Re Advance tickets and missed trains

[Bungle73]

OK, what is the situation under these circumstances? I have an advance ticket booked from Kemsley to York. This involves catching a train from Kemsley to Sittingbourne, a train from Sittingbourne to St. Pancras, then a train from King's Cross to York (on which I have a reservation). Now what happens if one (or both) of the first two trains is delayed or cancelled and I miss the train I have a reservation on? I aim to catch trains to arrive at St. Pancras earlier than intended so hopefully this shouldn't be an issue; however on my last trip my train was held up for 20 minutes due to a points failure which made me considerably anxious since at the time I had no idea how long the delay would be.

 

[sonic2009]

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

So if you get delayed coming from Kemsley to London to catch your train to York then you will be able to get the Next East Coast Service. If the Train Manager/Barrier Staff ask, you just explain for example :

Train A to B was 25 Minutes Late. So i Missed the Connection to With Train C to London.

The Staff should be able to check this with a simple telephone call/computer check

 

[Bungle73]

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

So if you get delayed coming from Kemsley to London to catch your train to York then you will be able to get the Next East Coast Service. If the Train Manager/Barrier Staff ask, you just explain for example :

Train A to B was 25 Minutes Late. So i Missed the Connection to With Train C to London.

The Staff should be able to check this with a simple telephone call/computer check

OK, thanks. That's good to know.

Does it matter that I'm using two different tickets (std advance Kemsley to York and 1st Class advance Kings Cross to York)? I purchased the first ticket a while ago, then decided to upgrade to First Class on the EC train recently. Sorry, I should have stated that in my OP.

 

[sonic2009]

OK, thanks. That's good to know.

Does it matter that I'm using two different tickets (std advance Kemsley to York and 1st Class advance Kings Cross to York)? I purchased the first ticket a while ago, then decided to upgrade to First Class on the EC train recently. Sorry, I should have stated that in my OP.

From this you mean :

You purchased a STD Advance to York orignally : Then went an bought a First Class Advance for Kings Cross to York for the same train.

 

[Bungle73]

From this you mean :

You purchased a STD Advance to York orignally : Then went an bought a First Class Advance for Kings Cross to York for the same train.

Yes, that's correct.

 

[sonic2009]

Yes, that's correct.

Then Yes I think it does complicate things a little. I'm not quite sure on this, as i don't know the in's and out's of Advance Tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you have two or more tickets valid for one journey, you are covered, provided that both tickets involve a rail journey.

However, I think technically the guard/Conductor/Train Manager could ask you to sit in both seats on the Kings Cross-York train at the same time if the tickets overlap (I doubt in this case anyone would actually notice).

Can I ask why you didn't just change the Advance to First Class rather than buying a new ticket?

If you miss the first train (rather than it being delayed) on an advance, you would have to buy a new ticket.

 

[sonic2009]

If you have two or more tickets valid for one journey, you are covered, provided that both tickets involve a rail journey.

However, I think technically the guard/Conductor/Train Manager could ask you to sit in both seats on the Kings Cross-York train at the same time if the tickets overlap (I doubt in this case anyone would actually notice).

Can I ask why you didn't just change the Advance to First Class rather than buying a new ticket?

If you miss the first train (rather than it being delayed) on an advance, you would have to buy a new ticket.

thanks for.the advice. i was stuck on what to say

 

[Bungle73]

If you have two or more tickets valid for one journey, you are covered, provided that both tickets involve a rail journey.

However, I think technically the guard/Conductor/Train Manager could ask you to sit in both seats on the Kings Cross-York train at the same time if the tickets overlap (I doubt in this case anyone would actually notice).

Great. Thanks.

Can I ask why you didn't just change the Advance to First Class rather than buying a new ticket?

Because you can't get a refund on advance tickets, and to change what I had would have incurred a £20 charge (£10 for each ticket), the first class fair is more expensive on the Southeastern (who I originally booked with) website than on East Coast's (who I booked the 1st Class tickets with), and EC were dong 1/3 off First Class tickets (this offer wasn't available when I originally booked).

If you miss the first train (rather than it being delayed) on an advance, you would have to buy a new ticket.

The station is less than a 10 minute walk away so that shouldn't be a problem, and like I said I aim to catch an earlier train anyway.

 

[button_boxer]

If you end up missing the booked train from London because of an earlier delay then the standard class ticket is definitely valid to catch the next available train. Technically you're not allowed to stop short on an advance so if you were to claim that the first class ticket was part of a split ticket journey then they could (rightly) reply that you don't have a valid ticket from your origin to London as the other half of the split.

