Ramps & On Board Supervisors

[Ivor]

Yesterday I had an issue when no sooner did I lay a ramp on the accessible carriage for a disabled passenger that the doors closed with ‘my door’ constantly buffering against the ramp back & forth trying to close as the passenger negotiated the ramp to board.

When a train approaches I stand with the ramp upright so the driver & hopefully the OBS sees me & I carry out the procedure as swiftly & safely as possible.

As all this was happening I looked along the platform to spot the OBS but couldn’t see one, this was very disconcerting for both the passenger & myself as the doors were banging on the ramp.

As I completed the task totally stressed out the OBS got off at the front of the train to obviously see why there was a problem with the door, saw me now folding the ramp to re-secure & put back & then because the door had now closed hopped back on & the train departed.

My question....is the OBS supposed to ‘step off’ on to the platform at all stations? I’m on a Southern route & I must say the majority do but starting to notice more than a few are not with also some disabled passengers telling me when the station is unmanned they are often ‘ignored’ as an OBS doesn’t get off the train.

Most of the OBS staff are very helpful & will immediately ask destination of the passenger but in addition I always call ahead to the arriving station so they are met but again told by some passengers that need to be met that even arriving no staff are there but the OBS is a ‘safety net if aware.

 

[Gems]

I would assume from the human perspective that if you have no need anymore to be a part of platform duties, Platform duties will over time be degraded to an after thought.

 

[Ivor]

I would assume from the human perspective that if you have no need anymore to be a part of platform duties, Platform duties will over time be degraded to an after thought.

Sorry me being thick...do you mean platform duties will disappear all together & OBS staff will be the only ones to carry out accessible boarding & disembarking?

 

[Gems]

Sorry me being thick...do you mean platform duties will disappear all together & OBS staff will be the only ones to carry out accessible boarding & disembarking?

I have no idea how Southern work. But it would make sense to me for the man on the train to be responsible for disabled passenger boardings. I mean if he isn't, and he doesn't know a wheelchair is on board, who's going to know to get them off?
To me the whole issue is just a by-product of a very ill thought out destruction of a railway grade by those who either didn't care, or couldn't relate.

 

[Surreytraveller]

OBSs are supposed to step off the train to see if there are any passengers requiring assistance

 

[LowLevel]

It's an inevitable consequence of GTR's decision to downgrade their traincrew. Guards worked on platforms. OBSs do it as an afterthought. On Greater Anglia with their new trains the guards will only step on to the platform if they need to, as things currently stand.

All well and good at manned platforms but works much less effectively elsewhere.

 

[king_walnut]

I was a Southern OBS for 2 years.

OBS's must step off onto the platform at each station with their key on to check if anyone needs assistance in boarding. Having the key on means they have control of that door and the train cannot depart until they have taken the key off. It also stops the door repeatedly trying to close when the ramp is down.

In this case I'm afraid the OBS was not doing his job correctly.

 

[Ivor]

I was a Southern OBS for 2 years.

OBS's must step off onto the platform at each station with their key on to check if anyone needs assistance in boarding. Having the key on means they have control of that door and the train cannot depart until they have taken the key off. It also stops the door repeatedly trying to close when the ramp is down.

In this case I'm afraid the OBS was not doing his job correctly.

I thought it ‘made sense’ that they step off, I no sooner got the ramp in place & the doors were closing.

Thanks for a definitive answer from someone who has done the job with Southern.

 

[paul1609]

I was a Southern OBS for 2 years.

OBS's must step off onto the platform at each station with their key on to check if anyone needs assistance in boarding. Having the key on means they have control of that door and the train cannot depart until they have taken the key off. It also stops the door repeatedly trying to close when the ramp is down.

In this case I'm afraid the OBS was not doing his job correctly.

In fairness I regularly travel cross country on Southern and I can't recall having seen an OBS not carrying out this routine. Id always imagined that the Interlock was recorded on OTMR.
On Class 395 Southeastern Platform staff insert (what I assume is a standard T Key) key next to the door when providing assistance, which holds the door open and prevents the interlock.

 

[pompeyfan]

The issue with the OBS model is that if there is no platform staff and the OBS is anywhere other than the accessible area where the wheelchair passenger is boarding, then when the OBS moves down to assist someone, they risk being left behind, as does the person needing assistance. I assume it’s not possible to have 2 guards keys on at one time on a 377 unit, which means as they walk down the platform, it’s likely the driver will begin the dispatch process.

