Railtour through the Thameslink "core"

[Downthelane]

How feasible would a Charter be via the core?

Is diesel banned?

Would it need an ED?

Will it ever happen?

 

[Kieran1990]

Now that is something that I’ve always thought would be a great one... would steam be banned from the core? Could see Clan Line thundering through St Pancras (low level) with the Belmond Pullman stock!
A class 73 or Class 92 would probably be allowed.
The problem would be how to fit a railtour into the intense frequency between Blackfriars and St Pancras.

 

[MichaelWells]

I've done the Thameslink Core in 73/9s on Diesel and MK2s was very late at night on a Sunday morning though

 

[Cowley]

I've done the Thameslink Core in 73/9s on Diesel and MK2s was very late at night on a Sunday morning though

Nice!

 

[causton]

I think it would have to be at night sometime, and before ETCS is introduced, as a bare minimum!

 

[MarkyT]

I think it would have to be at night sometime, and before ETCS is introduced, as a bare minimum!

The line is also retains conventional signalling with AWS/TPWS at those signals. The signal blocks are typically two to three times longer than the ETCS blocks however so provide reduced capacity when used. That's acceptable as a fall back to keep a one off train with ETCS failure moving during normal daytime operations, but completely non ETCS fitted stock, although possible to run theoretically, will probably only be allowed to be scheduled at the very quietest times.

 

[DarloRich]

I've done the Thameslink Core in 73/9s on Diesel and MK2s was very late at night on a Sunday morning though

If it is painted yellow that doesn't count

 

[spinba11]

I would presume it would be tricky now as the platforms have been raised to provide level access onto the class 700.

 

[MichaelWells]

There was Blue on the locos

 

[John Webb]

Several years ago I was on a Branch Line Society tour which used a 319 ("St Albans City") to go from Bedford down to Herne Hill and return visiting various electrified sidings not normally used by occupied trains. I would have thought a similar trip would still be possible?

 

[cj_1985]

I would haver thought that so long as the train was hauled by a 31, 33/2 or a 73... that it would be possible.. provided a path could be found

 

[Ediswan]

I found this Artist's Impression online showing an HST at Blackfriars:
https://goo.gl/images/cE9PL6

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I found this Artist's Impression online showing an HST at Blackfriars:
https://goo.gl/images/cE9PL6

That is generating a "redirect notice" for me with a warning that "the page may be unsafe"?

 

[Ediswan]

That is generating a "redirect notice" for me with a warning that "the page may be unsafe"?

Curious, that short link worked yesterday. I get a redirect as well today. Here is the link to full article, in which the image is smaller, but still recognisable: https://www.newcivilengineer.com/bl...ee-project-costs-rise-to-600m/8632305.article

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, I see it now - and is that a 158 next to the HST...?

 

[Craigpotter]

Yes it is in Scotrail National Express livery. Only a tad out of place and out of date!

 

[Supercoss]

Currently (despite what the sectional appendix states) only class 73 locos are permited to run on the 'Moorgate' lines between Kentish Town and Farringdon, class 31 and 33/2 although listed as cleared are locally restricted due to height clearance issues since the rigid overhead conductor beam was installed.
Mark 1/converted former Mark 1 emu and early Mark 2 are also prohibited with only Mark 2 F stock permitted
all such moves limited to 15mph (Line Speed 30)with a strictly observed 12'6" height restriction and the overhead line switched off.

Here is a 73 and stock at St Pancras Low Level
http://bed-pan.homestead.com/73964-Stp_-_Copy.JPG

-
GTR Currently has a (non DB Cargo variety) class 66 listed as primary assistance loco to class 700 stock, these not permitted in the 'Core' so even though they have a class 73 (202) this isn't powerful enough so a 73/9 is required.

 

[PeterY]

Probably feasible to do a tour on a 700 but please bring your own cushions.

 

[GW43125]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I recall reading somewhere that all droplight stock is banned from the core in passenger service due to clearance issues, unless some very very specific conditions are met.
Long story short, seems unlikely to happen :/

 

[Supercoss]

That is not strictly true - condition is train manager makes PA announcement not to look out of windows prior to entering section
(and all driving cab windows to be kept closed)
No requirement for window bars etc

 

[43096]

That is not strictly true - condition is train manager makes PA announcement not to look out of windows prior to entering section
(and all driving cab windows to be kept closed)
No requirement for window bars etc

Not even look out of the windows?! I think you mean all windows to be closed. In any case, leaning out of windows tends now to be strictly policed on tours.

