strong for a civil court.

 

[duffield]

They already have evidence of the OP using a discounted ticket. Are you suggesting that if asked in court if that is what happened with the other cases the OP should lie? As that would clearly be a foolish course of action, I would suggest that the evidence is actually rather strong for a civil court.

I would never suggest lying to the court. The would be very foolish. I just don't think WMR would bring such a case. Anyhow, trying to keep this relevant to the OP, do we have any cases where WMR specifically has bought any civil actions?