Railway Enthusiasts at Stations - is a clearer policy needed?

[Robertj21a]

I'm not really surprised that it's most probably the use of a tripod that brings attention to the photographer. To me, a tripod signifies either 'long term' and/or or commercial. If somebody is only going to be taking a photo for a brief period, but needs a form of camera support, those monopods can be just as effective, and less obvious.

 

[6Gman]

It is written in the webpage I referenced. See where it mentions checking in with the Duty Station Manager (The person in charge of the station).

The webpage uses words like "advice", "guidance" and "please". If the words were "instructions", "requirements" and "you must" then that would change their meaning. But they aren't and they don't.

 

[6Gman]

Just a thought about Snow Hill. Given much of the platform is under buildings I wonder if there's a concern that flash will be used?

 

[fowler9]

I've been lucky and never had a problem. Only time I ever asked for permission was at Lime Street to get pictures of the new platforms 8&9 through the barriers and the other was at Aguas Callientes in Peru. At Lime Street they were fine, at Aguas Callientes they looked at me funny and asked me to be quick.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely. You are on someone elses property so learn some basic social skills towards those entrusted with its safe operation.

The same advice could quite well be directed at some railway staff. The threads on Blackpool North give a prime example of this.

It is not staff's job to be harassing people and making up their own rules. Wasting ten minutes picking up an unnecessary argument with someone over a made-up "rule" isn't in anyone's job description as far as I know, and whilst engaging in this the member of staff is either neglecting their actual duty, or perhaps doesn't need to be there in the first place. I have no issue with pulling people up when acting unsafely, or clarifying behaviour if there are genuine concerns about security. However in all cases it should be done politely, just like when dealing with any other customer. Staff don't have the right to kick someone out of a station or make their life a misery just because they don't like someone's face.

In the case of London Underground, staff telling people they can't take photographs simply demonstrates they haven't read a publication that their job requires them to be conversant with.

 

[brick60000]

Absolutely. You are on someone elses property so learn some basic social skills towards those entrusted with its safe operation.

As said by @bramling, this is very much a two way approach - I've no problem being perfectly polite (and always would be) to station staff, just the same as I would expect passengers to be towards me where I work. The issue arises when you get certain members of staff being rather, uhm, stroppy, to say the least!

Exactly this.
There’s nothing wrong with any of it but it says you should inform someone, sign in, get a pass, whatever they expect you to do locally, people should help by doing this where possible.
They’re not going to chase after people taking a picture of their friend next to a train on their phone but setting up a tripod and staying there for an afternoon is different. As we see here, nobody really has a major problem providing you follow protocol.

It is this that is for me the issue - whatever they expect you to do locally. How are people supposed to know this? It is for this reason I wish there was a more uniform policy!

The same advice could quite well be directed at some railway staff. The threads on Blackpool North give a prime example of this.

It is not staff's job to be harassing people and making up their own rules. Wasting ten minutes picking up an unnecessary argument with someone over a made-up "rule" isn't in anyone's job description as far as I know, and whilst engaging in this the member of staff is either neglecting their actual duty, or perhaps doesn't need to be there in the first place. I have no issue with pulling people up when acting unsafely, or clarifying behaviour if there are genuine concerns about security. However in all cases it should be done politely, just like when dealing with any other customer. Staff don't have the right to kick someone out of a station or make their life a misery just because they don't like someone's face.

In the case of London Underground, staff telling people they can't take photographs simply demonstrates they haven't read a publication that their job requires them to be conversant with.

100% this!

 

[infobleep]

I remember now being asked at Brighton station recently whether or not I was photographing or filming. Maybe staff get more jumpy if they see enthusiasts with camcorders...?

I'm sure there are ways to film at stations without people noticing. I doubt people who really want to harm.us would do their servailance so openly.

I got off a train at Wimbledon yesterday and I was fascinated by the water running off the roof into the train. It was getting a free wash! So I started to photograph it but it was leaving so photographs not quite as good as I wanted. I started to go up the steps then turned around as I knew another train was due in sortly and I had time. So i took some photos without that train and then when the train came in. I then went to another platform and took some more. Then I continued my journey.

I once got told at Portsmouth and Southsea that I needed permission to take photos. I was in the train and photographing the station clock for the time, as my camera time was out. The member of staff had to board the train to tell me, thus delaying the trains departure.

Guard wasn't aware of such rules.