It sounds like the driver should also take some blame for this, as clearly they were trying to close the doors while there was someone or something in the doors, did you try the ‘emergency stop’ hand signal aimed towards the DOO cameras?

 

[king_walnut]

The doors will close automatically after 15 seconds to retain the climate control within the train, and if there is something blocking them they will keep trying to close. You can stop them trying to close by pressing the open button. The driver almost certainly wouldn't have pressed close doors if he saw there was a ramp going down.

 

[pompeyfan]

The doors will close automatically after 15 seconds to retain the climate control within the train, and if there is something blocking them they will keep trying to close. You can stop them trying to close by pressing the open button. The driver almost certainly wouldn't have pressed close doors if he saw there was a ramp going down.

sorry, I interpreted that the doors were attempting to close so the train could leave, not the auto close function.

 

[LowLevel]

The doors will close automatically after 15 seconds to retain the climate control within the train, and if there is something blocking them they will keep trying to close. You can stop them trying to close by pressing the open button. The driver almost certainly wouldn't have pressed close doors if he saw there was a ramp going down.

Having had to deal with similar class 170s I can vouch for what a pain the doors can be when deploying ramps. Many types of train have features obvious or otherwise to disable automatic door closure but Turbostar/Electrostar units don't. We used to resort to putting a newspaper or similar in front of the floor level obstacle detector to keep them from closing.

 

[Ivor]

The issue with the OBS model is that if there is no platform staff and the OBS is anywhere other than the accessible area where the wheelchair passenger is boarding, then when the OBS moves down to assist someone, they risk being left behind, as does the person needing assistance. I assume it’s not possible to have 2 guards keys on at one time on a 377 unit, which means as they walk down the platform, it’s likely the driver will begin the dispatch process.

It sounds like the driver should also take some blame for this, as clearly they were trying to close the doors while there was someone or something in the doors, did you try the ‘emergency stop’ hand signal aimed towards the DOO cameras?

I’m gobsmacked that you have mentioned ‘emergency stop’ hand signal, yes I know how to stop trains in the event of a track, person at risk scenario but I didn’t know if this hand signal you mention I am ashamed to say.

I have on a previous thread had advice from you all ‘out there’ with advice re H&S as I am agency staff & although we get a few basics it is very apparent the poor training or lack of it we get.

On the rare occasion I have contact with a Southern employee I am forever asking questions & getting clarification on things, I know why now some TOC staff think the worse of agency staff & rightly so but most of us want to do the job to the highest standard & is another downfall of ‘solo working’ & zero hour contracts.

I don’t know who to point the finger at re training, the Agency or GTR? The agency I suppose if train fully (& they should) would charge Southern for this & I can only assume Southern wouldn’t be prepared to foot the bill?

The more I see in the 1.5 years working on the railway the more concerned I become not only for passenger safety but my own not just on H&S but working alone some of the idiots I have had to put up with as no doubt many of you have too (I know there is another thread on the go re trouble in the Guildford area)

 

[Ivor]

sorry, I interpreted that the doors were attempting to close so the train could leave, not the auto close function.

All the doors closed & the accessible one was also trying to close, as I was also trying to ensure the passenger actually boarded & I assume the train was getting ready to depart.

Frankly I wouldn’t want to find myself in this position again as I could see the passenger was perturbed & I was reassuring him as he slowly went up the ramp & the ramp was getting thumped by the doors attempting to close.

 

[pompeyfan]

All the doors closed & the accessible one was also trying to close, as I was also trying to ensure the passenger actually boarded & I assume the train was getting ready to depart.

Frankly I wouldn’t want to find myself in this position again as I could see the passenger was perturbed & I was reassuring him as he slowly went up the ramp & the ramp was getting thumped by the doors attempting to close.

did you happen to notice if the body side indicator/hazard lights had extinguished on the other coaches?

 

[Ivor]

did you happen to notice if the body side indicator/hazard lights had extinguished on the other coaches?

I didn’t notice as in hindsight ‘in the moment’ I was very concerned about how things were panning out & I was concerned about boarding the passenger as he now had his mobility scooter on the ramp.

 

[pompeyfan]

I didn’t notice as in hindsight ‘in the moment’ I was very concerned about how things were panning out & I was concerned about boarding the passenger as he now had his mobility scooter on the ramp.

yes I completely understand your attention would be elsewhere

 

[Aictos]

I was a Southern OBS for 2 years.