So if you do end up delayed and want to use the first class ticket you ought to buy a walk-up ticket from your origin to London in order to make it a legitimate split...

 

[Bungle73]

If you end up missing the booked train from London because of an earlier delay then the standard class ticket is definitely valid to catch the next available train. Technically you're not allowed to stop short on an advance so if you were to claim that the first class ticket was part of a split ticket journey then they could (rightly) reply that you don't have a valid ticket from your origin to London as the other half of the split.

So if you do end up delayed and want to use the first class ticket you ought to buy a walk-up ticket from your origin to London in order to make it a legitimate split...

Couldn't I just claim I bought a ticket into London, but I don't have it anymore because the barrier at St. Pancras ate it because that was the end of the journey?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you end up missing the booked train from London because of an earlier delay then the standard class ticket is definitely valid to catch the next available train. Technically you're not allowed to stop short on an advance so if you were to claim that the first class ticket was part of a split ticket journey then they could (rightly) reply that you don't have a valid ticket from your origin to London as the other half of the split.

So if you do end up delayed and want to use the first class ticket you ought to buy a walk-up ticket from your origin to London in order to make it a legitimate split...

I disagree. (shock)

The NCoC states that you must have two or more tickets valid for the entire journey and one of three other conditions which include, the train stops where the tickets change over.

The tickets would change over at Kings cross, but both would be valid on the original train.

The only issue is how the passenger can sit in the seat reserved on both Advance fares at the same time, however, if space permits, the guard/Conductor/Train Manager can allow travel in another seat at no extra charge.

The Advance FAQs (which are in the FRPP) state that where delays occur when using two or more tickets you are covered for later travel provided both tickets include rail journeys.

If the Advances were to different destinations, I think it would be another matter, but not in this case.

 

[Bungle73]

I've just had another thought. Coming home the train I was orginally booked to get from York was the 10:55am, but the one I'm getting on the new tickets is the 14:01. Am I likely to encounter any problems on the Southeastern part of my journey once I get back to St. Pancras?

I wish now I'd just booked new tickets for the entire journey; it would have given me piece of mind. I only thought of only re-booking part because someone on here suggested it.

 

[island]

Southeastern attempts to restrict the use of Advance tickets on HS1 in peak times, with a bar M-F on up trains arriving at [stn]STP[/stn] before 0958 and on down trains departing STP between 1600 and 1859. Very dubious how enforceable this is.

 

[Bungle73]

Southeastern attempts to restrict the use of Advance tickets on HS1 in peak times, with a bar M-F on up trains arriving at [stn]STP[/stn] before 0958 and on down trains departing STP between 1600 and 1859. Very dubious how enforceable this is.

Oh. Looks like I'm going have to buy a single ticket once I reach St. Pancras. Damn! It would have only cost a few extra quid to re-book the whole journey.

 

[yorkie]

I wish now I'd just booked new tickets for the entire journey; it would have given me piece of mind. I only thought of only re-booking part because someone on here suggested it.

... but that was only because you wanted to travel in First Class accommodation on East Coast!

I would have stuck with the original tickets. FC isn't that special unless you're on trains that are wedged in standard and on a train that gives a full meal (very few do).

I don't know what trains you are getting (other than what you have said here), but the trains that start/finish at York are only £15 (I think) to upgrade on board the train. These trains are quiet and don't offer much in the way of freebies anyway. The 1401 from York is an example of such a service. In the other direction they depart King's Cross at xx08. At weekends this offer is always available.

Weekend 1st is also £15 if you're travelling at a weekend.

I realise that's too late now, but worth mentioning if anyone else is reading this and considering upgrading.

(Note that for travel for the next week or so, it's £25. The price is coming down in September).

Oh. Looks like I'm going have to buy a single ticket once I reach St. Pancras. Damn! It would have only cost a few extra quid to re-book the whole journey. ad:

I don't think a hidden restriction is enforceable. I will send you a PM, though.

 

[Bungle73]

... but that was only because you wanted to travel in First Class accommodation on East Coast!

I know, but I didn't realise it would cause complications with the rest of my journey to only re-book part. It's my own fault really; I forgot about the silly restrictions on Advance tickets when I booked the new tickets.

I would have stuck with the original tickets. FC isn't that special unless you're on trains that are wedged in standard and on a train that gives a full meal (very few do).

