Railcard

[Joygirl]

Please I got mail from west mainland train station about an incident that happened since October 2023. I got on the train without having a rail card as an international student I had no idea about what a rail card is. I thought with my student I'd I could use the discount. the staff made me to buy a new ticket and I did it immediately.
Below is a mail received I need your help pls

 

[AlterEgo]

The train company cannot prosecute you under the railway bylaws or the Regulation of Railways Act for the offence in October, nor any offences before then. They are out of time; they have six months to bring a prosecution which they have failed to do because they are disorganised and/or lazy. Too bad for them.

It is not for you to provide evidence of innocence. They must provide evidence of your guilt. There is no question of fraud here; you simply didn't know what a railcard was. Fraud is a very serious offence which requires a high standard of proof. Train companies do not themselves bring prosecutions for fraud; in practice they would need to pass the case to the police if they wanted this offence investigated. The police would view this as a waste of time with basically no chance of conviction.

My recommendation is not to reply to the correspondence. They cannot prosecute you. If they start asking for the money back via civil means (The County Court) please do return to let us know, but we haven't seen any train companies try this before for cases like this.

 

[Joygirl]

The train company cannot prosecute you under the railway bylaws or the Regulation of Railways Act for the offence in October, nor any offences before then. They are out of time; they have six months to bring a prosecution which they have failed to do because they are disorganised and/or lazy. Too bad for them.

It is not for you to provide evidence of innocence. They must provide evidence of your guilt. There is no question of fraud here; you simply didn't know what a railcard was. Fraud is a very serious offence which requires a high standard of proof. Train companies do not themselves bring prosecutions for fraud; in practice they would need to pass the case to the police if they wanted this offence investigated. The police would view this as a waste of time with basically no chance of conviction.

My recommendation is not to reply to the correspondence. They cannot prosecute you. If they start asking for the money back via civil means (The County Court) please do return to let us know, but we haven't seen any train companies try this before for cases like this.

Thank you for this. But I won't be brave enough to ignore this mail as you suggested as I want to apply for my post graduate visa next week and I don't want it to affect me. I was asked to plead guilty and ask to settle out of court. I just want this issue resolved pls. Can u give me any further support if I want to respond to them ?

 

[notmyrealname]

Could you show us what correspondence you've had please? Leave the dates on because they could be important.

When did you receive the letter you attached to post #1 please?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for this. But I won't be brave enough to ignore this mail as you suggested as I want to apply for my post graduate visa next week and I don't want it to affect me. I was asked to plead guilty and ask to settle out of court. I just want this issue resolved pls. Can u give me any further support if I want to respond to them ?

If you are determined to pay back the fares, you could do so if it would make you feel better. You can write apologising for any misunderstanding and offering to pay back the fares, but don't admit any guilt or intent. Do you know how many tickets are involved and the value of those?

 

[Joygirl]

Could you show us what correspondence you've had please? Leave the dates on because they could be important.

When did you receive the letter you attached to post #1 please?

I have not had any correspondence this is the first email I have received about the issue since October 2023 that the incidence occurred. And this email I attached was sent to me yesterday 29/04/2024

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Do you know how many journeys you made claiming the railcard discount? And how long were they (i.e. were they just in and around Birmingham, or were they long distance)? Knowing this may help us understand how keen the railway will be to pursue you.

Sorry - I now see that @AlterEgo has already asked this.

 

[Haywain]

Please I got mail from west mainland train station about an incident that happened since October 2023. I got on the train without having a rail card as an international student I had no idea about what a rail card is. I thought with my student I'd I could use the discount. the staff made me to buy a new ticket and I did it immediately.
Below is a mail received I need your help pls

Was this the only occasion that you used a ticket with a discount applied while not possessing a railcard? And did you subsequently buy a railcard?