There is a notice on the bus I'm on which says Reporting anything unusual won't hurt you. Are train photographer enuthists unusual and if I see one at a major railway station, should I report them to staff just incase? I seriously doubt it.

 

[GrahamD83]

I have only recently started 'spotting' at stations and I did wonder if it would be an issue. I have been to Durham several times without catching a train as there are no longer barriers without being questioned. Recently I travelled to Newcastle station via an open return ticket so I could be on the platform side of the barriers and I had a valid ticked for my return journey should I be questioned.

I did try my best to blend in with waiting passengers, although I did walk to the platform ends a couple of times to note the loco number of VTEC's HSTs.

I did feel a little suspicious at times as I kept passing the same members of VTEC staff who were pottering about the platforms but no one questioned me. I haven't got into photography yet but took a couple of photos on my phone of a Scotrail 156 and another of Class 67 parked in a siding and I did this discreetly. The day in question was St Patricks Day and the station was full of revellers posing for group photos with their friends before going off drinking.

For future reference is it wise to find someone in charge to ask or just get on with it? I don't plan on taking large camera equipment or filming the trains, just the good old fashioned ticking off train numbers.

Also are there guidelines for unstaffed stations? Could a train driver/guard report you for taking a photo of their train?

 

[Dhassell]

I have only recently started 'spotting' at stations and I did wonder if it would be an issue. I have been to Durham several times without catching a train as there are no longer barriers without being questioned. Recently I travelled to Newcastle station via an open return ticket so I could be on the platform side of the barriers and I had a valid ticked for my return journey should I be questioned.

I did try my best to blend in with waiting passengers, although I did walk to the platform ends a couple of times to note the loco number of VTEC's HSTs.

I did feel a little suspicious at times as I kept passing the same members of VTEC staff who were pottering about the platforms but no one questioned me. I haven't got into photography yet but took a couple of photos on my phone of a Scotrail 156 and another of Class 67 parked in a siding and I did this discreetly. The day in question was St Patricks Day and the station was full of revellers posing for group photos with their friends before going off drinking.

For future reference is it wise to find someone in charge to ask or just get on with it? I don't plan on taking large camera equipment or filming the trains, just the good old fashioned ticking off train numbers.

Also are there guidelines for unstaffed stations? Could a train driver/guard report you for taking a photo of their train?

Personally I would carry on with your business as usual until someone comes up to you and asks what you are doing, as I said in an earlier post, most staff have common sense and don't bother you, most will come down on their security checks and say hello!
For unstaffed stations, Very unlikely you are going to get reported to anyone by driver/guard unless you are looking seriously odd, taking a photo or writing down numbers doesn't really look suspicious to train crew who probably see it all the time!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

No problem from unstaffed stations as far as I know.

Very, very unlikely of a driver reporting you unless you are in a dangerous position (e.g. over the yellow line) or pointing a flash in his direction. More likely to get a wave or a blast from the horn

On large busy stations, it often depends on the TOC, time of day etc. It is usually good practice to make yourself known to the station manager who can then inform staff of your presence; I personally have found some managers questioning why I'm even asking and it has been some time since I've last been asked to sign in anywhere.

Possibly, my face is well known and staff are reassured that I'm not acting suspiciously or going to do anything stupid. I have been on and around the railway for a long time and carry an air of confidence (along with a big camera - but no tripod). I usually go out photographing with a purpose, i.e. I am expecting a particular train and will snap other trains whilst I'm waiting

If you "feel suspicious" or act in a hesitant manner then it might be that staff see you lack confidence and an easy target.

 

[brick60000]

No problem from unstaffed stations as far as I know.

Very, very unlikely of a driver reporting you unless you are in a dangerous position (e.g. over the yellow line) or pointing a flash in his direction. More likely to get a wave or a blast from the horn

On large busy stations, it often depends on the TOC, time of day etc. It is usually good practice to make yourself known to the station manager who can then inform staff of your presence; I personally have found some managers questioning why I'm even asking and it has been some time since I've last been asked to sign in anywhere.

Possibly, my face is well known and staff are reassured that I'm not acting suspiciously or going to do anything stupid. I have been on and around the railway for a long time and carry an air of confidence (along with a big camera - but no tripod). I usually go out photographing with a purpose, i.e. I am expecting a particular train and will snap other trains whilst I'm waiting

If you "feel suspicious" or act in a hesitant manner then it might be that staff see you lack confidence and an easy target.