 

[tsr]

That is not strictly true - condition is train manager makes PA announcement not to look out of windows prior to entering section
(and all driving cab windows to be kept closed)
No requirement for window bars etc

I believe there is a rule somewhere or other with more specific details about stewards being placed at droplights on certain types of stock.

(One only has to look at the sheer volume of staff needed to ensure door/window safety at events like Steam on the Met to realise that providing and co-ordinating sufficient stewards to meet regulations can turn out to be quite a challenge!)

 

[Crossover]

I believe there is a rule somewhere or other with more specific details about stewards being placed at droplights on certain types of stock.

(One only has to look at the sheer volume of staff needed to ensure door/window safety at events like Steam on the Met to realise that providing and co-ordinating sufficient stewards to meet regulations can turn out to be quite a challenge!)

I believe it is the case with railtours on the Cumbrian Coast, at least over a particular section (Workington to Carlisle possibly rings a bell). I think strictly the windows are meant to be shut with a steward in each vestibule, though a tour I was on some time ago had the droplights open as there was a power fault on the train so we had no air conditioning and the droplights were the only way to get any air into the coach

 

[Bromley boy]

(and all driving cab windows to be kept closed)

Not so sure about that.

I’ve been through the core many times in 319s with cab windows open. Staff are generally trusted around droplights! The flange squeal is terrible and windows tended to end up being closed anyway.

 

[B&W]

Currently (despite what the sectional appendix states) only class 73 locos are permited to run on the 'Moorgate' lines between Kentish Town and Farringdon, class 31 and 33/2 although listed as cleared are locally restricted due to height clearance issues since the rigid overhead conductor beam was installed.
Mark 1/converted former Mark 1 emu and early Mark 2 are also prohibited with only Mark 2 F stock permitted
all such moves limited to 15mph (Line Speed 30)with a strictly observed 12'6" height restriction and the overhead line switched off.

Here is a 73 and stock at St Pancras Low Level
http://bed-pan.homestead.com/73964-Stp_-_Copy.JPG

-
GTR Currently has a (non DB Cargo variety) class 66 listed as primary assistance loco to class 700 stock, these not permitted in the 'Core' so even though they have a class 73 (202) this isn't powerful enough so a 73/9 is required.

How heavy is a 12coach 700 train. 73s can start and pull a lot but you just do not go very fast.

 

[louis97]

The line is also retains conventional signalling with AWS/TPWS at those signals. The signal blocks are typically two to three times longer than the ETCS blocks however so provide reduced capacity when used. That's acceptable as a fall back to keep a one off train with ETCS failure moving during normal daytime operations, but completely non ETCS fitted stock, although possible to run theoretically, will probably only be allowed to be scheduled at the very quietest times.

From what I have seen pretty much all the ETCS blocks fall around stations, that is they provide benefits to the platform re-occupation. They break up sections between colour light signalling to allow trains running with ETCS to effectively get closer together and allow platforms to be re-occupied quicker. Therefore there should not be an issue providing any such tour did not stop at any intermediate station, although there could be if the tour is forced to stop because of a train ahead.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How heavy is a 12coach 700 train.

The tare weight for a 700/1 is 399.6 tonnes.

 

[D365]

I would presume it would be tricky now as the platforms have been raised to provide level access onto the class 700.

No need to stop on the way?

 

[Supercoss]

I checked the Appendix of sectionalness for route specific instructions: two apply
1)"Due to restricted clearance the driving cab windows on all units must be kept closed when passing through the tunnels situated between Kentish Town and Farringdon station"
2)"Due to restricted clearance traincrew must not put their heads out of the train while passing over the route"
"Owing to restricted window box clearance along the route passenger trains composed of stock with opening windows (other than those of the ventilator type) are prohibited from traversing this section of track except where special authority is granted. When authority is granted for passenger trains the following conditions apply:
1) the train running must be published in special traffic notice
2) To mitigate the risk of limited clearance to passengers while passing along the tunnels along the route
a) all passengers must be advised by public address AND IN WRITING not to lean out of windows
b) the train must be staffed by a train manager and stewards who will be briefed by the train manager
c) prior to passing through the tunnels on this route an announcement must be made using the public address system to instruct all passengers not to lean out of the windows during the passage of the train through the tunnels. Stewards must pass through all vehicles and repeat the instruction to all passengers.
=
so very much' do able' if the Local or Area Operations Manager grants authority