 

[Joygirl]

If you are determined to pay back the fares, you could do so if it would make you feel better. You can write apologising for any misunderstanding and offering to pay back the fares, but don't admit any guilt or intent. Do you know how many tickets are involved and the value of those?

It is only one ticket and I was meant to buy a new ticket in the train of about 42 pounds of which I did immediately. This is excluding the 23 pounds I paid for the discounted rail card option. I spent about 65pounds on the journey that day

Do you know how many journeys you made claiming the railcard discount? And how long were they (i.e. were they just in and around Birmingham, or were they long distance)? Knowing this may help us understand how keen the railway will be to pursue you.

Sorry - I now see that @AlterEgo has already asked this.

I

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for this. But I won't be brave enough to ignore this mail as you suggested as I want to apply for my post graduate visa next week and I don't want it to affect me. I was asked to plead guilty and ask to settle out of court. I just want this issue resolved pls. Can u give me any further support if I want to respond to them ?

If you are hard up against you international student visa application deadline for post grad study you may want to get to an 'out of court' settlement about this with them to try and resolve the issue before any legal things happen. People on here can advise you how best to ask them if they will let you settle the matter out of court because it was a misunderstanding on your part (ie what you could write in terms of a reply to this e-mail).

But given your circumstances I think it would be a good idea to talk to one of the staff in your International Student visa team at your university / college to see what they advise in terms of your Visa application and any impact this could have.

Given your circumstances and desire to stay longer in the UK for study then it may be a good idea to respond and actively seek a settlement agreement wit them rather than ignore this / not reply - in my view.

 

[Joygirl]

It is only one ticket and I was meant to buy a new ticket in the train of about 42 pounds of which I did immediately. This is excluding the 23 pounds I paid for the discounted rail card option. I spent about 65pounds on the journey that day


I

Was this the only occasion that you used a ticket with a discount applied while not possessing a railcard? And did you subsequently buy a railcard?

I bought a rail card that same day I got to school. I used the rail card option twice it was on the second occasion I was told about the consequences and I hv not tried it ever again. But I am been questioned for just one of the incidence that happened on 10/10/2023

 

[Fermiboson]

The railway company simply cannot prosecute. They cannot prosecute for fraud over £40.

(This all, of course, assuming that OP’s stated instance is really the only instance of fares irregularity) There is no need for an out of court settlement when there is no way for the court to get involved in the first place - though, of course, we have seen railway companies break many of the statutory protections against prosecution, so it’s not as entirely out of the question as one would hope.

I would suggest taking the letter at face value and ”provide evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened“ (which it hasn’t). Explain that you were stopped for one instance due to ignorance, immediately paid the full fares due, and held a valid railcard since then (attach screenshot for proof), have not been stopped for any irregularities since, and ask them to elaborate on what they think you have done, as you do not know what you have done.

 

[Joygirl]

To whom it may concern

Thank you for your letter dated 29/04/2024.

I would like to offer my apologies for the incident in question. I realised it's my responsibility to have the correct tickets for my journey and as I commute regularly to school, I try to ensure that I do.
On this occasion, I bought a ticket with a railcard option out of ignorance. As an international student and being new to the country, I did not know how the app works and the law. When I was approached by the staff, I immediately bought another ticket to regularise my ticket as I am not one who wants to disobey or break the law.

I asked the staff to explain what a railcard is to me and how it works, but I was directed to my school for proper explanation of which I did, and I got a railcard on that same day to avoid future occurence. I have been using this on my journeys since and I have attached a copy of my railcard to this email as an evidence

I have realised my mistake as this has affected my mental state since this issue. I am truly sorry about my actions.

I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter outside of court and I am more than happy to pay any fares and any costs incurred by you in dealing with this matter

To whom it may concern

Thank you for your letter dated 29/04/2024.

