Railway Terminology / Wording

[Andy873]

Thanks to @6Gman who directed me to the WTT reprint website, I've been able to look at some special traffic notices (STN's) from the 1950's.

The STN's do however throw up certain phrases and words I'm not familiar with:

Pigeon special? Noted as an extra train. Was this for taking racing pigeons somewhere to be let free and raced?

Circuit stock? This is used several times when talking about extra passenger trains. Are we talking here about carriages used on a daily basis or some of those that were kept back for peak holiday / the summer period.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes pigeon specials were for racing pigeons, used vans with lots of boxes in them, and station staff at the start point would open the flaps to let the birds out.

Quite a bit of info here

Pigeon traffic - Steve Banks

Railway historical research (all companies) especially workings on the LNER and BR. Railway modelling of coaches and carriages on a professional basis.

www.steve-banks.org

 

[Andy873]

@Snow1964 That's a great link (and a good read). I especially like the photos of the pigeons taking to the sky.

Now for circuit stock anyone?

 

[Taunton]

Circuits were indeed daily workings for carriages, which the vehicles themselves were assigned to (and sometimes actually branded as such on their ends). They were not necessarily the newest, as the approach seemed more confined to local and branch trains. The circuit defined which trains around the system, in sequence, the carriages performed in the day. In typical railway style there were internal booklets produced showing this. All as opposed to general purpose or "loose" vehicles, around the system and marshalled together and used as required. Nothing to stop these being added to a circuit train if required on the day.

 

[Rescars]

Circuits were indeed daily workings for carriages, which the vehicles themselves were assigned to (and sometimes actually branded as such on their ends). They were not necessarily the newest, as the approach seemed more confined to local and branch trains. The circuit defined which trains around the system, in sequence, the carriages performed in the day. In typical railway style there were internal booklets produced showing this. All as opposed to general purpose or "loose" vehicles, around the system and marshalled together and used as required. Nothing to stop these being added to a circuit train if required on the day.

As Taunton says, circuits were daily workings of carriage sets. The concept was certainly applied to main line stock in the 1970s. Catering staff were rostered to specified circuits. That meant the various crews found themselves operating the correct buffets and kitchens. If you are cooking breakfast for 60 passengers, it's reassuring to know you'll find what you left in the fridge the day before!

 

[Gloster]

Circuits could last several days with the set of coaches stabling overnight at outlying locations. They were usually designed so as to get the set back to a major depot, not necessarily it’s ‘home’ one, at suitable intervals for heavy cleaning and such maintenance as took place. Each diagram was (usually) for one day and would show the formation of the set, its starting point and the various trains, including any ecs moves, that it made. At the end it would often say something like ‘Work Turn XYZ following day’.

 

[eldomtom2]

Yes pigeon specials were for racing pigeons, used vans with lots of boxes in them, and station staff at the start point would open the flaps to let the birds out.

Quite a bit of info here

Pigeon traffic - Steve Banks

Railway historical research (all companies) especially workings on the LNER and BR. Railway modelling of coaches and carriages on a professional basis.

www.steve-banks.org

Note that Steve Banks makes rather a lot of authoritative statements that turn out to be based on fairly little evidence - see this thread on the LNER Encyclopedia Forum criticising in particular his claim that pigeon traffic was not considered in the design of vans:

I came across this again when searching for any images that would answer the recent question about the unusual juxtaposition of axleguard and springs on the Dia. 120 Pigeon Van. Since these were posted I have been fortunate to be supplied with photographed copies of the original Darlington works drawing (for the body) which makes it absolutely clear that the shelves were specifically designed to carry pigeon baskets - the dimensions of the baskets are clearly stated on the drawing. I'm sure that 'Dave' will not mind me posting an extract which proves this beyond doubt.


I sincerely hope that the second volume of the 'LNER Passenger Trains and Formations...' book does not perpetuate the erroneous statements made above...

 

[Taunton]

The LNER was significantly involved in pigeon traffic, as the "sport" is strongly focused on South Yorkshire, although the trains could go anywhere - down to Somerset was common and apparently sometimes they even went to France. I believe the released pigeons beat the ECS back to Doncaster etc by a considerable margin!

The "Pigeon Vans", a seemingly common LNER type, were however more a General Utility Van that just suited some being laid out for pigeon boxes, as much as other merchandise. Solid sides, with small windows just high up at the roof line to prevent those on the platform seeing inside. Construction continued into BR days - I think they were the last vehicles to be constructed new at Stratford works, which may make them the last rail vehicles to be built in London..