What approach do you adopt (or anyone, in fact) when speaking to staff about your planned photography? Is it a "can I take photos" or a "letting you know I am taking photos"?

 

[GrahamD83]

Thanks for the advice people.

I'm planning similar trips to Carlisle, Leeds and York in the near future (going by train and staying inside the barriers), has anyone had any issues at these stations.

 

[_toommm_]

The amount of spotters you see at Doncaster every day is definitely noticeable - there's normally two groups at the London and of platform three and platform four. It might just be the TOC (Virgin EC) but I've never seen anyone discouraged - then again it might be expected at Doncaster as at the moment we have IEPs passing through, lots of freight and lots of HSTs and 91s.

 

[bramling]

Thanks for the advice people.

I'm planning similar trips to Carlisle, Leeds and York in the near future (going by train and staying inside the barriers), has anyone had any issues at these stations.

Carlisle should be no problem at all, staff are unlikely to bat an eyelid there IME. Unless things have changed York is unlikely to be an issue either.

Leeds could be an issue especially if you’re hanging around in places that stand out, although the worst that’s likely to happen is you get asked to sign in.

One of the silliest things about the whole enthusiasts on stations issue is how things differ from place to place. Again this merely goes to demonstrate how it’s more down to individual staff and their preferences rather than any actual railway policy. Ironically it’s quite often the small stations that can prove problematic - some silly member of staff that thinks Wadhurst or Parbold is their own little empire (to quote real examples). Funny how the self-same staff will likely be nowhere to be seen if there’s, say, teenagers smoking on the platform.

 

[bearhugger]

Thanks for the advice people.

I'm planning similar trips to Carlisle, Leeds and York in the near future (going by train and staying inside the barriers), has anyone had any issues at these stations.

I've never had any issues at Carlisle, apart from one time I was a bit too close to the platform edge and got a warning whistle from a member of platform staff that a pendolino was approaching behind me. At York, I went to the infromation desk with a member of VTEC staff attending it, and asked if i needed to sign in or anything as i was planning to spot & take photos for a couple of hours and he was very pleasant and said something along the lines of "Oh there's no need for that, it's an open station.". Only done spotting at Leeds whilst waiting for my next train so never had any issues. I also use an app (https://spotlog.org/)on my phone and tablet to record numbers so not sure if that makes any difference to someone holding notepad & pencil?

 

[rg177]

I've rarely ever had a problem.

Last issue I had was when I snapped a picture of a unit I was about to board at Liverpool Central- member of staff stormed on board after me, declared that it was "illegal because it's underground and there's anti-terrorism laws in place right now" and delayed the train while I blankly nodded at her and told her I was getting on a train and not coming back which didn't seem to quite satisfy her.

And of course we had the Luton incident where a staff member couldn't be bothered to help an elderly woman carry her case up the stairs but had ample time to stand and argue with me about a single picture i'd taken while waiting for a train

On train staff on the other hand are often above and beyond- such as a Southern guard that saw me grab a photo of his 313 at Southbourne in the fading evening light and invited me into the back cab as i boarded for a chat and to get some shots of the sun hitting the track! Absolutely top bloke.

 

[bramling]

And of course we had the Luton incident where a staff member couldn't be bothered to help an elderly woman carry her case up the stairs but had ample time to stand and argue with me about a single picture i'd taken while waiting for a train

Thus proving a point I made elsewhere that staff hassling enthusiasts are quite likely to be neglecting their actual job description.

As for Liverpool Central, funny how London Underground allow people to take pictures - and unlike Liverpool have been subject to multiple terrorist attacks.

It's actually rather pathetic that some staff feel the need to make up their own rules and procedures to make themselves feel important. I wonder if there's a correlation with being not very competent at their actual role?

 

[HOOVER29]

A couple of weeks ago I was on Vauxhall station enjoying snapping the class 707’s when I was approached & asked what I was doing. I told the assistant & at first got the feeling he couldn’t be bothered with whatever I said but after continuously being polite he seemed to back down & we went to the supervisors office. A brief chat about do’s & dont’s and they were ok with me. Being polite helps.
However, later at London Bridge a female assistant wasn’t having any of it, in fact I got the impression she was more interested in Facebook on her mobile as she shouted at me in poor English from another platform. I didn’t much care for the new station design so I turned my back to her which seemed to shut her up & caught a service to East Croydon where the staff were very polite as were I have to say the ones at all the other stations I visited especially the ones at the South Eastern platforms at St Pancras.