I would like to offer my apologies for the incident in question. I realised it's my responsibility to have the correct tickets for my journey and as I commute regularly to school, I try to ensure that I do.
On this occasion, I bought a ticket with a railcard option out of ignorance. As an international student and being new to the country, I did not know how the app works and the law. When I was approached by the staff, I immediately bought another ticket to regularise my ticket as I am not one who wants to disobey or break the law.

I asked the staff to explain what a railcard is to me and how it works, but I was directed to my school for proper explanation of which I did, and I got a railcard on that same day to avoid future occurence. I have been using this on my journeys since and I have attached a copy of my railcard to this email as an evidence

I have realised my mistake as this has affected my mental state since this issue. I am truly sorry about my actions.

I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter outside of court and I am more than happy to pay any fares and any costs incurred by you in dealing with this matter

This is the reply I have drafted please help me mk corrections

The railway company simply cannot prosecute. They cannot prosecute for fraud over £40.

(This all, of course, assuming that OP’s stated instance is really the only instance of fares irregularity) There is no need for an out of court settlement when there is no way for the court to get involved in the first place - though, of course, we have seen railway companies break many of the statutory protections against prosecution, so it’s not as entirely out of the question as one would hope.

I would suggest taking the letter at face value and ”provide evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened“ (which it hasn’t). Explain that you were stopped for one instance due to ignorance, immediately paid the full fares due, and held a valid railcard since then (attach screenshot for proof), have not been stopped for any irregularities since, and ask them to elaborate on what they think you have done, as you do not know what you have done.

Ok thank you. Please kindly go through my drafted reply for correction

 

[WesternLancer]

To whom it may concern

Thank you for your letter dated 29/04/2024.

I would like to offer my apologies for the incident in question. I realised it's my responsibility to have the correct tickets for my journey and as I commute regularly to school, I try to ensure that I do.
On this occasion, I bought a ticket with a railcard option out of ignorance. As an international student and being new to the country, I did not know how the app works and the law. When I was approached by the staff, I immediately bought another ticket to regularise my ticket as I am not one who wants to disobey or break the law.

I asked the staff to explain what a railcard is to me and how it works, but I was directed to my school for proper explanation of which I did, and I got a railcard on that same day to avoid future occurence. I have been using this on my journeys since and I have attached a copy of my railcard to this email as an evidence

I have realised my mistake as this has affected my mental state since this issue. I am truly sorry about my actions.

I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter outside of court and I am more than happy to pay any fares and any costs incurred by you in dealing with this matter


This is the reply I have drafted please help me mk corrections


Ok thank you. Please kindly go through my drafted reply for correction

IN UK 'school' usually means place of education for people under age of 16 - so probably you should refer to it as 'University' or 'college' (use whichever it calls itself) eg if it is the 'University of Aston' call it 'university' if it is 'Aston College' call it a 'college'.

 

[Joygirl]

IN UK 'school' usually means place of education for people under age of 16 - so probably you should refer to it as 'University' or 'college' (use whichever it calls itself) eg if it is the 'University of Aston' call it 'university' if it is 'Aston College' call it a 'college'.

Ok thank you

 

[Fermiboson]

To whom it may concern,

Thank you for your letter dated 29/04/2024.

I would like to offer my apologies for the incident in question. I realise it is my responsibility to have the correct tickets for my journey. On the occasion in October, I bought a ticket with a railcard option out of ignorance. As an international student, I was new to the country, and did not realise how railcards worked. When I was approached by the staff, I immediately bought another ticket at the full fare when asked as I am not one who wants to disobey or break the law.

I asked the staff to explain what a railcard is to me and how it works, but I was directed to my school for proper explanation of which I did, and I got a railcard on that same day to avoid future occurence. I have been using this on my journeys since and I have attached a copy of my railcard to this email as evidence.

If the railway company considers that there remains any outstanding fares due, I am more than happy to pay any fares and any costs incurred by you in dealing with this matter.

Edited a bit. Aside from grammar, etc. I changed several things - firstly, I removed the bits which say sorry too much because you haven’t done anything (intentionally) wrong. The rest of it is good - explanation of your genuine mistake, etc.