I felt like treating myself, and EC were doing 1/3 off FC tickets at the time

I don't know what trains you are getting (other than what you have said here), but the trains that start/finish at York are only £15 (I think) to upgrade on board the train. These trains are quiet and don't offer much in the way of freebies anyway. The 1401 from York is an example of such a service. In the other direction they depart King's Cross at xx08. At weekends this offer is always available.

Weekend 1st is also £15 if you're travelling at a weekend.

I realise that's too late now, but worth mentioning if anyone else is reading this and considering upgrading.

(Note that for travel for the next week or so, it's £25. The price is coming down in September).


I don't think a hidden restriction is enforceable. I will send you a PM, though.

I'm catching the 12:30 from KX.

You can only upgrade on the train at the weekend can't you? I'm travelling during the week. The trains that terminate at York are only every two hours; I would have booked one but the timing wasn't convenient for me to get to KX from here in time and also have a reasonable amount of time left to stuff once I get to York.

Thanks for your PM.

 

[yorkie]

You can only upgrade on the train at the weekend can't you? I'm travelling during the week. The trains that terminate at York are only every two hours; I would have booked one but the timing wasn't convenient for me to get to KX from here in time and also have a reasonable amount of time left to stuff once I get to York.

To clarify:
- First Class upgrade available on every train at weekends (subject to availability of course)
- First Class upgrade available on York terminators any day (the 14:01 from York, which you later booked with your 2nd ticket, is an example of one of those trains. I see you are on the 12:30 the other way, the nearest train to that would be 13:08)
- First Class isn't really worth paying a huge amount extra for (see the long-running thread in NR General)
- I think that, for someone who requires 100% peace of mind and has sufficient cash to spare to buy duplicate tickets and isn't happy with the conditions of Advance tickets, nor happy with interpreting those conditions liberally, I would strongly recommend "walk on" (non-Advance) tickets for all future journeys. That would avoid these problems re-occuring.

I do not know how much your replacement 1st tickets cost, but it is likely that it would have been cheaper for you to simply turn up on the day and get a Super Off Peak Rtn for immediate travel (this would suit your requirement of arriving at 14:30, indeed you can arrive as early as 11:33 on this ticket!, and would have suited your return journey at 14:01, or 13:55 to save some time with a non-stop train back), and 1st class upgrades if you chose to get the London <> York terminating trains, than the entire cost of the tickets you ended up buying.

It's your choice but based on your views on Advance tickets and requirements to change travel plans I do not think they are suitable for you.

 

[Bungle73]

It's not like I'm booking Advance fares, then changing my plans every day. This was a one-off. I booked Advance fares for a previous trip to York in May and that went very smoothly (apart from some cancelled and delayed train grief).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK, I've looked around and it seems I should have no issues using my Advance tickets on evening peak HS1 services. These threads seem to indicate this:

https://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/browse_thread/thread/08a4be6bd1637b99?fwc=1&hl=en&pli=1


http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28237

Also there's nothing about any restrictions for Advance tickets on HS1 services on Southeastern's website.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly, I doubt you will have problems Follow the advice in my PM and you should be ok (There is a friendly HS1 guard on this forum, you may even have him as your guard!)

 

[All Line Rover]

I don't know what trains you are getting (other than what you have said here), but the trains that start/finish at York are only £15 (I think) to upgrade on board the train. These trains are quiet and don't offer much in the way of freebies anyway. The 1401 from York is an example of such a service. In the other direction they depart King's Cross at xx08. At weekends this offer is always available.

Weekend 1st is also £15 if you're travelling at a weekend.

I realise that's too late now, but worth mentioning if anyone else is reading this and considering upgrading.

(Note that for travel for the next week or so, it's £25. The price is coming down in September).

Really? Where did you get this information?

A midweek upgrade is quite a bargain for £15! The cheapest Standard Class Advance ticket costs £10.35. The cheapest First Class Advance ticket costs £39.50. So if you buy a Standard Class ticket and purchase the upgrade on-board that's £25.35. If customers can do that, how on earth can East Coast justify selling First Class Advance tickets!?

I am also surprised that the weekend upgrade is going down in price. I've always thought it was a rip-off at £25, but to lower the price once "complimentary" food and drink has been introduced is certainly unexpected.

 

[yorkie]

Really? Where did you get this information?

The upgrade was announced on board, and I am sure I was either told - or read somewhere - that the price is the same as Weekend 1st, which has just been reduced to £15 from London to York. I can't find any mention of this on the East Coast site.