OBS's must step off onto the platform at each station with their key on to check if anyone needs assistance in boarding. Having the key on means they have control of that door and the train cannot depart until they have taken the key off. It also stops the door repeatedly trying to close when the ramp is down.

In this case I'm afraid the OBS was not doing his job correctly.

There is another way of keeping the door either side of the accessible toilet open WITHOUT using a key though, not many staff are aware of this method which should be shown when training on ramps which is a perfectly safe method of use.

This method only works for those two doors though and only if the driver has given a door release to that side of the train, it can be done from the inside of the carriage or the outside.

I don't know if the 717s can do it but it is possible on the entire Class 700 fleets.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Majority of them do but there is occasions when they do not. On Coastal services I almost always see them stepping off where as in the Surbuban area there is some who do not and they will wander up and down the train maybe to check tickets and then swiftly back into the back cab. To be fair the whole system makes no sense and it is disabled passengers who suffer at the end of the day. I understand their rationale for exceptional circumstances running and I am not going to start a DOO thread but they are never going to know if they do not step off unless a passenger needing assistance is left on the platform. How does Scotrail manage on the Strathclyde services I do not hear many stories of passengers being left on platforms and they have TEs who IIRC do not step on and off.

 

[Horizon22]

My question....is the OBS supposed to ‘step off’ on to the platform at all stations? I’m on a Southern route & I must say the majority do but starting to notice more than a few are not with also some disabled passengers telling me when the station is unmanned they are often ‘ignored’ as an OBS doesn’t get off the train.

Yes they are, or I believe that to certainly be the training when the role was created / transformed (and indeed it was primarily to check for assisted travel).

 

[Llanigraham]

I didn’t notice as in hindsight ‘in the moment’ I was very concerned about how things were panning out & I was concerned about boarding the passenger as he now had his mobility scooter on the ramp.

Doesn't this suggest that your training hasn't been adequate, if you didn't know the doors will close automatically?

 

[Ivor]

Yes they are, or I believe that to certainly be the training when the role was created / transformed (and indeed it was primarily to check for assisted travel).

In my ignorance can I ask does the train driver have any over riding control of doors from his cab? Or is it solely the OBS?

Anyway hopefully this scenario will rarely happen in the future & I will view it as a one off glitch.

 

[Ivor]

Doesn't this suggest that your training hasn't been adequate, if you didn't know the doors will close automatically?

Yes I have highlighted the fact of poor training in general, although I was ramped trained by a ‘Southern trainer’ which took about five minutes re placing ramps & the use of different ramps & issued an ‘official signed letter’ of competency as was the agency.

I have no problems nor do other colleagues using ramps but no add on information issued re how to handle a situation like this or H&S. It’s all very well TOCs using agencies but being a Jack of all trades & master of none even I must say does not cut it.

I understand doors close automatically but surely TOC on board staff if observant override this especially on the accessible doors?

 

[scrapy]

I thought there were some circumstances where a train could run without an OBS? If so do we know if one was on board?

 

[ComUtoR]

What type of train was this ? Was it a 700 ?

 

[paul1609]

To be honest I can't see that the procedure is any different whether its a conductor or OBS that isn't present.
Im also surprised that platform staff don't know how to stop the doors closing on the ramp. Ive never seen agency staff giving assistance on the platform on Southern either.

 

[Ivor]

What type of train was this ? Was it a 700 ?

Not a 700

It was a 377

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers Ivor.

Don't forget that different trains need different ramps. Also that different classes of trains behave in different ways. If you haven't been shown the differences, ask about and see if you can learn more and see what is, and isn't possible.

 

[Ivor]

To be honest I can't see that the procedure is any different whether its a conductor or OBS that isn't present.
Im also surprised that platform staff don't know how to stop the doors closing on the ramp. Ive never seen agency staff giving assistance on the platform on Southern either.

With respect never seen agency staff? Unless a large main line station such as Brighton, Worthing, East Croydon etc where CSA staff are Southern most other stations are covered by agency if non Gateline especially.

Mainly manned as the only staff member normally from lunchtime when many ticket offices close or are short of Southern ticket office staff through to 8/9pm & with the exception of a short break are on the platform covering CS/ramps/cleaning & having to deal with the quite frequent drunk/drugged individuals where stations seem to attract whether they want to travel or not & especially them & teens see someone on their own in a hi-viz as fair game!