 

[bramling]

A couple of weeks ago I was on Vauxhall station enjoying snapping the class 707’s when I was approached & asked what I was doing. I told the assistant & at first got the feeling he couldn’t be bothered with whatever I said but after continuously being polite he seemed to back down & we went to the supervisors office. A brief chat about do’s & dont’s and they were ok with me. Being polite helps.
However, later at London Bridge a female assistant wasn’t having any of it, in fact I got the impression she was more interested in Facebook on her mobile as she shouted at me in poor English from another platform.

Shouting from another platform is extremely rude and poor customer service. Ignore, then if the staff member bothers to take it further, explain how you're deaf and how her behaviour wouldn't impress her manager should the footage of it make its way to a newspaper.

 

[island]

Whilst it may be obvious that Clapham is major

Clapham station, with passenger usage of 7,442 in the last reported year, is hardly major. :P

 

[DJames]

The amount of spotters you see at Doncaster every day is definitely noticeable - there's normally two groups at the London and of platform three and platform four. It might just be the TOC (Virgin EC) but I've never seen anyone discouraged - then again it might be expected at Doncaster as at the moment we have IEPs passing through, lots of freight and lots of HSTs and 91s.

That reminds me of Stafford, the few times I've been so far, there's always been at least a few others at the end of the platforms with me, but I guess it's expected there too since you have a lot of freight passing through regularly.

 

[pt_mad]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but it does seem to make a difference when a station is ticket barriered. Spotters would need to explain themselves to staff in order to walk in from outside and are then making their intentions known as per the official required guidelines at larger locations. At open stations perhaps it's not as strict at the moment as any Tom dick or Harry could get onto the platforms to wave goodbye to uncle John.

 

[Harbornite]

explain how you're deaf and how her behaviour wouldn't impress her manager should the footage of it make its way to a newspaper.

I wouldn't recommend lying about being deaf, I haven't seen any posts where Hoover29 has claimed to be deaf. However, if that is the case then my comment is obviously not applicable.

 

[Bromley boy]

However, later at London Bridge a female assistant wasn’t having any of it, in fact I got the impression she was more interested in Facebook on her mobile as she shouted at me in poor English from another platform. I didn’t much care for the new station design so I turned my back to her which seemed to shut her up & caught a service to East Croydon where the staff were very polite as were I have to say the ones at all the other stations I visited especially the ones at the South Eastern platforms at St Pancras.

This is disappointing.

I’m surprised by that as it’s very common to see spotters at the country end of the London Bridge (high level) platforms as they get a good view of the approach to the station. They are a regular fixture and don't cause anyone concern.

What has caused issues there in the past has been tourists (rather than spotters) leaning backwards over the p9 platform edge to try to take shots of the shard, as trains are approaching.

 

[birchesgreen]

I think based on people's anecdotes whats needed arn't clearer rules for spotters but for staff to be properly trained

 

[bearhugger]

Just on my way back from a couple of hours spotting at York. On arrival I went to the Virgin "information cube" to double check whether I needed to sign in or anything. Was told no need to sign in and given a few safety instructions along the lines of "just obey all the signs, don't go over the yellow line, don't use flash photography at oncoming trains and stay safe.". Quite a sensible and pragmatic approach I think.

 

[bramling]

I think based on people's anecdotes whats needed arn't clearer rules for spotters but for staff to be properly trained

Sums it up perfectly. Likewise consistency between stations, and in particular dealing with staff who feel they have the right to make up their own rules and procedures based on what they do and don't like, or who find that going round hassling people for made-up reasons is more exciting than their actual job description.

 

[CentralTrainer]

Are you just copying and pasting your hilarious stock rants from your hatred of station staff and folding bikes again?

 

[maire23]

That reminds me of Stafford, the few times I've been so far, there's always been at least a few others at the end of the platforms with me, but I guess it's expected there too since you have a lot of freight passing through regularly.

I’m currently sat at Stafford waiting for a connection to Lime Street, I’m sharing the waiting room with a spotter, there’s a chap outside with a camera on a tripod and a few others milling around. I do envy their deviation today though as it’s pelting down

 

[alxndr]

Sums it up perfectly. Likewise consistency between stations, and in particular dealing with staff who feel they have the right to make up their own rules and procedures based on what they do and don't like, or who find that going round hassling people for made-up reasons is more exciting than their actual job description.

Clearer rules, distributed to both public and staff is precisely what would increase consistency between stations.