 

[Gloster]

I think that the pigeons were normally carried in wicker baskets. Once they got to the station where they were to be released, the baskets were lined up on a platform and at the signal from the pigeon club’s official or the stationmaster the staff would race along opening the lids. On occasions when they had a lot of baskets I was told that anybody available would be roped in, even local schoolboys who would be given a bob or two. One trick was apparently to undo all the straps beforehand, but put something weighty (something that there is usually no lack of around a station) on top as it was important to get all the baskets open as near to simultaneously as possible: it is much quicker to throw the weight off and flick the lid open than have to unstrap them all one at a time.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks all, I now understand what circuit stock is.

Regarding pigeons:
I was reading yesterday a list of pigeon specials from 1937. From East Lancs over the summer period several hundred boxes of pigeons were take all over - Bath, Bristol, Gloucester, Jersey and even across to France.

Another question please:
Roadside stations? - These are sometimes listed in the parcel train workings. That is van 1 Roadside stations, van 2 parcels for a couple of towns etc.

 

[Gloster]

Roadside station was probably the L&Y (or LMS) term for all the minor intermediate stations on a line that didn’t have enough parcels traffic to justify their own dedicated van. It could also apply to goods and passenger traffic. Basically, just a minor intermediate station with low levels of the relevant traffic. I think that it is quite possible that a station might be seen as a roadside station for, say, parcels if it had minimal such traffic, but not for passenger if it had heavy passenger traffic.

It is not worth having a dedicated parcels van for each station: it is a complete waste if you have a whole van with only half a dozen items in it. You would have a van, known on some lines as a road van, handling all the parcels for a series of stations. The parcels would be loaded in particular parts of the van for specific stations, often the last stations to be dealt with in the far corners and the first stations’ traffic by the doors.

 

[30907]

Roadside station was probably the L&Y (or LMS) term for all the minor intermediate stations on a line that didn’t have enough parcels traffic to justify their own dedicated van. It could also apply to goods and passenger traffic. Basically, just a minor intermediate station with low levels of the relevant traffic. I think that it is quite possible that a station might be seen as a roadside station for, say, parcels if it had minimal such traffic, but not for passenger if it had heavy passenger traffic.

It is not worth having a dedicated parcels van for each station: it is a complete waste if you have a whole van with only half a dozen items in it. You would have a van, known on some lines as a road van, handling all the parcels for a series of stations. The parcels would be loaded in particular parts of the van for specific stations, often the last stations to be dealt with in the far corners and the first stations’ traffic by the doors.

Slightly OT, but the LSW had a "Road Box" goods brake van which was used for small consignments. The same principle applied - the vehicle stayed with the train rather than being detached for unloading.

 

[Andy873]

Roadside station was probably the L&Y (or LMS) term for all the minor intermediate stations on a line that didn’t have enough parcels traffic to justify their own dedicated van. It could also apply to goods and passenger traffic. Basically, just a minor intermediate station with low levels of the relevant traffic. I think that it is quite possible that a station might be seen as a roadside station for, say, parcels if it had minimal such traffic, but not for passenger if it had heavy passenger traffic.

Thanks for confirming what I suspected.

The instructions for parcels workings (LMS 1938) lists the number of vans for each train. Almost all of these van types are listed as CBR - am I right in thinking CBR were fully braked vans with a gangway?

 

[cadder toad]

CBR was the LMS code for a passenger full brake with gangway, a BG as we would know today (if they're not extinct)

?C = corridor, B = bogied, R = brake?

 

[6Gman]

Thanks all, I now understand what circuit stock is.

Regarding pigeons:
I was reading yesterday a list of pigeon specials from 1937. From East Lancs over the summer period several hundred boxes of pigeons were take all over - Bath, Bristol, Gloucester, Jersey and even across to France.

Another question please:
Roadside stations? - These are sometimes listed in the parcel train workings. That is van 1 Roadside stations, van 2 parcels for a couple of towns etc.

I think I may have read the same document!

The scale of the operation really was massive.

 

[Andy873]

The scale of the operation really was massive.

Certainly looks that way!

What does T mean anyone? - "9.20 am Colne to Blackpool Central, 6 bogies including circuit stock and 2T"

 

[Gloster]

Certainly looks that way!

What does T mean anyone? - "9.20 am Colne to Blackpool Central, 6 bogies including circuit stock and 2T"

T could be the standard abbreviation for a Bogie Third (non-corridor), but I can’t be definite that it is in this case.

 

[6Gman]

T could be the standard abbreviation for a Bogie Third (non-corridor), but I can’t be definite that it is in this case.

I think that is almost certainly correct.

 

[30907]

I think that is almost certainly correct.

List of LMS codes here:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1848286062

I would guess that in the case quoted, the "circuit stock" was a 4-set of some description.