Edit: After extensive research, I found that YorkshireRider (who works for EC) reported back in May that he heard it was the same price as weekend 1st (which was £25 to York/£20 to stations to Doncaster but is reducing to £15). If it was the same as Weekend First that would reduce it to £15 in the new fares, however he posted a correction stating that it's a "flat fare" of £20. Therefore, it may not have had a reduction, so may remain at £20 rather than £15. (in my defence I did say "I think" as I wasn't sure of the exact amount ) If it does remain at £20, that means it would previously have been cheaper to upgrade during the week than at a weekend to York (yes, really!), but would now be cheaper at a weekend.

So, all I can say for certain is that the upgrade to York was £25, and £20 during the week, but is now going to be £15 at weekends, and perhaps still £20 during the week or maybe that's reducing to £15 as well, I do not know.

Either way, it makes a separate Standard Advance + upgrade cheaper - though with absolutely no guarantee of a seat in 1st, though the York terminators will be quiet in 1st so you should be fine on those during the week. I do not know why you are so shocked that splitting may be cheaper though

 

[jetice]

OK, what is the situation under these circumstances? I have an advance ticket booked from Kemsley to York. This involves catching a train from Kemsley to Sittingbourne, a train from Sittingbourne to St. Pancras, then a train from King's Cross to York (on which I have a reservation). Now what happens if one (or both) of the first two trains is delayed or cancelled and I miss the train I have a reservation on? I aim to catch trains to arrive at St. Pancras earlier than intended so hopefully this shouldn't be an issue; however on my last trip my train was held up for 20 minutes due to a points failure which made me considerably anxious since at the time I had no idea how long the delay would be.

When you say you aim to catch trains to arrive at St Pancras earlier than intended do you mean you intend to travel on an earlier train than your booked one? if so that is not allowed. If a connection is missed you are entitled to catch next available service as long as a late train caused the delay.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To clarify:
- First Class upgrade available on every train at weekends (subject to availability of course)
- First Class upgrade available on York terminators any day (the 14:01 from York, which you later booked with your 2nd ticket, is an example of one of those trains. I see you are on the 12:30 the other way, the nearest train to that would be 13:08)
- First Class isn't really worth paying a huge amount extra for (see the long-running thread in NR General)
- I think that, for someone who requires 100% peace of mind and has sufficient cash to spare to buy duplicate tickets and isn't happy with the conditions of Advance tickets, nor happy with interpreting those conditions liberally, I would strongly recommend "walk on" (non-Advance) tickets for all future journeys. That would avoid these problems re-occuring.

I do not know how much your replacement 1st tickets cost, but it is likely that it would have been cheaper for you to simply turn up on the day and get a Super Off Peak Rtn for immediate travel (this would suit your requirement of arriving at 14:30, indeed you can arrive as early as 11:33 on this ticket!, and would have suited your return journey at 14:01, or 13:55 to save some time with a non-stop train back), and 1st class upgrades if you chose to get the London <> York terminating trains, than the entire cost of the tickets you ended up buying.

It's your choice but based on your views on Advance tickets and requirements to change travel plans I do not think they are suitable for you.

Are you sure upgrades to First Class are available on the TOC's concerned? Weekend First upgrades are not available to Advance fare passengers at my TOC! If you have an Advance ticket you travel on train booked and no upgrades available.

 

[yorkie]

When you say you aim to catch trains to arrive at St Pancras earlier than intended do you mean you intend to travel on an earlier train than your booked one? if so that is not allowed. If a connection is missed you are entitled to catch next available service as long as a late train caused the delay

This matter has been debated in numerous topics before, and the general consensus is that an earlier connecting train can be caught. The trains in question are not "booked" trains.

Are you sure upgrades to First Class are available on the TOC's concerned? Weekend First upgrades are not available to Advance fare passengers at my TOC! If you have an Advance ticket you travel on train booked and no upgrades available.

Yes, First Class upgrades are available to all customers (space permitting) on East Coast, which is a sensible policy (otherwise they'd be carting yet more fresh air around in FC and turning money away most of the time - wouldn't make sense!)

 

[Bungle73]

I made the journey today. No problems at all. The ticket wouldn't work the barrier at St. Pancras, but I showed it the guy there and he sad that's fine and let me through. The train was a double one (2 sets of six carriages) and the guard was in the rear set so I didn't have to show it on the train.

I don't think I'll be trying that trick again though.