The bit about the mental state is unnecessary, because either way, they won’t care.

I also removed specifically the wording of an out of court settlement because, as I said, the court shouldn’t be involved at all anyways. Best not to give them the idea that they have you on the ropes.

 

[Joygirl]

Edited a bit. Aside from grammar, etc. I changed several things - firstly, I removed the bits which say sorry too much because you haven’t done anything (intentionally) wrong. The rest of it is good - explanation of your genuine mistake, etc.

The bit about the mental state is unnecessary, because either way, they won’t care.

I also removed specifically the wording of an out of court settlement because, as I said, the court shouldn’t be involved at all anyways. Best not to give them the idea that they have you on the ropes.

Thank you very much

 

[Haywain]

I also removed specifically the wording of an out of court settlement because, as I said, the court shouldn’t be involved at all anyways.

I agree with changing the wording, but I think it would be reasonable to point out that two tickets were purchased for that day, and the total paid was in excess of the fare due.

 

[Fermiboson]

I agree with changing the wording, but I think it would be reasonable to point out that two tickets were purchased for that day, and the total paid was in excess of the fare due.

Agreed, that would be useful to point out as well (with amounts quoted?)

 

[GadgetMan]

If the OP doesn't have a history of buying discounted tickets before being caught. Then chances are they think he's continued to buy discounted tickets after being questioned. Which should be sorted once they see the copy of railcard purchased for all subsequent travel.

 

[Joygirl]

I agree with changing the wording, but I think it would be reasonable to point out that two tickets were purchased for that day, and the total paid was in excess of the fare due.

Thank you for this. Do I need to attach like a prove of the payment made from
My bank account statement? Or I should just state the amounts paid without any proof

 

[Fermiboson]

Stating the amounts should probably be fine. Should they ask for proof, you can provide them later on.

 

[Joygirl]

Agreed, that would be useful to point out as well (with amounts quoted?)

Thank you

Stating the amounts should probably be fine. Should they ask for proof, you can provide them later on.

thank you very much

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Given that you paid the correct fare in the end, does the rail company really have a leg to stand on?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Given that you paid the correct fare in the end, does the rail company really have a leg to stand on?

Given that its over 6 months since the incident, no, but the OP wants to clear this up I think to be on the safe side as an international student.

 

[Joygirl]

Given that its over 6 months since the incident, no, but the OP wants to clear this up I think to be on the safe side as an international student.

Ok thank you

 

[AlterEgo]

It is only one ticket and I was meant to buy a new ticket in the train of about 42 pounds of which I did immediately. This is excluding the 23 pounds I paid for the discounted rail card option. I spent about 65pounds on the journey that day


I

So to be clear, this is the only discounted train ticket you have ever purchased online? The email they sent you implies otherwise.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So to be clear, this is the only discounted train ticket you have ever purchased online? The email they sent you implies otherwise.

Higher up the thread, OP says

bought a rail card that same day I got to school. I used the rail card option twice it was on the second occasion I was told about the consequences and I hv not tried it ever again. But I am been questioned for just one of the incidence that happened on 10/10/2023

 

[30907]

I bought a rail card that same day I got to school. I used the rail card option twice it was on the second occasion I was told about the consequences and I hv not tried it ever again. But I am been questioned for just one of the incidence that happened on 10/10/2023

I hope WMT will take note that the incident on 10/10/23 was resolved by paying the full fare and that all subsequent fares have been correctly purchased.

This leaves the first one. I think you must be prepared for them to have noticed this, and to come back to you about it. Please come back (if and) when that happens.

 

[Joygirl]

thanks to everyone the case has been closed. I was told to pay 72 pounds it was proven that I used the railcard twice once before the staff approached me and the day I was approached. I paid 50 pounds for administrative expenses and 22 pounds for the fare.
I appreciate your help and support